Is Kidd out of gas? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Kidd Karma · 01-17-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

0-7 for 0 points is bad.

He did get 13 assists though, so he's not "done" - he just needs more rest than Barea's increasingly bad play can allow. The guy put in 36 minutes today, most on the team by 5...

0 points from this starting lineup is pathetic, he knows he's in a slump, great ones know he has to attack the hoop and turn a 24 footer into a 15 footer. 15 footer much easier than a 24 footer. This is something Dirk, RC, Jet has to tell him, he's just settling on the 24 footers, pump it, then dribble in. Agreed, 13 assists on a day like this is not an indication of an empty tank. 36 minutes is way too much and if RC is tryiing his best to win with the effort today, he's doing the team a disservice by not getting Kidd and Dirk out of there with no more than 30 minutes.

clutch#41 · 01-17-2011, 06:21 PM

IMO JKidd shouldnt even be a starting point guard in the league. he would be a better backup getting 15-20 mins agame. And then Barrea shouldnt even be in the NBA. wonder what it would take to get harris back??

Underdog · 01-17-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutch#41

wonder what it would take to get harris back??

Kidd Karma · 01-17-2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutch#41

IMO JKidd shouldnt even be a starting point guard in the league. he would be a better backup getting 15-20 mins agame. And then Barrea shouldnt even be in the NBA. wonder what it would take to get harris back??

Probably next to nothing, if Avery had anything to say about it.

DMOC · 01-17-2011, 06:46 PM

I do think Kidd is almost out of gas. That EMPTY gauge is nearing ....

cowdog80 · 01-17-2011, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMOC

I do think Kidd is almost out of gas. That EMPTY gauge is nearing ....

When he was traded for, everybody knew it would come time to pay the piper eventually. That was meant as a "win now" trade 3 years ago (which obviously didn't upgrade the team as much as hoped) - with little regard whether this team would be good enough to start 24-5 a few years later.

Kidd Karma · 01-17-2011, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowdog80

When he was traded for, everybody knew it would come time to pay the piper eventually. That was meant as a "win now" trade 3 years ago (which obviously didn't upgrade the team as much as hoped) - with little regard whether this team would be good enough to start 24-5 a few years later.

Since Kidd they've added Butler, Marion, Tyson, Wood. Barring the injuries, this was a championship caliber team, without glaring weaknesses, RC played the depth as well as he could evey night. Once he found Stevenson was the right fit, we took off, we found something inside. Right now, given the injuries, we've more or less depleted our depth. Remember we were hunting for Haslem and Harrington, brass didn't feel too comfortable with our depth after the top 3 f's. Now with one gone, I think it should be obvious to brass what we need. I mean if we were chasing probably the top 2 mid tier F's out there, it should speak volumes now.

CadBane · 01-17-2011, 08:17 PM

Like I said, Kidd is no better than Fisher right now. He shouldn't be starting for anyone.

A starting PG simply cannot be THAT offensively atrocious.

8 PPG on 34/32 shooting while going to the line 0.9 times a game is pathetic and not NBA caliber.

JHT · 01-17-2011, 10:12 PM

It's not just his scoring. Every facet of his game is terrible. He sucks on defense, he can't pass, he can't make plays, he isn't really getting any steals... he is bringing less than nothing to this team.

They'd almost be better off giving his minutes to Barea. At least Barea can score a little once in awhile. Really they need to completely rework the offense though so they aren't so dependent on Kidd's decision making and ability to make the right, perfect pass (which he no longer seems to have).

dude1394 · 01-17-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Kidd is done in the halfcourt. He's still got a season left in him when leading a primary secondary break. When we rebound, Kidd is effective. When we don't, Kidd sits out at the threepoint line without any offensive movement.

Something to think about-- Im not sure Carlisle thinks about it when he has us play the zone.

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post. He hits cutters, he still handles the ball a ton in the half court. What he doesn't do is break down that defense himself and score.

He sure as hell needs to get that 3-point shot fixed but saying he's done in the halfcourt seems a stretch to me. Look at the difference in the looks everyone gets when jkiddo is in there versus jjb for example, night and day.

