O'Neal says parting ways with Pacers may be best - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

AxdemxO · 01-07-2007, 02:17 AM

I just thought this was interesting....Any thoughts??

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2722352

Windmill360 · 01-07-2007, 02:19 AM

The only O'Niel I know is on the heat. BURNNNNN

EricaLubarsky · 01-07-2007, 02:22 AM

The destruction we leave in our wake is immeasurable.

dirno2000 · 01-07-2007, 02:47 AM

I'm sure Larry Bird is thrilled to hear this. They're paying this guy $80MM over the next four years and now he want to be traded to a team where he can ride somebody's coattails to a championship.

If he’d put up 27ppg instead of 19, they probably wouldn't be so mediocre.

Drbio · 01-07-2007, 02:59 AM

Another case of an athlete needing to avoid media when they are frustrated.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 03:17 AM

Guaranteed contracts are a curse.

big_pth · 01-07-2007, 10:57 AM

He wants to play for a championship contender. Could be nothing, but it would be worth looking into...

ESPN Article

Quote:

"I'm getting to the point, I'm in my 11th year, I don't want to play 82 games and then exit to watch somebody else pop champagne. ... I'm tired of that. I want to compete for a championship.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 11:08 AM

Guaranteed contracts are the dumbest things NBA owners have ever done. It gives all of the leverage to the star players. They completely have them over the barrel.

big_pth · 01-07-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Guaranteed contracts are the dumbest things NBA owners have ever done. It gives all of the leverage to the star players. They completely have them over the barrel.

Agreed, there needs to be a happy medium between what the NBA and MLB do and how the NFL does things...

aexchange · 01-07-2007, 11:12 AM

dallas doesn't get o'neal with any deal starting with anything less than jho.

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 11:40 AM

Unless he can play shooting guard, f'em.

TripleDipping · 01-07-2007, 11:51 AM

All that article tells me is that O'Neal is too lazy to win a championship.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2007, 01:53 PM

I do feel for him a little..beacuse they never did give him players that could get the team over the top. They kep Tinsley..who is garbage hoping that he would run the team, but he isnt good for tht.

atrewsfan · 01-07-2007, 02:15 PM

I dunno, maybe O'Neal becomes part of a package for Garnett?

rakesh.s · 01-07-2007, 03:05 PM

he is one of the most overrated players in the past 10 years.

I still remember him talking about how no one on the Nets could guard him in teh playoffs, and Kenyon Martin of all people shut him down.

This guy sucks..and is way overpaid. That being said, the Knicks should trade for him.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 04:12 PM

I think JOneal is one heck of a player. If AJ could get him to play with a defensive and not offensive mind-set, good grief.
Gimme...

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think JOneal is one heck of a player. If AJ could get him to play with a defensive and not offensive mind-set, good grief.
Gimme...

Nowhere to put him.

He can't/won't do what Dampier and Diop do, and the Mavericks have a pretty good power forward already.

He's a nice player, but he wouldn't fit in with the Mavericks--not in temperment, work ethic, or frankly, talent.

Why does Mavericks Nation want all these wannabe superstars?

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Nowhere to put him.

He can't/won't do what Dampier and Diop do, and the Mavericks have a pretty good power forward already.

He's a nice player, but he wouldn't fit in with the Mavericks--not in temperment, work ethic, or frankly, talent.

Why does Mavericks Nation want all these wannabe superstars?

I don't quite understand why he "can't" do what diop/damp do? Please inform me. He's every bit as big as damp and he's a better shotblocker.

rakesh.s · 01-07-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't quite understand why he "can't" do what diop/damp do? Please inform me. He's every bit as big as damp and he's a better shotblocker.

you don't pay a guy max money to come in and block shots and rebound.

You pay a guy max money to be your go to guy..do you think jermaine o'neal feels that dampier and diop are equivalent to him?

That's like having Iverson as your backup point guard.

dirno2000 · 01-07-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't quite understand why he "can't" do what diop/damp do? Please inform me. He's every bit as big as damp and he's a better shotblocker.

He can do what they do but $20MM per year is a lot to pay for a gargage man.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

He can do what they do but $20MM per year is a lot to pay for a gargage man.

Hmm..I still don't understand. What do you want damp to do:

1. Rebound
2. Block shots
............
He can do all of that as well as have the ball thrown to him and get 20+ points? I dont' quite understand what is not to like.

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't quite understand why he "can't" do what diop/damp do? Please inform me. He's every bit as big as damp and he's a better shotblocker.

