The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jon

Jordan, Nene, Chandler, Gasol.
10, 13, 13.8, 14.3
Taking only the contracts given out post CBA, please explain to me how the current DPOY is overpaid.

Yea that one kinda floored me. Also the post where the only two centers that someone would even look at signing was gortat ( grossely underpaid ) and Dwight. I mean I understand WANTING to pay no more than 8 million or 10 for a center, but just,because you want to, doesn't mean you get to. The market has something to say about it.

And we can always keep that stellar combo of centers we already have. Wow.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yea that one kinda floored me. Also the post where the only two centers that someone would even look at signing was gortat ( grossely underpaid ) and Dwight. I mean I understand WANTING to pay no more than 8 million or 10 for a center, but just,because you want to, doesn't mean you get to. The market has something to say about it.

And we can always keep that stellar combo of centers we already have. Wow.

The old saying in football that if you have 2 quarterbacks, you have no quarterback could be adapted for the Mav's 3-headed center rotation.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

Jordan, Nene, Chandler, Gasol.
10, 13, 13.8, 14.3
Taking only the contracts given out post CBA, please explain to me how the current DPOY is overpaid.

Because the rest of those guys are probably overpaid as well? (except maybe Gasol...)

Using a mere FOUR contracts signed by mediocre front offices such as the Knicks, Clippers, Grizzlies and Nuggets (traded to the Wizards within months of the ink drying) is a pretty flimsy sample size to determine what an NBA center is worth under the new CBA.

$13.8M is almost 25% of your cap space, and the new rules call for extremely steep penalties against luxury tax payers. So you're essentially talking about paying a third/fourth-best guy on your team "franchise player" money... I just don't see that as a formula for success in this new fiscal landscape.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I'm really hoping we get to talk about Chandler for the rest of the offseason...(fingers crossed!)

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I'm really hoping we get to talk about Chandler for the rest of the offseason...(fingers crossed!)

Yeah, especially in a thread about the long shot possibility of Deron Williams and Dwight Howard both landing in Dallas... But why should this thread be any different from all the other threads on this board that have been hijacked by one-note posters?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, especially in a thread about the long shot possibility of Deron Williams and Dwight Howard both landing in Dallas... But why should this thread be any different from all the other threads on this board that have been hijacked by one-note posters?

And I don't want to derail a thread by mentioning how old this conversation is...But after the last two entire pages of this thread dedicated to it...yuck. I still haven't seen anything original or creative on the subject that hasn't been mentioned or talked about a zillion times.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

And I don't want to derail a thread by mentioning how old this conversation is...But after the last two entire pages of this thread dedicated to it...yuck. I still haven't seen anything original or creative on the subject that hasn't been mentioned or talked about a zillion times.

Yeah, this Chandler shit is getting old.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Because the rest of those guys are probably overpaid as well? (except maybe Gasol...)

Using a mere FOUR contracts signed by mediocre front offices such as the Knicks, Clippers, Grizzlies and Nuggets (traded to the Wizards within months of the ink drying) is a pretty flimsy sample size to determine what an NBA center is worth under the new CBA.

$13.8M is almost 25% of your cap space, and the new rules call for extremely steep penalties against luxury tax payers. So you're essentially talking about paying a third/fourth-best guy on your team "franchise player" money... I just don't see that as a formula for success in this new fiscal landscape.

Using contracts under the old cba to show that you must pay a premium for centers is flawed because the deals were handed out before the new CBA. Limiting the discussion to the four center deemed acceptable initially by five teams, perhaps six if you count the Wizards agreeing to pay Nene, it’s still flawed because only a fifth of the teams (or sixth if discounting Wizards) issued out these deals.

So using old deals to establish centers earn at a higher premium is improper. Using new deals to establish centers earn at a higher premium is also improper. Apparently, the only rationale that can be deemed proper is your own.

