All Time NBA Team

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by jeffajufo

I got bored a few weeks ago and started thinking "If I were to make an all time NBA team, who would be on it? Who would start, and who would come off the bench?"



C Bill Russell
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

After debating it with my buddy Taimur, I realized I had to reconsider the starting center position, and expand the team to 12 players. Mostly by putting who I thought were the greatest of all time at ther positions, this is what I came up with.

C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
F Tim Duncan
F Larry Bird
G Magic Johnson
G Michael Jordan

Bill Russell,Karl Malone,Charles Barkley,Jerry West,Oscar Robertson,John Stockton,Shaquille O'Neal


I don't know if 12 is enough for a team like this,maybe 15. But that's what I did. I'd love to see other people's lists

Your first list is a player off from the perfect NBA starting five.

G--Magic
G--MJ
F--Bird
F--Russell
C--Wilt Chamberlin

That is the perfect line-up..HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nowhereman]

okay, the argument is what happens when we take Dirk off the team. Lets look at the stats for what happens when Dirk goes to the bench vs. when other franchise players leave the court, from the 06-07 season. Stats are on a per-100 possession basis:

Dirk:
On Court: +12.1
Off Court: -0.9
Differential: 13 points per 100 possessions

Tim Duncan:
On Court: +13.7
Off Court: -0.4
Differential: 14.1 points per 100 possessions

Steve Nash:
On Court: +11.2
Off Court: -0.4
Differential: 11.6 pts per 100 possessions
In Nash's case, he has a very offensively potent backup, so there is less of a dropoff than one might expect otherwise.

Kobe Bryant:
On Court: +0.7
Off Court: -5.2
Differential: 5.9

Baron Davis:
On Court: +4.3
Off Court: -7.1
Differential: 11.4

There is a comparable drop off in team production when Duncan, Nash, Davis go to the bench as there is when Dirk goes to the bench. It's not like the mavs would play isolation basketball and stick Croshere on the high-post. I will take our team's 10th player over any other team's 10th player. Just because Dirk wouldn't be playing doesn't mean the mavs would play the same style. I by no means think these mavs are out of the playoffs without Dirk. I think they're at least a 45+ wins team without him.

That said, it's harder to go from 45 wins to 65 wins than it is to go from 25 to 45. That's what makes Dirk so valuable.

I don't understand this infatuation with the myth of wilt and russell. don't believe everything you read. look at what we have to evaluate objectively. there is no way we can exclude kareem from our starting 5, especially with russell and chamberlain BOTH there. that's bogus.

[Captain Disaster]

Pete Maravich has to be on the list.

[alby]

pistol pete is a legend

[jeffajufo]

Dallas' supporting cast is weak??? I dunno about that....no check that. I do know about that, its complete nonsense. How do you win 127 regular season games, a regular season division title, regular season conference title and an NBA finals appearance in two years with a weak supporting cast? Especially in the toughest division in the most brutal conference in recent years? It's an incredibly ignorant and irresponsible thing to say. Have you guys seen Phoenix play? They rarely go more than 7 deep(thats 5 starters and 2 bench) whereas teams such as San Antonio and Dallas easily go 10 deep without any significant drop off in their performance. We have two of arguably the best interior defensive centers in the NBA today, an NBA all star swingman, one of the best backcourts in the league(honestly, how many teams can boast a SG and PG combo as well rounded and balanced as Dallas) and a guy coming off the bench who has averaged nearly 30 ppg in his career. If you don't believe that think about this:

Dallas averaged 100 ppg last year. we had 5 guys average double figures in points per game. in terms of points per 48 minutes, everybody except diop averaged double figures. doesn't sound like a team thats struggling with its bench to me


alby, I'm not saying that you can't have a differing opinion, and I don't hate you. I would just prefer if you used more factual evidence for your arguments instead of making abstract, blakent statemets like, " pistol pete is a legend". Paul Bunyan is a legend. Johnny Appleseed is a legend. It's how their "legend" applies to NBA history in terms of individual/team accomplishments that I am trying to stress, so quotes from nba.com or fluffy quotes don't really paint a picture for me.

[alby]

I am not allowed to post "Pistol Pete is a legend"?

[DOMINATOR]

pistol pete is a legend... best college player ever. dunno if he is in the elite of the NBA though.