He is a physcially talented player, but I don't believe he has Dampier's strength, not to mention Dampier's willingness to engage opposing centers with the type of physical play that doesn't show up in the box score. I know they're both listed at 260, but he looks physically smaller than Dampier. He looks like he's a good 15-20 pounds lighter than Dampier to me. If O'Neal is 260, then Dampier must go 275.

I've been disappointed by Dampier, but I don't think that O'Neal would be as good a player alongside Dirk as Dampier is. He "can't" because he "won't".

You can't put all stud running backs out there. You need some offensive linemen.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

He is a physcially talented player, but I don't believe he has Dampier's strength, not to mention Dampier's willingness to engage opposing centers with the type of physical play that doesn't show up in the box score. I know they're both listed at 260, but he looks physically smaller than Dampier. He looks like he's a good 15-20 pounds lighter than Dampier to me. If O'Neal is 260, then Dampier must go 275.

I've been disappointed by Dampier, but I don't think that O'Neal would be as good a player alongside Dirk as Dampier is. He "can't" because he "won't".

You can't put all stud running backs out there. You need some offensive linemen.

In person he looks pretty close to damp to me. He certainly was able to stop damps dunks for example. I just don't think that ONeal couldn't get "it" done. There are few if any players as big or as mobile as he is. I like what damp is giving us, but if I could get oneal without gutting the team I do it in a second.

dirno2000 · 01-07-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

In person he looks pretty close to damp to me. He certainly was able to stop damps dunks for example. I just don't think that ONeal couldn't get "it" done. There are few if any players as big or as mobile as he is. I like what damp is giving us, but if I could get oneal without gutting the team I do it in a second.

I'm pretty sure you'd have to gut the team. Larry Bid and Donnie Walsh are no fools.

Also, if he's so capeable of doing the dirty work and scoring then why is Indiana starting Jeff Foster? O'Neal's not a center and he's made it clear that he doesn't like playing there. He leads the league in blocks but so did Shawn Bradley. That didn't make him a good low post defender.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him here to throw at PXH but the bidding starts with Howard and goes from there. At his salary, he's not worth it.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'm pretty sure you'd have to gut the team. Larry Bid and Donnie Walsh are no fools.

Also, if he's so capeable of doing the dirty work and scoring then why is Indiana starting Jeff Foster? O'Neal's not a center and he's made it clear that he doesn't like playing there. He leads the league in blocks but so did Shawn Bradley. That didn't make him a good low post defender.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him here to throw at PXH but the bidding starts with Howard and goes from there. At his salary, he's not worth it.

Jeff foster is starting for the same reason that damp does. So that he can pick up the fouls contesting shots in the paint as well as why they have a center with duncan. You just don't want you stud offensive player picking up cheap ones. IMO.

I can't see him coming here either, what I'm arguing about is that somehow he wouldn't fit here because he's not damp.

Dtownsfinest · 01-07-2007, 06:17 PM

I'd definately take O'Neal but at what cost? He's more in Dirk's class than he is in Josh Howard's class but I don't want to give up youth to get him. Especially since things are going so great right now. I'd definately be willing to part with anyone not named Devin, Dirk or Josh. But I don't think the Pacers would be interested unless they see potential in some of our younger talent in Diop, Ager and Benga. O'Neal is due a lot of money in the next 4 years though. I can't speak for whether or not Cuban would want to take on that contract.

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Jeff foster is starting for the same reason that damp does. So that he can pick up the fouls contesting shots in the paint as well as why they have a center with duncan. You just don't want you stud offensive player picking up cheap ones. IMO.

...., what I'm arguing about is that somehow he wouldn't fit here because he's not damp.

But it IS about fit. About players being wiling and able to assume roles and be productive in those roles.

It's not just that you don't want Dirk getting cheapies contesting shots at the rim(though it's true that you don't), it's also that you have to have a player like Dampier (or better yet a combined 12 fouls between players like Dampier and Diop) who will accept that role and be content not being a marquee scorer---a player to protect the rim, clog the middle, engage other players physically to keep them off the board, set picks on offense, crash the o-boards, and not be a malcontent because he's not having the offense run through him.

JO'Neal is a talented, skilled player. And that's part of the problem in this hypothetical. He would NOT be happy being relegated to the basketball equivalent of a lineman. He's too skilled a player to adapt to that mindset and be productive doing the things that Dampier/Diop do. For him to be a productive player, he would ultimately detract from Dirk's game. The Mavericks have an excellent balance now that they've been developing over the last couple or three years. There would be no reason whatsoever to bring in a skilled player like JO'Neal and ask him to be a role player.

Even before his injury problems LaFrentz was not a skill player at the level of O'Neal, but he did come to Dallas having shown himself to be more than a role player. He was misused in Nelson's system, basically sacrificed. That team was almost always overmatched (not to mention grossly overrated) with him trying to fill the middle.