I find your latter point both very troublesome and illuminating. Do you honestly believe that Tyson Chandler was the “third/fourth-best guy” on the 2011 Mavericks? If that is the case, then I now understand why you seem so hesitant to question the move to not even attempt to resign him. If you can sum up the impact Chandler had on our team 2 years ago as being worthy of being the “third/fourth best guy” on a championship contender team, then all I have left to say is

[Jon]

Sorry, meant to say championship WINNING team.

As far as the complaint that the Tyson talk has usurped the original purpose of this thread, I don’t see how the Dwight/Deron/Dirk era can not be linked to letting Tyson walk to free up the capspace. Those two are forever intertwined like Peanut Butter and Bacon sammiches.

And it’s not like ther’s any other Maverick related story going on now days.. outside of Dirk being spotted in Grand Prairie playing the tambourine

[dude1394]

There is an easy way to not have Tyson talk, don't talk about it.

[|_Jeff_|]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Because the rest of those guys are probably overpaid as well? (except maybe Gasol...)

Using a mere FOUR contracts signed by mediocre front offices such as the Knicks, Clippers, Grizzlies and Nuggets (traded to the Wizards within months of the ink drying) is a pretty flimsy sample size to determine what an NBA center is worth under the new CBA.

$13.8M is almost 25% of your cap space, and the new rules call for extremely steep penalties against luxury tax payers. So you're essentially talking about paying a third/fourth-best guy on your team "franchise player" money... I just don't see that as a formula for success in this new fiscal landscape.

Name a top tier center that fits your salary constraints that was NOT drafted by his team (not on his rookie contract).

Big men get paid big money, bro. You don't want to pay then you've opened a hole in the middle.

Reserve $15M of cap for a good center unless you the rest of the roster is so good they can win without one.

[adonis]

Can we rename this into "Offseason thread"?

[chumdawg]

Please. Should have seen this place after the Nash drama!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

Do you honestly believe that Tyson Chandler was the “third/fourth-best guy” on the 2011 Mavericks?

Absolutely.

Dirk and Terry were our best two players without a doubt and Shawn Marion was the guy who guarded Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Wade/Westbrook (you know, the best players in the league). I'd also argue that Kidd was every bit as important on offense as Chandler was on defense, so, yeah, I could even make the argument that Ty the fifth-best player on that championship squad...

But you go ahead and keep pumping up Chandler's importance during that run - the revisionists are already crediting him for guarding Aldridge and Bynum, even though the incredibly-worthless Brendan Haywood was the guy who gave them fits... By the time the offseason is over, I'm sure you'll be crediting him for Dirk's lefty lay-in over Bosh, Kidd's Game 5 buzzer-beater against the Heat and, hell, why not give him Terry's record-tying three-pointers against the Lakers too?

Seems like we'll just have to agree to disagree on Tyson Chandler, but feel free to come back and say "toldja so" if he happens to maintain this level of play over the duration of his contract.


And if you want to keep harping on and on about him, then go ahead and start a new thread about it - Deron and Dwight might be the reason we let him go, but speculating that the Mavs could've repeated if we brought him back has nothing to do with that. The general desire for the "Mavs suck without Chandler" crowd to turn this entire board into one big Tyson Chandler ass-bleeding is getting old.

[SMC0007]

Shame on those who speak ill of Tyson!!! SHAME! bamf

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Shame on those who speak ill of Tyson!!! SHAME! bamf

Actually, I love Tyson Chandler...

When it comes to Mavs I've rooted for the hardest (at the time), I'd easily rank him as one of my favorite Dirk-era Mavs:

Dirk
Nash
Chandler
Harris
Kidd

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Please. Should have seen this place after the Nash drama!

And we won a ring with Jason Kidd instead... I wonder who we'll win a ring with instead of Tyson Chandler?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Underdog

And we won a ring with Jason Kidd instead... I wonder who we'll win a ring with instead of Tyson Chandler?

Pretty much anybody!

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Shame on those who speak ill of Tyson!!! SHAME! bamf

Who are you referring to, though? I mean, really. I don't think I've ever seen anybody speak ill of him on this board. At least not since he made his debut with the team. He's pretty much universally regarded as the best center Dirk's ever played with, a critical piece in the championship run, and a great guy to root for.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Who are you referring to, though? I mean, really. I don't think I've ever seen anybody speak ill of him on this board. At least not since he made his debut with the team. He's pretty much universally regarded as the best center Dirk's ever played with, a critical piece in the championship run, and a great guy to root for.

