Should the Mavs trade KP based on this Data - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dallas41 · 02-01-2021, 10:18 AM

I highly encourage everyone to read to this data on KP and ask yourself should the Mavs consider trading KP now or wait to see if RC can fix some of these issues.

Can Kristaps Porzingis be a legit second scoring option on a title contending team?

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2021/2...ontending-team

Before diving into the analysis it’s important to understand the data points used. I compared Porzingis to 10 other stars across six categories. Porzingis is such a unique player that it’s hard to define a position for him. He plays like a wing on offense and a big man on defense. This is why I compared him to five big men and five wing players. I selected big men who have a similar ability to shoot the ball from long range.

The six stat categories I analyzed were: traditional stats, scoring efficiency, shot creation, shot type, shot accuracy, and defense & rebounding.

turin · 02-01-2021, 10:29 AM

I wouldn't trade him. You'd be selling him cheap right now. What he needs is a different approach on offense, and that means a new coach imo.

Dallas41 · 02-01-2021, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turin

I wouldn't trade him. You'd be selling him cheap right now. What he needs is a different approach on offense, and that means a new coach imo.

Yeah I find it odd that over the years fans have raved about RC taking average players and making them better

Yet with KP you very rarely here that praise about RC.

You have to ask yourself and this is for all the RC supporters should he get some of the blame because he hasn't exactly found ways to make KP more efficient in Dallas.

I personally believe they have refused to study Dirk and how he was effective. I'm not saying KP is Dirk but I think there are some things you can take away from your years with Dirk that could help KP offensively to become more efficient.

They could start by reducing the number of 3's he takes to start off games.

They need to run more set plays and stop the free wheeling offense early that would allow RC to dictate where KP's shots come from to get him involved.

What ever happened to the Mid Area post from the FT Line that used for Dirk so effectively?

It allowed Dirk to see double teams coming much better and it took advantage of his strong mid range game.

Anyone remember that Dirk Iconic drive from the Ft Line in that game 7 vs the Spurs where he gets the bucket and the foul on Bruce Bowen?

Also does anyone recall Dirk and Nash often working out together to learn each other's best spots on the court and to help develop that bound?

Why doesn't Luka and KP have that same desire to fix this thing by getting more work in together?

And last but not least why haven't the Mavs contacted Holger to work with KP?

turin · 02-01-2021, 11:00 AM

As far as the "average player playing better." People forget that there are only 5 players on the court. If your starters are average NBA players, then they will look above average stat-wise. Just a fact. Sombody has to get those stats in a game.

turin · 02-01-2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Yeah I find it odd that over the years fans have raved about RC taking average players and making them better

Yet with KP you very rarely here that praise about RC.

You have to ask yourself and this is for all the RC supporters should he get some of the blame because he hasn't exactly found ways to make KP more efficient in Dallas.

I personally believe they have refused to study Dirk and how he was effective. I'm not saying KP is Dirk but I think there are some things you can take away from your years with Dirk that could help KP offensively to become more efficient.

They could start by reducing the number of 3's he takes to start off games.

They need to run more set plays and stop the free wheeling offense early that would allow RC to dictate where KP's shots come from to get him involved.

What ever happened to the Mid Area post from the FT Line that used for Dirk so effectively?

It allowed Dirk to see double teams coming much better and it took advantage of his strong mid range game.

Anyone remember that Dirk Iconic drive from the Ft Line in that game 7 vs the Spurs where he gets the bucket and the foul on Bruce Bowen?

Also does anyone recall Dirk and Nash often working out together to learn each other's best spots on the court and to help develop that bound?

Why doesn't Luka and KP have that same desire to fix this thing by getting more work in together?

And last but not least why haven't the Mavs contacted Holger to work with KP?

It's not unthinkable that the Mavs' coaching staff is solid in what they know, teach, and implement, and yet, don't really know how to find a solution for integrating KP's skillset into the offense. There's a big difference between devising an offensive philosophy that incorporates and takes advantage of KP's skillset vs just running a couple of plays that seem to work for him. A coach can be a good, even great coach and not be as successful adapting personnel and systems as others. Others are much better at x's and o's and time management, and others are better teaching and running practices and game prep. It's normal for different people to have different strengths weaknesses. The key to overcoming weaknesses is identifying them and having others help you in those areas.

I do recall last year that the Mavericks were borrowing plays from the Lakers for KP because the Lakers were having success with 2 bigs in the lineup. There is nothing wrong with borrowing plays that work, but it is something to think about if a coaching staff is having difficulties making adjustments to utilize an unusual talent like KP and finds itself borrowing plays from other teams instead of successfully adapting themselves. Just something to think about.

