Is Kidd out of gas? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-15-2011, 08:07 AM

This, to me, is the biggest concern right now outside of Dirk coming back. I realize that he doesn't have anyone worthy to pass to right now, but he's been pretty terrible lately. 6 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds on not even worth mentioning percentages in the last 5 games. If the old man used his last life, then we're in a lot bigger hole than we realize.

Discuss...

deamon · 01-15-2011, 08:24 AM

He was already out of gas in December. Too many minutes for him. That's why we need better backup than Barea.
DevinHarriswillback

rabbitproof · 01-15-2011, 08:26 AM

It could be a legs issue.

I am hoping it is a heart issue, despite all the connotations it may be bring, simply because that is reparable.

Kidd truly battled in the first Dirk-less Spurs game as Dirk noted when he helped with commentary. With Butler removed, and after a few 38 minute lost causes, it appears he views this current ailment unsolvable with the available internal tools.

Kante · 01-15-2011, 09:14 AM

He just sees that there is not much chance to win games against the Spurs and right now every other game, so he does not play with 100%.

FINtastic · 01-15-2011, 09:23 AM

I'm not sure if it's really a gas issue as much as maybe age finally creeping up to him. But I think the Mavs should look into cutting his minutes a little bit more to see if some rest can get his mojo working again. This is all the more reason why the Mavericks should look into giving Dojo a shot at some playing time until Roddy gets back.

dalger · 01-15-2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

It could be a legs issue.

I am hoping it is a heart issue, despite all the connotations it may be bring, simply because that is reparable.

Kidd truly battled in the first Dirk-less Spurs game as Dirk noted when he helped with commentary. With Butler removed, and after a few 38 minute lost causes, it appears he views this current ailment unsolvable with the available internal tools.

I think (and hope, of course) this is the reason. As you mentioned, Kidd played his ass off in the game against the Spurs at home, just like he did against OKC after Dirk had injured his knee. He's still got it and just has to make sure not to use what's left in hopeless games. Playing in San Antonio without Dirk, Roddy and Caron is as hopeless as it gets.

We can't expect an almost 38-year-old man to carry the Mavs in a situation like this one. If he couldn't carry us for 32 minutes with Dirk, Roddy and Caron's potential replacement on the floor, it would be a problem. Lucikly, the first 29 games of the season didn't indicate that, otherwise we wouldn't have had a 24-5 record.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to have a better backup point guard. I just wouldn't base the need on the last nine games where Kidd and everyone else was severely affected by all the injuries. After all, it's no picnic in the park to be the Mavs' point guard without Dirk, Caron and Roddy.

Ninkobei · 01-15-2011, 10:02 AM

Kidd does need to replaced sooner or later. I have no idea how the mavs plan on doing that.. Kidd has what, maybe 1 year left of high quality play? IMO Kidd's role should be an off-the-bench PG. Maybe split 50/50 with someone. But there is no one else, so dallas has to lean on him hard which may shorten his usefulness in the long run.

Underdog · 01-15-2011, 10:14 AM

I mentioned this in another thread a few days back, but we definitely need a better backup for our 37-year-old point guard PG than Barea. We just can't afford to give Kidd much rest when JJB stinks it up every time he touches the floor.

After acquiring another forward to replace Butler, our biggest priority should be finding a new backup PG (or future starting PG - I'd love to bring Devin Harris back!)

mavs777 · 01-15-2011, 12:20 PM

Kind of funny, that when Barea has got his 3 point shot back he is sucking even more

JHT · 01-15-2011, 12:26 PM

He really needs to have a much more limited role. I mean a lot more limited. I love Kidd but even before Dirk and Butler went down he was not playing particularly well. He can no longer score at all and he's not nearly as good defensively as he was last year. It's gotten bad. Even his 3 point shot is gone.

That's why the pursuit of Devin Harris makes so much sense. The Mavs need a point guard who's good enough to split time with Kidd. Not someone who is just going to play backup minutes but someone who can play heavy minutes, even in crunch time at the point. Barea is fine for 10-12 minutes a night, but we need a 24 minute a night PG. Kidd needs to be playing 24 minutes or so a night and not much more at this stage. He can still be a really nice asset but to rely on him as if he's a top tier point guard still is doom.