No. Erick Dampier was the best center in that span. Chandler was a money grubber and only in it for himself.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Absolutely.

Dirk and Terry were our best two players without a doubt and Shawn Marion was the guy who guarded Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Wade/Westbrook (you know, the best players in the league). I'd also argue that Kidd was every bit as important on offense as Chandler was on defense, so, yeah, I could even make the argument that Ty the fifth-best player on that championship squad...

But you go ahead and keep pumping up Chandler's importance during that run - the revisionists are already crediting him for guarding Aldridge and Bynum, even though the incredibly-worthless Brendan Haywood was the guy who gave them fits... By the time the offseason is over, I'm sure you'll be crediting him for Dirk's lefty lay-in over Bosh, Kidd's Game 5 buzzer-beater against the Heat and, hell, why not give him Terry's record-tying three-pointers against the Lakers too?

Seems like we'll just have to agree to disagree on Tyson Chandler, but feel free to come back and say "toldja so" if he happens to maintain this level of play over the duration of his contract.


And if you want to keep harping on and on about him, then go ahead and start a new thread about it - Deron and Dwight might be the reason we let him go, but speculating that the Mavs could've repeated if we brought him back has nothing to do with that. The general desire for the "Mavs suck without Chandler" crowd to turn this entire board into one big Tyson Chandler ass-bleeding is getting old.

Just so that I understand it completely, you’re assessment of the 2011 Mavericks goes:
1. Dirk
2. JET
3. Marion
4. Kidd/Chandler
5. Chandler/Kidd.


Now I know who I’m dealing with.

Thanks.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

Just so that I understand it completely, you’re assessment of the 2011 Mavericks goes:
1. Dirk
2. JET
3. Marion
4. Kidd/Chandler
5. Chandler/Kidd.


Now I know who I’m dealing with.

Thanks.

Did you watch the playoffs? I think you're severely underrating the other people on that list...

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by Jon

Jordan, Nene, Chandler, Gasol.

10, 13, 13.8, 14.3

Taking only the contracts given out post CBA, please explain to me how the current DPOY is overpaid.

What's wrong with calling all 4 of them overpaid? It's winner's remorse. The Nuggets were a prime example. In general all free agents are overpaid (Delonte West aside). You have to choose who you overpay. Just because you have to pay them that to get them doesn't magically make them worth it.

We can stop talking about Tyson (I'm a big advocate of trying to not talk about Tyson) since a few people are grumbling. The alternative would be to talk about…. Hibbert I guess?

I agree completely with this statement:

Originally Posted by Jon

The goal this year was not to win a championship as it had been for so many before; it was to stay financially flexible to lure Howard and Williams to Dallas.

I disagree about the part where Tyson doesn't cripple our chances at winning championships in the future (not this year, we'd obviously been better this year). No way Deron/Dwight come without full cap space.

Let's not rehash all the arguments about it though. Let's just not post anything as we inwardly hope Deron signs with us next month.

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by Jon

Just so that I understand it completely, you’re assessment of the 2011 Mavericks goes:
1. Dirk
2. JET
3. Marion
4. Kidd/Chandler
5. Chandler/Kidd.


Now I know who I’m dealing with.

Thanks.

Can we agree that the star of last year's playoffs and regular season was….

The 5 man lineup of Tyson/Dirk/Marion/Terry/Kidd?

It was the perfect closing lineup. Terry and Dirk were the offense Tyson Marion and Kidd were the defense. This is like arguing whether the walls or the ceiling of a house are more important. Except for the fact that Dirk was the foundation of everything.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

Can we agree that the star of last year's playoffs and regular season was….

The 5 man lineup of Tyson/Dirk/Marion/Terry/Kidd?

It was the perfect closing lineup. Terry and Dirk were the offense Tyson Marion and Kidd were the defense. This is like arguing whether the walls or the ceiling of a house are more important. Except for the fact that Dirk was the foundation of everything.