And sure you can say it's because jjb stinks, but that's not the point, he just doesn't make the passes that jkiddo does.

mac222b · 01-17-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post. He hits cutters, he still handles the ball a ton in the half court. What he doesn't do is break down that defense himself and score.

He sure as hell needs to get that 3-point shot fixed but saying he's done in the halfcourt seems a stretch to me. Look at the difference in the looks everyone gets when jkiddo is in there versus jjb for example, night and day.

And sure you can say it's because jjb stinks, but that's not the point, he just doesn't make the passes that jkiddo does.

i mostly agree with this. someone said above (ericalubarsky?) that this team needs to rebound better and run more. everyone is energized by some easy transition buckets. if Kidd can start hitting on say 38-40% of his 3's again that would really open things up and we'd all be thinking much more highly of the guy. Kidd seems run down and way off but let's give it a few games with Dirk and Tyson back before we start ringing his death toll...

SMC0007 · 01-17-2011, 10:57 PM

Kidd is never going to get back the ability to get past his man so we will be handicapped in that area. There will be no probing around with the ball creating mismatches like CP3 or Nash. He will never again be a good finisher which is probably the reason he doesn't try to penetrate. He just stands around the perimeter passing the ball. With the ball, he poses 1 threat, and thats to pass accurately to an open player if there is one. He is pretty much done being an outstanding defender on the ball especially vs quick PG's which are almost ALL of them. There are things he is still very good at but the offense lacks some weapons with him being so one dimensional right now especially considering his backup.

Bayliss · 01-17-2011, 11:00 PM

Quote:

but let's give it a few games with Dirk and Tyson back before we start ringing his death toll...

That ringing I hear may not be his death toll but my tinnitus.... but damn if it aint gotten louder in the last month.

JHT · 01-17-2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm not so sure about that. What he does is put the ball right on the guy cutting from behind the basket. He also puts the ball right into dirks sweetspot on the post.

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

dude1394 · 01-18-2011, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

No what it sounds like is a bunch of folks who see a team that is struggling, think they know the answer is always different personnel and yacking about it. This same team plus caron was kicking everyones ass this year. So if jkiddo sucks now then he sucked then when they were kicking everyones ass. Now I don't think anyone is going to say that Caron is some sort of superstar, but the stew was right.

No one is saying hes playing great or anything..but when you have everyone on the team going 0-6 and such crap, he looks really,really bad. He's not an offensive guy so if that occurs he'll look really bad.

Him stepping in to take a shorter 2 than a 3 doesn't make any sense either, he's become a spot-up shooter and that's what he needs to hit. He isn't, jet isn't, jjb isn't, steve isn't...dirk finally came back and jkiddo helps him get to 20+ points.

And no not everyone can get it to dirk when he needs it and where he needs it so that he can just rise up and shoot it.

SMC0007 · 01-18-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

He hasn't been doing that. Not lately anyway. I guess he's getting it to Dirk but anybody can do that.

Even a lot of his passes to guys around the arc, wide open have been bad. There were at least two or three times in the game tonight where he threw what should have been an easy pass to a guy standing on the arc and the ball was slightly off target and went spinning out of the receiver's hands into the stands.

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are.

This is starting to sound like the "Dampier sets good picks" defense.

Idk man, I get the frustration but I'm not seeing the same things as you as far as the passing goes. I think he's still passing fine it's just as I mentioned earlier, it's the only threat right now when he has the ball. He can't get past his man even occasionally, they know this so they can slack off and crowd the floor up a bit so it's really hurting us that he isn't making them pay by knocking down shots. Maybe too late at this point, maybe not but needs to work harder on taking shots that aren't set up wide open looks. If he doesn't have his feet set in a stationary spot then he doesn't seem to have much a chance. It damn sure doesn't look very comfortable, fluid or pretty.

dude1394 · 01-18-2011, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHT

To say nothing of actually hitting cutters... assuming there ever are any cutters, which there almost never are..