Dallas41 · 02-01-2021, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turin

As far as the "average player playing better." People forget that there are only 5 players on the court. If your starters are average NBA players, then they will look above average stat-wise. Just a fact. Sombody has to get those stats in a game.

I just recall these following players that fans said RC got the most out of while they were in Dallas and made them better players or efficient players

Brandon Wright
Brandon Bass
Seth Curry
Aminu
Deshawn Stevenson
JJB
O.J. Mayo
Monte Ellis

Those are some of the guys I recall that RC put them in a position to better excel right?

Then why hasn't this transpired with the efficiency of KP?

All that data provided in his time in Dallas surely RC has all that information so why is KP being asked to launch so many 3's

turin · 02-01-2021, 11:19 AM

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here with just 1 player - Seth Curry. Yes, he got his NBA legs here in Dallas, but was that all RC? He has played better in the 2 places he left the Mavericks for than when he was with the Mavs - both times. Does this mean that the Mavericks weren't getting the max out of him like Philadelphia is now?

There's not a solid answer to this question. There are simply too many variables - stats, system, role, coach, et. al. Remember the Mavs and their historic, greatest offense evah! Kind of like that.

Quantum · 02-01-2021, 11:28 AM

Good article.

I agree with having a conversation about if the coaching staff is being creative enough to put KP in position to succeed based on what he can currently do.

But...it seems like blaming Rick for not being able to develop KP is premature. KP is always hurt and rehabbing and cant work on his game. And the article mentioned that.

FreshJive · 02-01-2021, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

All that data provided in his time in Dallas surely RC has all that information so why is KP being asked to launch so many 3's

Last season’s data says he needs to launch threes. This season, he’s only played 9 games. He actually averages 1 more attempt from 2 per game and 1 less three attempt this season.

EricaLubarsky · 02-01-2021, 11:38 AM

Do I want him gone? Yes.

Is now a good time to trade him? Absolutely not. I'm not sure we even have the resources to dump him. 4 years, 120million. 30million a year for a guy who is below average? We'd have to probably pay at least one first-rounder to even dump an albatross like that. Should we spend our 2025 and/or 2027 first-round picks just to get him gone?

I think our only hope is to make him look even passable. The better he is, the less we have to pay to dump him. If we get him looking like a superstar, then he may have a net neutral or even positive value-- and heck, if he looks like a star, maybe we just keep him.

Trading him now is not a good choice.

SMC0007 · 02-01-2021, 11:46 AM

The FO will not trade KP unless there is a no brainer offer, and that isn't coming. The fact that he is injury prone and will forever be a load management player is enough to keep other teams away from what he is in theory "worth". We are stuck with this dude basically. I hope like hell he can turn things around.

purplefrog · 02-01-2021, 12:27 PM

I would start having conversations immediately, but with no real intention to trade at this time (unless there is a great offer, of course). Maybe the MBT is already doing this, I don't know how these things work. Ideally, you establish his current market value and then see how the next month or so goes with a goal of making a decision before the March trade deadline. His progress during that time is key to whether you make a trade before the deadline, wait until the offseason, or roll the dice and keep him for another season. I believe KP will be an up and down player for the remainder of his career. I hope that I am wrong, but the best predictor of future success is the historical record and his most recent history does not paint a pretty picture. In my opinion, the best scenario for the Mavs is to have him play extremely well for the remainder of the season and they make a decent trade for him in the offseason. But, if I had to guess, I think he will be a Mav until the final year of his contract.

purplefrog · 02-01-2021, 12:40 PM

I am a bit worried about how KP and his salary impact the future with Luka as a Mav. This is why as we get closer to the trade deadline, it might be prudent to make what looks like a not so good trade if you can (A) find someone(s) with trade friendly salaries and who can make immediate and consistent contributions even if there is no return on "star power"; or (B) find an expiring contract of equal value (e.g. Lowry). Might be a pipe dream, but I could maybe see Toronto willing to roll the dice on KP if you include Brunson in the deal.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-01-2021, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Do I want him gone? Yes.

Is now a good time to trade him? Absolutely not. I'm not sure we even have the resources to dump him. 4 years, 120million. 30million a year for a guy who is below average? We'd have to probably pay at least one first-rounder to even dump an albatross like that. Should we spend our 2025 and/or 2027 first-round picks just to get him gone?