I'll drink to that.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Absolutely.

Dirk and Terry were our best two players without a doubt and Shawn Marion was the guy who guarded Kobe/LeBron/Durant/Wade/Westbrook (you know, the best players in the league). I'd also argue that Kidd was every bit as important on offense as Chandler was on defense, so, yeah, I could even make the argument that Ty the fifth-best player on that championship squad...

I agree that Jason Terry was an integral part of our championship roster and came up clutch throughout the entire postseason run. Without his contributions, we likely don’t have a banner being raised – particularly in the Miami series where he shot .494. That said, I do believe you are overstating the role he played by anointing him to be the 2nd best player on the 2011 roster because you are ignoring the two major flaws in JET’s game:

First, he is a streaky shooter who is reliant upon both screens, floor spacing, and the 2-man game with Nowitzki to truly be an offensive option. Coupled with Dirk, his offensive game is a beautiful, beautiful thing, but he is not the caliber of player that many teams would consider a legitimate second option. If you place him on the four remaining postseason teams, where would he rank as far as offensive totem pole? On the Celtics, he’d likely be fifth after Pierce, KG, Allen, and Rondo. On a healthy Heat team, he’d be fourth. On a OKC team, he’d be fourth. On a San Antonio team, he’d be fourth. On every team we rampaged through in the post season last year, he would likely only be a third option on the Blazers and that’s only when the corpse of Brandon Roy decided not to show up. The main point is this: JET is a great player for our system but he would not survive on many teams being the 2nd scorer as an undersized 2guard who is mostly reliant upon the attention being paid to Dirk to truly benefit from the offense.
Conversely, if you remove Tyson Chandler from Dirk’s team and all you have left is someone who wins the defensive player of the year.

Second, Jason Terry is a notoriously poor defender. Given the defensive liabilities that are both he and Jason Kidd when it comes to guarding larger and quicker players respectively, having Tyson behind them to funnel defenders was the difference last year than in years before. When teams attacked us via the PnR last year, having an agile defender who could hedge hard and roll back was key. Once that was taken away, a player like, say, James Harden, would have no trouble dominating us in the paint via a simple high screen and roll play.
Chandler is no Al Jefferson on offense, but he at the very least had to be accountable for and hit his freethrows with high regularity. Again, that’s not saying that much if you take a step back, but considering the current state of NBA centers, it’s more than adequate.

Originally Posted by Underdog

But you go ahead and keep pumping up Chandler's importance during that run - the revisionists are already crediting him for guarding Aldridge and Bynum, even though the incredibly-worthless Brendan Haywood was the guy who gave them fits... By the time the offseason is over, I'm sure you'll be crediting him for Dirk's lefty lay-in over Bosh, Kidd's Game 5 buzzer-beater against the Heat and, hell, why not give him Terry's record-tying three-pointers against the Lakers too?

As far as the Marion guarding all the top players in the league during the playoff run, I believe you are either misstating facts or lying. The most potent scorer vs the Blazers was Aldridge and that was defense by committee amongst the bigs, but mostly Chandler. Vs the Lakers, it was Kidd who got the credit of checking Kobe, not Marion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayIynMatcys This clip highlights his contributions from the 1st through the 4th. As I’m sure you recall, during the regular season’s Roddy experiment, Kidd was forced to guard Artest and Marion handled Kobe so Roddy could be forced back into the rotation. The outcome was horrendous – Artest physically bullied Kidd and had his way with him. RickyC made the adjustment of putting Kidd on Kobe and allowing Marion to play Artest and it worked out beautifully. For you to suggest that Marion checked Kobe primarily is, as I said before, either a misstaqtement of the truth or a flat out lie.
VS the Thunder, Marion primarily guarded Durant throughout the game and was credited with doing as valiant a job as anyone. Not sure how you can claim that he simultaneously guarded Durant and Westbrook without also claiming that Shawn Marion can split in two like an atom. Also, why didn’t you throw in Harden to the list of people Marion shut down? Did you think that would be too much of an overstatement? So there’s that.
Again, vs the Heat, it’s the same issue. Marion covered LeBron, Kidd covered Wade. And I thought Marion did an excellent job on Lebron and Kidd a so-so job on Wade. You insisting that Marion is a modern day Deion Sanders that covers any and everyone simultaneously would be laughable if I did not believe you to be serious.