Never are since dirk/caron has been out..Spacing is a little tighter right about now.

dude1394 · 01-18-2011, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Idk man, I get the frustration but I'm not seeing the same things as you as far as the passing goes. I think he's still passing fine it's just as I mentioned earlier, but it's the only threat right now when he has the ball. He can't get past his man even occasionally, they know this so they can slack off and crowd the floor up a bit so it's really hurting us that he isn't making them pay by knocking down shots. Maybe too late at this point, maybe not but needs to work harder on taking shots that aren't set up wide open looks. If he doesn't have his feet set then he doesn't seem to have much a chance. It damn sure doesn't look very comfortable, fluid or pretty.

Yes..he needs to take shots that he can make..and those are when his feet are set and he's open. That's why he needs more offense around him...he cannot dribble and pull up for a jumper, just cannot so live with it. But the team runs a hell of a lot better when he has the ball in his hand than it does with JJB OR Jet for that matter.

How did you like the way the pistons pressed jet and he retreated like a scared turtle. THAT's why he cannot play point.

SMC0007 · 01-18-2011, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yes..he needs to take shots that he can make..and those are when his feet are set and he's open. That's why he needs more offense around him...he cannot dribble and pull up for a jumper, just cannot so live with it. But the team runs a hell of a lot better when he has the ball in his hand than it does with JJB OR Jet for that matter.

How did you like the way the pistons pressed jet and he retreated like a scared turtle. THAT's why he cannot play point.

yeah Jet did

I'm kind of stubborn I guess, I don't think Kidd should settle for not being able to dust of the pull up J or a makeshift runner

. I know his age kinda holds him back from penetration but if he posed a threat offensively otherwise especially pulling up in the lane then big guys would eventually step up and no doubt Kidd could then do what he does best and find the open guy. With Chandler, Marion , Mahinmi sometimes it's best to get something up on the rim or around it.

Underdog · 01-18-2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

yeah Jet did

I'm kind of stubborn I guess, I don't think Kidd should settle for not being able to dust of the pull up J or a makeshift runner

. I know his age kinda holds him back from penetration but if he posed a threat offensively otherwise especially pulling up in the lane then big guys would eventually step up and no doubt Kidd could then do what he does best and find the open guy. With Chandler, Marion , Mahinmi sometimes it's best to get something up on the rim or around it.

I think Kidd fears contact sometimes - he seems paranoid of getting injured (which is understandable at his age, since the next could be the last...)

dude1394 · 01-18-2011, 12:29 AM

I just think that jkiddo knows he cannot shoot on the run at all. Maybe he never has been able to, I think that's been the knock on him.

How any guy with the hands he has can continue to not make layups is beyond me, but he doesn't and cannot.

BGMaverick9 · 01-18-2011, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think Kidd fears contact sometimes - he seems paranoid of getting injured (which is understandable at his age, since the next could be the last...)

I think this is valid to an extent. He certainly picks his spots, the biggest example of this is him posting up. Me and Rhylan have discussed the theory that he doesn't do that (despite his strength over most pgs) is the wear and tear it puts on his body to do it on a consistent basis.

Underdog · 01-18-2011, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I think this is valid to an extent. He certainly picks his spots, the biggest example of this is him posting up. Me and Rhylan have discussed the theory that he doesn't do that (despite his strength over most pgs) is the wear and tear it puts on his body to do it on a consistent basis.

Yeah, he doesn't seem to have a problem diving around for loose balls, but he almost never goes into the lane where he can draw contact. He's only attempted 34 FT's in 40 games this season, which is a damn shame because he's nailed 30 of those attempts - we could really use that kind of FT accuracy to get easy points right about now.

SMC0007 · 01-18-2011, 12:55 AM

I think the diving for loose balls in some situations is uncontrollable, it's just a reaction. HE can't help himself. The competitor comes out and that is his instinct and there's no thinking about self preservation involved no time to. There is something to be said about the older you get the more you want to preserve what you have... body, money, etc. Thats not the way Hunter S Thompson would want it.

cowdog80 · 01-18-2011, 08:42 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about his 3ball%. People forget that Kidd has never been a great shooter. His last 2 years were the BEST in his career. Shooting 32% is something that he has actually done before - back in '04 during what was viewed as the "prime" of his career (the season after he finished 2nd in MVP vote).