[alby]

well how was he in terms of his individual/team accomplishments, you can't just call him the best college player ever out of nowhere. and please don't quote from basketball sources such as nba.com

[Hitman]

Pistol Pete and Dirk do not deserve a spot on the all time NBA team.

[alby]

give us more factual evidence before you say such statements

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by alby

give us more factual evidence before you say such statements

Come on, you are letting that newbie get to you. We all know that was a crazy statement from that poster, so just let it go. We all know that Pistol Pete is a legend. Just post some logic back to the newbie who slammed your post. I will back you up on it

[jeffajufo]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Come on, you are letting that newbie get to you. We all know that was a crazy statement from that poster, so just let it go. We all know that Pistol Pete is a legend. Just post some logic back to the newbie who slammed your post. I will back you up on it

newbie huh? That's the worst thing you can say about me? I guess it could be worse,but I don't need to have 5,000+ posts on this website to be able to question somebodys reason for saying something. I never said alby, or anybody couldn't say whatever they wanted. Everybody can say whatever they want,but if you do then other people have the same freedom to scrutinize and question your statements, especially if your just pulling them out of the air. You can't make a bunch of questionable comments and then turn around and get upset at somebody when they call you on it. I was objecting to using comments on nba.com like "This person was a master at doing whatever, blah blah blah" for the purpose of this thread. I wanted to see real arguments. Of course the people who are on this list are going to be legends, its an ALL TIME list! What was really important was what those guys did that elevated themselves past the other legends. Example: What,in terms of team accomplishments and individual career achievement, did Pete Maravich do to deserve a spot on your list besides guys like Stockton, Magic, Cousy,Havlicheck etc? Saying stuff like "so and so is a legend" doesn't add to the argument. Its such an abstract and vague sentiment that its impossible to place any meaningful value to it.

Basically, if your going to make a comment like "pippen is the most overrated star ever" or "the mavericks are wasting dirk" then back it up with evidence. You can't just put gasoline on a grease fire without expecting some kind of reaction.

[alby]

the sky is blue

sorry I have no scientific evidence.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by alby

1. calm down.
2. I was making a point about how the "top 5" of all time have had amazing talent around them compared to some players who may be better that were not blessed with hall of fame teams.
3. I believe Dirk, who is one of the best talents basketball has ever seen, is being wasted away by the team dallas is giving him--especially when it was made known we could have teamed him up with a second superstar.

can I not have my own mind or do I have to agree with you on everything, calm down. lol

I agree COMPLETELY with your point (about the surrounding talent).

I get very sick of people listing Russell's rings as if it is the one, and only, and final discussion point in an argument. Balderdash. If you dropped Russell off those teams, suddenly, what? The Celtics only win 9 or 10 titles? Ouch, sucks to be them.

If you dropped Wilt off of most of his teams, you would have what? JV teams?

[mcsluggo]

can you even IMAGINE what the celtics would've been like if you replaced russell with wilt....?

Anyone think Russell would've won double digit rings replacing Wilt on his teams?

[Knickfan]

I read most of the quotes and I'm glad to see some people feel Dirk shouldn't be on this list and it's funny that he was even mentioned. If you're talking about all-time greats and Dirk it should STOP at all -time great Dallas Maverick and I'm not quite sure I'm ready to say he's the best all time Dallas Maverick. I know his numbers are probably head and shoulders above others (I haven't compared so I don't know) but I have a hard time putting him above my MAIN man Rolando Blackman.

Personally you all can make whatever argument you want, that he's the most difficult to guard,etc. etc. but the reality is, he's NOT an all-time great. Atleast not yet..

[Subliminal012]

I'm surprised to not see shaq on more lists. You have to take the era into context. I saw a post about how wilt had more rebounds than shaq. Of course, look at his competition. Shaq in his prime was an unmatchable presence.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

G--Magic
G--MJ
F--Bird
F--Russell
C--Wilt Chamberlin

That is the perfect line-up..HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree...its much harder to come up with the second or third best teams..

[Five-ofan]

i still think if we were actually going to play the game on the court, my team of
pg-magic
sg-jordan
sf-pippen
pf-hakeem
c-wilt

beats anyone elses lineup. I agree that bird is the best sf ever but on a team that already has go to scorers, pippens D and not needing the ball put him ahead imo.

[alby]

why don't you just have bowen out there then?