And then there was 2003--why couldn't Dirk, Jamison, Walker, Finley and Nash all score 20ppg? Why was that the worst Mavericks team in the last 10 years?

It's about fit, complimentary skills, and players willing to accept roles. Johnson has done a great job getting Dampier and Diop to be productive in their roles, which in turn, lets Dirk get the most out of his abilities.

No way you'd be getting the same production out of Dirk, or the team as a whole by bringing a player like JO'Neal in to play center. No way.

bernardos70 · 01-07-2007, 07:09 PM

Just say no to that O'Neal. We have the best team in the league. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Especially when the cost associated with getting him here is so high, and such a big gamble.

dude1394 · 01-07-2007, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

No way you'd be getting the same production out of Dirk, or the team as a whole by bringing a player like JO'Neal in to play center. No way.

I'll agree about dirk, but I don't about the team. So what if JO'Neal doesn't completely sacrifice himself to do what damp does? Even now we are trying our damndest to get damp/diop to get 10+,10 every night. So JO'Neal takes dirks/joshs/jasons shots -2 each. I'm not sure I get it.

I'll have to defer on his mental make-up, if he's a nuthead then I wouldn't want him either.

To compare this to the jamison, walker clusterf*** that went on is not valid imo. You are talking about adding a better center to the team, not necessarily a small forward. You can argue that JOneal is a PF and he does have those skills, but he surely has the body of a center.

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'll agree about dirk, but I don't about the team. So what if JO'Neal doesn't completely sacrifice himself to do what damp does? Even now we are trying our damndest to get damp/diop to get 10+,10 every night. So JO'Neal takes dirks/joshs/jasons shots -2 each. I'm not sure I get it.

I'll have to defer on his mental make-up, if he's a nuthead then I wouldn't want him either.

To compare this to the jamison, walker clusterf*** that went on is not valid imo. You are talking about adding a better center to the team, not necessarily a small forward. You can argue that JOneal is a PF and he does have those skills, but he surely has the body of a center.

1) Damp/Diop's productivity may've slackened a little of late, but earlier in the year the box lines were regularly showing 10+ pts, 10+ rebounds, 2-3 blocks, and, on occasion 10 fouls, the value of which I think goes underappreciated.

2) Re the clusterf*ck: they're more analagous situations than parallel. With Walker, Jamsion et al, everyone needed the ball to be effective (which I contend would be the situation with O'Neal) and the dirty work would go undone.

3) Re O'Neal's body--his listed 260 sounds heaver than he looks, to my eye. Also, note that playing primarily as a PF, he has started to show signs of injury prone-ness the last couple of years--shoulder, groin--that have knocked him out of action for significant stints. He may just be injury prone, but that raises questions to me about how effective he'd be as a banger/physical presence.

Hitman · 01-07-2007, 07:42 PM

It is funny...I remember reading several articles a couple of years ago stating that

1) The Pacers would be foolish for trading JO for Shaq

and then stating

2) The Mavs would be foolish in not trading Dirk for Shaq.

I thought it was complete rubbish at the time, and now......

dalmations202 · 01-07-2007, 09:06 PM

Terry and/or Damp and/or expiring contracts for JO.

They get a starting center and a starting guard. Dallas gets a dominating frontline.

Dirk, JO, JHo -- would dominate both scoring and defensively. An actual inside threat would make Dirk MVP. Dallas would still have the quickness of Harris, Stack would start, but Ager would get to develop. Buck, George off the bench. AJ2 would would be back at home with the half court game of JO.

Virtually impossible to defend, and very good on the defensive end as well.

MavKikiNYC · 01-07-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Terry and/or Damp and/or expiring contracts for JO.

They get a starting center and a starting guard. Dallas gets a dominating frontline.

Dirk, JO, JHo -- would dominate both scoring and defensively. An actual inside threat would make Dirk MVP. Dallas would still have the quickness of Harris, Stack would start, but Ager would get to develop. Buck, George off the bench. AJ2 would would be back at home with the half court game of JO.

Virtually impossible to defend, and very good on the defensive end as well.

Fantasy league absurdity.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-08-2007, 02:36 AM

Wow, I just can't help but feel bad for the Pacers' organization. If only Ron Artest hadn't stabbed them in the back, they could've been a championship team. What would probably be best for them at this point would be to just dump JO on anyone who'll take him for more moveable parts, and start over from scratch. I also think Walsh needs to step down, and let Bird take over. The team just needs a new direction.

dalmations202 · 01-09-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Fantasy league absurdity.