Do note that I never brought up Chandler’s post defense vs Aldridge or Bynum so your strawman argument is ill placed. But, since you want to discuss that, lets.

You know, those 15 minutes per game Haywood played in the 2011 playoffs were key in making sure Aldridge didn’t average his customary 21 ppg in the playoffs. He only averaged 20. Haywood’s 18 minutes were definitely the difference in us winning and losing that series. With Aldridge was playing 43 minutes a game, can you imagine what his statline would have been if Haywood's 18 minutes weren't utilized? He may have even cracked 25 ppg. Scary shit.

It also didn’t matter that the 2 games we lost to Portland, Chandler either fouled out or had 5 fouls and we were forced to play Haywood more minutes. Lets just completely ignore those facts and embrace yours.

Furthermore, there is little question that without the 15.5 minutes Haywood put into the Laker series, Bynum would have destroyed the Mavericks en route to averaging a whole 15 ppg. While Tyson was busy being overrated and playing 31 minutes a game, Haywood was out there doing the real work and got no credit.

I won't credit Tyson with all of those offensive accomplishments you listed because they came as a result of the beautiful offensive game that was built around Dirk. Conversely, I do not think it improper to give Tyson as much of the share of the defensive praise that we give Dirk for the offensive one.

Afterall, Dirk did when he, early in the season, predicted that Chandler's impact defensively was not only comparable, but on par, with the defensive impact KG had on the 08 Celtics that won the title. If the franchise player is willing to go that far and credit one man with changing the culture and perception of the notoriously defensively soft Mavericks, why is it so hard for you to? I suppose you reckon you have more of an understanding of the team dynamics than Dirk, JET and Marion did.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Jon

As far as the Marion guarding all the top players in the league during the playoff run, I believe you are either misstating facts or lying. The most potent scorer vs the Blazers was Aldridge and that was defense by committee amongst the bigs, but mostly Chandler. Vs the Lakers, it was Kidd who got the credit of checking Kobe, not Marion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayIynMatcys This clip highlights his contributions from the 1st through the 4th. As I’m sure you recall, during the regular season’s Roddy experiment, Kidd was forced to guard Artest and Marion handled Kobe so Roddy could be forced back into the rotation. The outcome was horrendous – Artest physically bullied Kidd and had his way with him. RickyC made the adjustment of putting Kidd on Kobe and allowing Marion to play Artest and it worked out beautifully. For you to suggest that Marion checked Kobe primarily is, as I said before, either a misstaqtement of the truth or a flat out lie.
VS the Thunder, Marion primarily guarded Durant throughout the game and was credited with doing as valiant a job as anyone. Not sure how you can claim that he simultaneously guarded Durant and Westbrook without also claiming that Shawn Marion can split in two like an atom. Also, why didn’t you throw in Harden to the list of people Marion shut down? Did you think that would be too much of an overstatement? So there’s that.
Again, vs the Heat, it’s the same issue. Marion covered LeBron, Kidd covered Wade. And I thought Marion did an excellent job on Lebron and Kidd a so-so job on Wade. You insisting that Marion is a modern day Deion Sanders that covers any and everyone simultaneously would be laughable if I did not believe you to be serious.

What a whopper of a straw man. As far as I can tell, he never said that he guarded Kobe "primarily". But he certainly guarded him. He guarded him for a large chunk of game 2, as I recall, because the Lakers went small and played Kobe at SF. And to just to set the record straight, the adjustment was to put Stevenson into the starting lineup and let him check Kobe, not make Kidd do it for the entire game.

Marion also spent plenty of time guarding Wade. Lebron was his primary responsibility, but saying he guarded Wade is not a fabrication at all.