The bigger concern is the overall terrible FG% (back in '04 he could still get buckets in transition and do work on smaller guards in the low post*) and an inability to get to the FT line - the latter of which probably isn't come back much at this stage in his career.'

* San Antonio has let Parker guard him the post without help the last 2 years - tells you all you need to know about how much (or little) opponents still respect that aspect of his game.

Justafix · 01-18-2011, 09:04 AM

It's not like he's pulling up from the dribble. Kidd takes only wideopen threes and one or two halfcourt heaves at the end of a quarter per game.

The Mavs Offensive Game is not that hard to get to the hump. 10 Points from the PG, 10 Points from the Center, 25 from Dirk, 35 from the Bench = enough to win if the SG and SF could score 20 combined. At least that's the Gameplan.

dalmations202 · 01-18-2011, 09:07 AM

What would it take to get Deron right now? Give Kidd a break and let Kidd play both the backup PG and some SG as well. (if Utah didn't want him in the trade)

If you are going to use assets while Dirk is in his prime -- why not think BIG. Outside of Chandler and Dirk, I can't think of anyone I wouldn't include if the deal were right.

cowdog80 · 01-18-2011, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

What would it take to get Deron right now? Give Kidd a break and let Kidd play both the backup PG and some SG as well. (if Utah didn't want him in the trade)

If you are going to use assets while Dirk is in his prime -- why not think BIG. Outside of Chandler and Dirk, I can't think of anyone I wouldn't include if the deal were right.

Deron? Think Dirk + Roddy + picks and Utah still probably says "absolutely not!!!"

There is probably not a single combination of current assets (forget keeping any quality behind) that the Mavs FO could put together to make Utah seriously consider trading Williams.

dalmations202 · 01-18-2011, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowdog80

Deron? Think Dirk + Roddy + picks and Utah still probably says "absolutely not!!!"

Utah puts Deron above Dirk's level?

really??

cowdog80 · 01-18-2011, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Utah puts Deron above Dirk's level?

really??

Absolutely. You can argue which player is better/more productive (most people would probably say Dirk) - but DWill is 6 years younger.

Rick41 · 01-18-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Utah puts Deron above Dirk's level?

really??

I think not. But I'm sure Deron is pretty much untouchable.

dalger · 01-18-2011, 02:42 PM

Despite the fact that Kidd's shooting is quite concerning and his age could be a factor down the road as well, I'm just not willing to call him done after what's been happening since late December. Until then and with Kidd, we were good enough to kick any team's ass, sometimes even twice, Miami included. Now, only three weeks later, we're all of a sudden done because Kidd's done?

If this were to continue with Chandler, Dirk, Roddy and Caron's replacement in the lineup at a 100%, I would be as uneasy as anyone. Not now. The last couple of weeks were so unfortunate that it's impossible to draw any wise conclusions based on it. Except for two of them: 1) Caron's contract has to be used to bring in another forward; 2) Roddy better play an important role on offense.

Underdog · 01-19-2011, 11:22 PM

21/10 - Jason Kidd says "hi".

Bayliss · 01-19-2011, 11:27 PM

He had a good game. But let's see if it was a trend.

FINtastic · 01-19-2011, 11:27 PM

Looks like Kidd topped off his tank before the game.

Underdog · 01-19-2011, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

He had a good game. But let's see if it was a trend.

His worst games happened while Dirk was injured, so it probably stands that the inverse is likely as well...

CadBane · 01-19-2011, 11:37 PM

One game. A band-aid on a gaping wound does little for me. Kidd is still shooting 34/31 (before tonight) and that just will not cut it. He was wide open all night until he finally got into a groove. He has to start CONSISTENTLY bringing something to the table on offense because teams don't respect him at all. He had literally 10 seconds to shoot a couple threes tonight. I don't expect him to have nights like this routinely (though every week or two would be nice). But until he starts hitting shots consistently, he's still out of gas or call it what you will, but a problem.