BGMaverick9 · 01-15-2011, 01:28 PM

Father time is undefeated...he'll eventually catch Kidd.

I just think he's getting overworked in the past couple of weeks. The shooting was struggling before that, but it easily could have just been a slump.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-15-2011, 01:44 PM

I remember when dreaming after the SA series was lost that Kidd would start the first 20 games of this season and slowly but surely hand the reigns over to Roddy.

Oh how things didn't go that way...

SMC0007 · 01-15-2011, 03:31 PM

In the playoffs no one is going to honor his shot in a PnR, they will stay under and dare him to shoot. Luckily our offense doesn't rely too heavily on that.

fluid.forty.one · 01-15-2011, 04:22 PM

If Roddy comes back around the same time as Dirk (and he plays decently) then it might be a good idea to rest Kidd for a couple games.

CadBane · 01-15-2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

In the playoffs no one is going to honor his shot in a PnR, they will stay under and dare him to shoot. Luckily our offense doesn't rely too heavily on that.

I agree with the first part. Unfortunately it's not just confined to the PnR. Teams are going to double Dirk hard in the playoffs because they know Kidd can't make them pay.

BGMaverick9 · 01-15-2011, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

If Roddy comes back around the same time as Dirk (and he plays decently) then it might be a good idea to rest Kidd for a couple games.

I'm not sure how far Roddy is from coming back, it definitely is a good sign to see him planting and cutting. He'll still need to do conditioning tests, contact drills and etc.

I have nothing to verify a estimate so it's just a guess. I'm trying to see a potential stretch that correlates with a homestand in Frisco, maybe the first weekend of Feb. gets him a game in Frisco and then the game against Cleveland could be a return.

kg_veteran · 01-15-2011, 05:35 PM

Kidd looks to me like he's biding his time.

Bayliss · 01-15-2011, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Kidd looks to me like he's biding his time.

But is to the glue factory? That is the concern.....

kg_veteran · 01-15-2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

But is to the glue factory? That is the concern.....

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

Bayliss · 01-15-2011, 05:49 PM

I just hope that effort is more than I saw in the playofs last year.

BGMaverick9 · 01-15-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

I just hope that effort is more than I saw in the playofs last year.

Not having an illness would definitely help but I agree.

FINtastic · 01-15-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

Yeah, but does that explain his poor shooting? His drop in 3 pt percentage is the scariest part for me as it really downgrades his impact on the offense.

kg_veteran · 01-15-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Yeah, but does that explain his poor shooting? His drop in 3 pt percentage is the scariest part for me as it really downgrades his impact on the offense.

With Dirk in the lineup he was shooting .348 from 3-point range. Not lights out, but certainly acceptable.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-15-2011, 11:11 PM

FINtastic · 01-15-2011, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

With Dirk in the lineup he was shooting .348 from 3-point range. Not lights out, but certainly acceptable.

The problem with that is it's his one way to score. If you are going to be a one-dimensional scorer, you kinda need to be better than acceptable at it.

JHT · 01-16-2011, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

No, I think he's biding his time while the team gets healthy. I'd rather him give 80% now and 100% in the playoffs.

So the team needs him more than ever... and Kidd decides he's only going to give 80%? If that's true, then he needs to be gone. I'd rather have Barea playing 48 minutes in that case.

kg_veteran · 01-16-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

So the team needs him more than ever... and Kidd decides he's only going to give 80%? If that's true, then he needs to be gone. I'd rather have Barea playing 48 minutes in that case.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Yours is illogical and sadomasochistic, but to each his own...

Popeye · 01-16-2011, 03:10 PM

I don't think he's mailing it in, or he's necessarily out of gas. He's just a pretty limited player at this point and he's not going to be effective playing with a bunch of offensively challenged players. It's not like he's ever been able to break down a defense or create his own shot, at least not in the past 3 years. So he'll probably look better once Roddy and Dirk are back and at full speed.