I think our only hope is to make him look even passable. The better he is, the less we have to pay to dump him. If we get him looking like a superstar, then he may have a net neutral or even positive value-- and heck, if he looks like a star, maybe we just keep him.

Trading him now is not a good choice.

Yeah I don't think it's a matter of "should" the Mavs trade him. The question is, is he even tradeable? And what the hell would the Mavs get back? Like, why would anyone want him right now? He's in Kevin Love territory- an ok-ish, limited player on a max salary. IF we could trade him, all we'd get back is another team's garbage. And I'm not even sure we could do that right now.

EricaLubarsky · 02-01-2021, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Yeah I don't think it's a matter of "should" the Mavs trade him. The question is, is he even tradeable? And what the hell would the Mavs get back? Like, why would anyone want him right now? He's in Kevin Love territory- an ok-ish, limited player on a max salary. IF we could trade him, all we'd get back is another team's garbage. And I'm not even sure we could do that right now.

Yeah I'm not even sure we could get LaMarcus' expiring albatross for him.

Maybe Love, but that extra PO year of 36million in 2023-2024? I'm not sure Cleveland would even give us Love for KP. We'd have to give them at least a first-rounder to make up for that 36 million dollar hit.

mac222b · 02-01-2021, 03:28 PM

Y’all crazy. KP still has trade value. There will always be teams willing to take a shot on talent.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-01-2021, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Y’all crazy. KP still has trade value. There will always be teams willing to take a shot on talent.

Right this moment, I really don't think he has much trade value at all. Seriously, what could we get for him? Because if you think we could get something of real value, like a good young player and/or first round picks, then the Mavs should do it yesterday.

Dallas41 · 02-01-2021, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Right this moment, I really don't think he has much trade value at all. Seriously, what could we get for him? Because if you think we could get something of real value, like a good young player and/or first round picks, then the Mavs should do it yesterday.

I actually never responded to my own question asked LOL

The homer in me say's KP will bounce back and be productive but it's also going to have to take some coaching adjustments.

I know everyone thinks this is all on KP but I disagree.

I think RC needs to coach him up and also put him in a better position to succeed.

I mentioned this in another thread but I think there are some things they can do scheme wise to get KP more set plays and shots in his sweet spots like they did for Dirk.

It just seems like to me that this flow offense encourages players to take the 1st open 3 point shot that comes their way and to me that's not a good thing for KP.

As a fan who closely watches the games, I've seen on a few occasions this year and in the bubble where RC will come out the gates with designed set plays for KP. and that typical got him going early.

Then when you watch the games where Luka missed last year and KP was the primary option the Mavs made it a point to run specific sets to get him involved.

Now it just seems like every man for themselves lately which means when Luka is off the floor and Brunson or Burke have the ball they are usually putting their heads down and shot hunting. KP is basically going several possessions without a shot when he remains on the floor with the backup guards.

There is no pick N roll action or attempt to feed him the ball in the post. No play calling restrictions by RC which is crazy because he clashed with a guy like Rondo and Kidd at times over play calling.

Yet he gives 100% freedom to Burke and Brunson to run the offense. That to me should be the perfect time RC scales back the offense and reduces their freedom.

Hopefully with Kleber coming back it forces KP to play more around the basket because Kleber will be stretch big and that at least jump starts his offense.

The rebounding should be helped because the Mavs will be forced to play with another big (Kleber) up front with KP. Neither are great rebounders individually but this will force THJ back to the bench and the their overall size at each position KP, Kleber, DFS, JRich & Luka should give us average rebounders at 4 spots with Luka being above average at PG spot.

SMC0007 · 02-01-2021, 11:28 PM

KP. Good God what has the MBT done?!

Dallas41 · 02-01-2021, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

KP. Good God what has the MBT done?!

Ideally, You'd like KP to be playing at the level of L.Markkanen.

That dude has seriously started to take off.

I wonder if the Mavs would even consider grabbing that dude he's terrific stretch 4.

SMC0007 · 02-01-2021, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Ideally, You'd like KP to be playing at the level of L.Markkanen.

That dude has seriously started to take off.

I wonder if the Mavs would even consider grabbing that dude he's terrific stretch 4.

Hes not seriously injured. How could they possibly be looking to get him?

What I would take for KP is decreasing significantly by the game. Its making me physically ILL to watch his soft play.

Melonhead · 02-02-2021, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Y’all crazy. KP still has trade value. There will always be teams willing to take a shot on talent.