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by alby

why don't you just have bowen out there then?

pippen was a MUCH better defender than bowen, and a much better scorer and facilator. The bulls of the 90s are the greatest defensive teams of all times and that is largely due to the fact that pippen is definitely the best wing defender and arguably the best overall defender of all time. Not to mention that when jordan felt like turning it up he was a beast defensively too though he did take large periods of the game off. The length and athleticism from 2-5 would be so unbelievable i dont think anyone could do anything against them. I thought about playin gp or frazier at the point but decided id rather have the distributor and the guys behind him would make up for magics defensive short comings.

[Knickfan]

pippen was a MUCH better defender than bowen, and a much better scorer and facilator. The bulls of the 90s are the greatest defensive teams of all times and that is largely due to the fact that pippen is definitely the best wing defender and arguably the best overall defender of all time. Not to mention that when jordan felt like turning it up he was a beast defensively too though he did take large periods of the game off. The length and athleticism from 2-5 would be so unbelievable i dont think anyone could do anything against them. I thought about playin gp or frazier at the point but decided id rather have the distributor and the guys behind him would make up for magics defensive short comings.

I MAY be one of the biggest Pippen fans alive and that is no joke. I say that because there really aren't many Pippen worshipers. With that being said, I don't know if I would even put Pippen on an all-time time. Is he arguably one of the best defenders?? Yes! There are arguments to be made why he is great but I just couldn't see putting him before Bird. Yes he was EASILY a better defender and possibly more versatile than Bird BUT Bird simply made his team better by being on the court because you had to respect him so much and if you DIDN'T he would KILL YOU!

I'm not going to diss you for putting Pippen on there, as a matter of fact, I'm happy to see someone recognizes how special of a player he actually was.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Knickfan

I MAY be one of the biggest Pippen fans alive and that is no joke. I say that because there really aren't many Pippen worshipers. With that being said, I don't know if I would even put Pippen on an all-time time. Is he arguably one of the best defenders?? Yes! There are arguments to be made why he is great but I just couldn't see putting him before Bird. Yes he was EASILY a better defender and possibly more versatile than Bird BUT Bird simply made his team better by being on the court because you had to respect him so much and if you DIDN'T he would KILL YOU!

I'm not going to diss you for putting Pippen on there, as a matter of fact, I'm happy to see someone recognizes how special of a player he actually was.

bird was without question a better basketball player. I loved pippen(he was always my favorite player when i was little) but theres no doubt bird is better and the best sf of all time. The thing is, when you already have jordan and wilt to do the scoring(and dominate the ball) and magic to do the distributing(and take up the rest of the ball) you might as well go with what would be by far the greatest defensive forward pairing of all time in pippen and hakeem. its the law of diminishing returns. The 4th and 5th starter being all time great scorers isnt really necesarry.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

6. Russell was elected to the all-nba second team 7 times, and the first team 3 times. This means that in his generation, 70% of the time he was an all-league player, there was a consensus player that was better at his position.

That was also in an age where the players voted for the MVP, and I believe at least once, Bill made the All-NBA second team...... and won the MVP trophy.


To me, All-NBA teams are completely meaningless, especially since they don't just pick the top 5 vote-getters... since that was the case last year, Amare Stoudemire made the All-NBA team, and guys like LeBron James and Kevin Garnett (who are both clearly better players, and got more votes) didn't make that team.


That tells you the value of the All-NBA teams.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by spreedom

That was also in an age where the players voted for the MVP, and I believe at least once, Bill made the All-NBA second team...... and won the MVP trophy.


To me, All-NBA teams are completely meaningless, especially since they don't just pick the top 5 vote-getters... since that was the case last year, Amare Stoudemire made the All-NBA team, and guys like LeBron James and Kevin Garnett (who are both clearly better players, and got more votes) didn't make that team.


That tells you the value of the All-NBA teams.

and he won the mvp the year wilt averaged 48.5 mpg, 50.4 ppg and 25.7 rpg. the reason he wasnt all nba first team that year is because he was CLEARLY not the best center in the nba. that years voting was a mistake because he had no damn business winning the mvp not because he should have been on the all nba first team.

and the other thing of note about bill russell that no one has mentioned. he was a career 44% shooter. Thats flat out awful for a center. I know it was a different era but wilt played in the same era and shot 54% for his career with ALOT more defensive attention. Theres really absolutely no question who the better player was.