Or he could be completely done. I dunno. He is 37.

clutch#41 · 01-16-2011, 03:44 PM

if kidd is out of gas, then whats wrong with jason terry???

wilmtalk · 01-17-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutch#41

if kidd is out of gas, then whats wrong with jason terry???

Jet is Jet. He is and has always been streaky. Like the "Girl with the curl". When he is good he is very very good. But when he's bad he is awful. He can never be relied on for consistant min.

Kidd is another matter. Perhaps the other shoe has finally dropped. Kidd really is very relient now on the players around him. Chandler is a real plus for him. Two years ago posters were claiming that Kidd made Dirk better. I have always believed that Dirk made Kidd better. Dirks shooting% actually went down while Kidds 3pt % shot way up. Kidd hasn't had the skill set that most of you believed he possessed for some time now. He is still possesses the one skill that the Mavs really need and thats ball movement. And for that reason he really is esential for the offense to function smoothly. Chandler skills are able to compensate for Kidds obvious defensive libilitys while Dirk does the same for Kidds offensive libilitys. The Kidd you see now is almost the same Kidd that has been there for some time but without Dirk to compensate. Put a healthy Dirk back on the floor and only then will we see if his skills have diminished farther.

cuckold · 01-17-2011, 07:13 AM

kidd still has some fuel left in the tank!

Kidd Karma · 01-17-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Popeye

I don't think he's mailing it in, or he's necessarily out of gas. He's just a pretty limited player at this point and he's not going to be effective playing with a bunch of offensively challenged players. It's not like he's ever been able to break down a defense or create his own shot, at least not in the past 3 years. So he'll probably look better once Roddy and Dirk are back and at full speed.

Or he could be completely done. I dunno. He is 37.

You lose your top 2 players, the guys left standing are not going to be 500 in this league. Take Duncan and Manu from the Spurs, take Lebron and Wade from the Heat, take Durant and Westbrook from the Thunder, Pau and Kobe from the Lakers. I don't think any of those teams in that group would be better than 2-7. After that first Spurs game, Kidd realized they don't have a hell's chance in winning, I think he shut it down. Hopefully he can turn it back on. I think RC has to start limiting Kidd's minutes going forward. Brass needs to bring in a Caron replacement.

EricaLubarsky · 01-17-2011, 12:25 PM

Kidd is done in the halfcourt. He's still got a season left in him when leading a primary secondary break. When we rebound, Kidd is effective. When we don't, Kidd sits out at the threepoint line without any offensive movement.

Something to think about-- Im not sure Carlisle thinks about it when he has us play the zone.

deamon · 01-17-2011, 05:59 PM

10-46 in last 6 games, 22%. Even worse than Haywood FTs.
I think his son would shoot better.
His dishes are poor right now, he just passes to covered or even doubled Nowitzki: ,,Dirk please do something".
Kidd STEP UP or go retire.

Bayliss · 01-17-2011, 06:02 PM

Kidd is pretty much done.

clutch#41 · 01-17-2011, 06:04 PM

kidd is more than out of gas. i think that he already has his retirement plans and AARP plans set up ready to go.

rabbitproof · 01-17-2011, 06:06 PM

Paging Windmill....... need a sig update!

Underdog · 01-17-2011, 06:08 PM

0-7 for 0 points is bad.

He did get 13 assists though, so he's not "done" - he just needs more rest than Barea's increasingly bad play can allow. The guy put in 36 minutes today, most on the team by 5...

rabbitproof · 01-17-2011, 06:10 PM

Kidd doesn't quite feel like a starter anymore. I can see him playing 24 minutes on a championship squad. If he is to be a starter, he better be the 5th best starter on the team (ala Fisher on the Lakers or Arroyo on the Heat).

Kidd Karma · 01-17-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Kidd doesn't quite feel like a starter anymore. I can see him playing 24 minutes on a championship squad. If he is to be a starter, he better be the 5th best starter on the team (ala Fisher on the Lakers or Arroyo on the Heat).

Before the injuries,

Dirk, Caron, Tyson, Deshawn......ehhhh, maybe Kidd goes ahead of Deshawn, but pretty close.

Now today

Dirk, Kid, Jet, Marion, Wood.

I see what you mean.