There are teams that would take a shot for sure. Teams can ALWAYS get rid of bad contracts. However, the return from the teams willing to take a shot on KP is most likely players that wouldnt be cornerstones with Luka.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-02-2021, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

There are teams that would take a shot for sure. Teams can ALWAYS get rid of bad contracts.

Can you though? It seems like Cleveland and Kevin Love have been stuck with each other for like a hundred years. Now KP is at least still young, but his injury history is worse, so the situations seem quite similar.

Quote:

However, the return from the teams willing to take a shot on KP is most likely players that wouldnt be cornerstones with Luka.

You can say that again three times. It seems to me when you move a bad contract, you have to take on another bad contract in return- like Russ for CP3, and then Russ for Wall. As of now I think the best case scenario for a KP trade would just be a package of mediocre/average players on smaller contracts that add up to KP's total. I can't envision getting anything of real value for him at the moment.

SMC0007 · 02-02-2021, 05:03 PM

https://youtu.be/IqbfRuv238w

KP on the final play getting split on the PnR is pathetic. Then he literally stands there while Paul misses a layup then Ayton gets a rebound, take and misses a shot, gets another rebound before he comes down to help. Congrats, you tied him up...but then tip the ball out of bounds on jumpball. Fml

mac222b · 02-02-2021, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

https://youtu.be/IqbfRuv238w

KP on the final play getting split on the PnR is pathetic. Then he literally stands there while Paul misses a layup then Ayton gets a rebound, take and misses a shot, gets another rebound before he comes down to help. Congrats, you tied him up...but then tip the ball out of bounds on jumpball. Fml

Wow. That was pathetic. It’s almost like his synapses aren’t firing properly. I can see him think and it’s in slo-mo. Someone needs to get that boy an adderall prescription, stat.

SMC0007 · 02-02-2021, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Wow. That was pathetic. It’s almost like his synapses aren’t firing properly. I can see him think and it’s in slo-mo. Someone needs to get that boy an adderall prescription, stat.

Lol. Exactly. An Adderall might actually help him.

Thank God I'm not the only one that notices this stuff.

I have the luxury of being able to rewind but Sometimes I wish I didn't care to do it because it makes me ILL watching such talent being wasted.

NeedlesKane · 02-03-2021, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turin

I wouldn't trade him. You'd be selling him cheap right now. What he needs is a different approach on offense, and that means a new coach imo.

Who are you thinking of replacing Carlisle? For me... Jason Kidd.

sefant77 · 02-03-2021, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Lol. Exactly. An Adderall might actually help him.

Thank God I'm not the only one that notices this stuff.

I have the luxury of being able to rewind but Sometimes I wish I didn't care to do it because it makes me ILL watching such talent being wasted.

Thats a bs take. He stopped because he literally didnt expect Paul to blow this layup. Like EVERYONE.

Tonight 24/11 with 10-20 shooting against a tough opponent FC. How about we give him again some time. Meanwhile watch Mavs bubble games

Thespiralgoeson · 02-03-2021, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedlesKane

Who are you thinking of replacing Carlisle? For me... Jason Kidd.

HARD pass on Kidd. I think the sample size with him as a head coach is big enough that we know he's not cut out for it.

Unfortunately, the best person for the job IMO is now coaching the Rockets.

Who would I pick? The honest answer is I have no f**king clue.

G-Man · 02-04-2021, 10:30 AM

I call BS on this whole topic line. So many of KP's games have come with him just returning from a serious injury. Like most players, it takes him a few games to round into playing shape. And in 2021, as soon as he started to settle down, the team lost half of its starters and a huge percent of its best shooters and best defenders to Covid. This puts more pressure on KP to perform, and it lets the defense target him and Luka.

If the original article were re-written to throw out KP's first 5 games after returning from injury, and all the Covid compromised games, his stats would look a lot better.

I call BS as well on blaming RC for KP's lack of production. When KP is playing his normal game, after he's recovered from injury, the Mavs had a record setting offense. The defense sucked, so the team spent the off season stocking up on defenders. Why don't we give the team a little time to play together before deciding that RC is incompetent?

SMC0007 · 02-04-2021, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Thats a bs take. He stopped because he literally didnt expect Paul to blow this layup. Like EVERYONE.

Tonight 24/11 with 10-20 shooting against a tough opponent FC. How about we give him again some time. Meanwhile watch Mavs bubble games

Dude please. No one expects a blown lay up but don't act like KP has been locked in defensively or on the boards. EVERYONE did not stop and watch on that play. Dorian and Ayton kept chasing... Because there's 11 seconds left! If Dorian didn't keep at it Ayton would have had a free follow dunk.