James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson.........

Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson................

All fantasy league absurdity!!!! All with multiple championships.

MavKikiNYC · 01-09-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson.........Jim Chones, Kurt Rambis, Michael Cooper

Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parrish, Dennis Johnson................Cornbread Maxwell, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton

All fantasy league absurdity!!!! All with multiple championships.

For every star you name, there was at least one role player toiling in un-glamorous obscurity, making things easier for the more talented players.

What's more, those teams didn't just go out and plug-and-play those superstars; those teams developed over time, similar to what Avery is doing with the Mavericks.

Thinking that you can buy a championship by going out and geting the (perceived) most-talented player available is how Cuban thought 5 years ago. He's smarter now. The question is why fantasy-league fans aren't.

dalmations202 · 01-09-2007, 11:02 AM

Devin Harris, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine Oneal, Josh Howard....... AJ2, Bucknor, Stack, George, Diop, Benga.

What is the difference?

The only difference I see is that Dallas would have one defensive minded frontcourt player who has some offense in JO, instead of a defensive minded player with little offensive threat. This would add a new wrinkle to the Dallas gameplan. Dallas would still have just as many role players as before - but have an inside threat keeping bigs away from Dirk.

Fantasy or not, Avery's job of coaching would be much easier. His job of motivation and ego management might be tougher, but X' and O's coaching would be much easier.

MavKikiNYC · 01-09-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Devin Harris, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine Oneal, Josh Howard....... AJ2, Bucknor, Stack, George, Diop, Benga.

What is the difference?

The only difference I see is that Dallas would have one defensive minded frontcourt player who has some offense in JO, instead of a defensive minded player with little offensive threat. This would add a new wrinkle to the Dallas gameplan. Dallas would still have just as many role players as before - but have an inside threat keeping bigs away from Dirk.

Fantasy or not, Avery's job of coaching would be much easier. His job of motivation and ego management might be tougher, but X' and O's coaching would be much easier.

Are you serious, Dal?

That is the first time I've ever seen JO'Neal referred to as a defensive-minded player. He's not. He's a scorer. He sees himself as a scorer. He got his max (or near-max) contract on the basis of being a scorer, not a "defensive-minded" player. Leaving the question of whether he would be effective aside, I would be very surprised if he's wililng to subjugate his game (not to mention his future earnings potential) to become a defensive-minded role player.

It's not just about having players on the roster together, it's about having player combos on the court that you can get production out of.

Make Johnson's job easier? That's the same mindset that thought that Nash-Finley-Jamison-Walker-Dirk would make Nellie's job easier. Basketball ain't rocket science, but I don't think it's nearly as simple a managment proposition as you seem to think. I think it really underestimates and undervalues what Johnson has actually accomplished with Damp/Diop (not to mention Dirk himself, JHo, and Devin) to see people get all hyper about signing another "star" to make the Mavericks EVEN BETTER. As if that's all there was to it.

WurzburgBorn · 01-09-2007, 03:00 PM

O'Neal cannot and will not replace what Damp brings to this team. If we could trade uselss pieces for him, i.e. Athony Johnson and Croshere, sure that's a no-brainer. But we can't.
Jermaine has real value, but he is as bad a fit for the Mavs as you can find anywhere.
This team could use a shooting guard. I think we're doing alright as far as starting power forwards go.

dalmations202 · 01-09-2007, 03:58 PM

What does Damp bring that ONeal can't?
EFF -- JO by +10
Blocks -- sorry but JO wins big.
Scoring -- JO big
Assists -- JO big
FT% -- JO big
Rebounds -- JO
FG% -- Damp
Height -- equal
Experience -- equal
Age -- JO three years younger
listed Weight -- only 5 lbs different
Athleticism -- Big advantage JO

Not sure how he would be such a bad fit, but I heard the same things about Stack, and NVE and those ideas weren't factual either. They were legit about Walker though.

Quote:

It's not just about having players on the roster together, it's about having player combos on the court that you can get production out of.

I totally agree. It is about having combinations that allow you to do certain things at certain times, against certain match-ups.

I guess we will just have to disagree then, because I can see the usefulness from a coaching perspective for having an inside game (JO), match-up nightmare (Dirk), slasher(JHo), Penetrator (Harris), Shooter(Terry/George), all on the court at the same time, if they can defend and are athletic enough to be able to run, or play half court. Dallas could easily do that with JO. They do it now by removing Damp and inserting Diop, only they lose the ability to score from the 5.

With JO, Dallas wouldn't be match-up problem. Dallas would be a match-up nightmare.... like Boston was with Bird, McHale, Parrish.