Good for KP, he had a great game last night. He was much more engaged. That's what you expect from your Max player.

Dallas41 · 02-04-2021, 01:06 PM

found this on basketball insider might be why the Mavs may always be cautious with KP because of the investment in him

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/kr...utm_medium=rss

The Mavericks’ former team doctor, Dr. T.O. Souryal, told the Dallas Morning News last Fall that Porzingis’ injury history is concerning.

“Anytime you have a star player with multiple injuries, especially to both knees, it’s a little troubling,” Souryal said. “But he seems to have come back from his ACL stronger than ever, so that injury’s behind us now. Each one of these injuries should be taken on its own merit.”

We are noticing more injuries in the bigs than we have before, but it’s not so much because there are more injuries,” Souryal continued. “It’s because the position has evolved and the player playing in that position has evolved.”

You’re seeing many, many more bigs than you did decades ago, and they’re far more athletic than they were decades ago. Two plus two equals four, so you’re seeing more bigs, seeing more athleticism, and therefore you’re seeing more of the common basketball injuries.”

mac222b · 02-04-2021, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

found this on basketball insider might be why the Mavs may always be cautious with KP because of the investment in him

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/kr...utm_medium=rss

The Mavericks’ former team doctor, Dr. T.O. Souryal, told the Dallas Morning News last Fall that Porzingis’ injury history is concerning.

“Anytime you have a star player with multiple injuries, especially to both knees, it’s a little troubling,” Souryal said. “But he seems to have come back from his ACL stronger than ever, so that injury’s behind us now. Each one of these injuries should be taken on its own merit.”

We are noticing more injuries in the bigs than we have before, but it’s not so much because there are more injuries,” Souryal continued. “It’s because the position has evolved and the player playing in that position has evolved.”

You’re seeing many, many more bigs than you did decades ago, and they’re far more athletic than they were decades ago. Two plus two equals four, so you’re seeing more bigs, seeing more athleticism, and therefore you’re seeing more of the common basketball injuries.”

I’m not sure how appropriate it is for a doctor to comment on his former patient publicly. Shows lack of judgement imho. Maybe I’m way off base idk.

SMC0007 · 02-05-2021, 09:37 PM

https://twitter.com/anthonyVslater/s...449964032?s=09

EricaLubarsky · 02-05-2021, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

https://twitter.com/anthonyVslater/s...449964032?s=09

I don’t know if KP was ever athletic enough for that, but he’s getting wrecked even by 6’10” forwards

Quantum · 02-05-2021, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I don’t know if KP was ever athletic enough for that, but he’s getting wrecked even by 6’10” forwards

If we cant defend that...as in our defensive schemes cant come up with ways to help KP...or our personnel is not capable of helping him...we need to move on. I love watching KP launch threes...but we have to win games.

You have to have quick feet in todays game...its a must.

Dolencd · 02-06-2021, 04:28 AM

I think first thing is to fire Rick Carlisle. Honestly.

Yeah. He won the league 10 years ago.

I think he could do much better elsewhere. And if you think he's so good, offers should be pouring in.

He may be great if his and opponents team really suite his style of play, but that's it. He isn't willing to adjust one bit. Benching hot players every time, doing weird rotations, not responding with timeouts. I could go on.

Igor Kokoškov should replace him. He had like half a year with Turkish Fenerbahce and already put together a 8 or 10 winning streak and second best 2 point percentage in a game in the Euroleague history. Something like 82,5 or something like that. And that's a league oriented in defence.

DIRK LEGIONS · 02-06-2021, 10:40 PM

Mavs need new coach and front office

DIRK LEGIONS · 02-06-2021, 10:46 PM

Cuban 62 yrs old and has maybe another 10 to 12 more yrs as owner here to cash in on this multi billion investment he has made and get his estate trusts in order for his heirs. A couple more championships with LUKA would go long way in getting mavs to 3b or more valuation if he wants to sell team later on for tax and estate reason

I think he needs a new front office I call jerry west or the warlord in Toronto to see if they want to run the front office

SMC0007 · 02-06-2021, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I don’t know if KP was ever athletic enough for that, but he’s getting wrecked even by 6’10” forwards

Jabbing his left foot forward but not actually funneling him baseline was a positioning issue, not athleticism imo. Wiggins attacked his front foot well and is obviously faster but KP should have been forcing him right where there would be more traffic. He got crosses up which is all too common for him. He seems to have skipped basketball fundamentals along the way.