Other than tacking Westbrook on the end, I don't find anything wrong at all about the claim that Marion spent the playoffs guarding the NBA's elite. And it's not like UD was trying to downplay or ignore Kidd's contributions.

As for Haywood, if you don't think he was critical to winning the Portland series then you need to go back and re-watch.

I won't credit Tyson with all of those offensive accomplishments you listed because they came as a result of the beautiful offensive game that was built around Dirk. Conversely, I do not think it improper to give Tyson as much of the share of the defensive praise that we give Dirk for the offensive one.

It's your prerogative to give Chandler as much credit as you wish for the defensive play of the 2011 Mavs. My quibble will always be with the fact that the defense didn't suffer nearly as much as it should have if we let a DPOY quality player walk with no significant replacement.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Jon

I agree that Jason Terry was an integral part of our championship roster and came up clutch throughout the entire postseason run. Without his contributions, we likely don’t have a banner being raised – particularly in the Miami series where he shot .494. That said, I do believe you are overstating the role he played by anointing him to be the 2nd best player on the 2011 roster because you are ignoring the two major flaws in JET’s game:

First, he is a streaky shooter who is reliant upon both screens, floor spacing, and the 2-man game with Nowitzki to truly be an offensive option. Coupled with Dirk, his offensive game is a beautiful, beautiful thing, but he is not the caliber of player that many teams would consider a legitimate second option. If you place him on the four remaining postseason teams, where would he rank as far as offensive totem pole? On the Celtics, he’d likely be fifth after Pierce, KG, Allen, and Rondo. On a healthy Heat team, he’d be fourth. On a OKC team, he’d be fourth. On a San Antonio team, he’d be fourth. On every team we rampaged through in the post season last year, he would likely only be a third option on the Blazers and that’s only when the corpse of Brandon Roy decided not to show up. The main point is this: JET is a great player for our system but he would not survive on many teams being the 2nd scorer as an undersized 2guard who is mostly reliant upon the attention being paid to Dirk to truly benefit from the offense.
Conversely, if you remove Tyson Chandler from Dirk’s team and all you have left is someone who wins the defensive player of the year.

Second, Jason Terry is a notoriously poor defender. Given the defensive liabilities that are both he and Jason Kidd when it comes to guarding larger and quicker players respectively, having Tyson behind them to funnel defenders was the difference last year than in years before. When teams attacked us via the PnR last year, having an agile defender who could hedge hard and roll back was key. Once that was taken away, a player like, say, James Harden, would have no trouble dominating us in the paint via a simple high screen and roll play.
Chandler is no Al Jefferson on offense, but he at the very least had to be accountable for and hit his freethrows with high regularity. Again, that’s not saying that much if you take a step back, but considering the current state of NBA centers, it’s more than adequate.

As far as the Marion guarding all the top players in the league during the playoff run, I believe you are either misstating facts or lying. The most potent scorer vs the Blazers was Aldridge and that was defense by committee amongst the bigs, but mostly Chandler. Vs the Lakers, it was Kidd who got the credit of checking Kobe, not Marion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayIynMatcys This clip highlights his contributions from the 1st through the 4th. As I’m sure you recall, during the regular season’s Roddy experiment, Kidd was forced to guard Artest and Marion handled Kobe so Roddy could be forced back into the rotation. The outcome was horrendous – Artest physically bullied Kidd and had his way with him. RickyC made the adjustment of putting Kidd on Kobe and allowing Marion to play Artest and it worked out beautifully. For you to suggest that Marion checked Kobe primarily is, as I said before, either a misstaqtement of the truth or a flat out lie.
VS the Thunder, Marion primarily guarded Durant throughout the game and was credited with doing as valiant a job as anyone. Not sure how you can claim that he simultaneously guarded Durant and Westbrook without also claiming that Shawn Marion can split in two like an atom. Also, why didn’t you throw in Harden to the list of people Marion shut down? Did you think that would be too much of an overstatement? So there’s that.
Again, vs the Heat, it’s the same issue. Marion covered LeBron, Kidd covered Wade. And I thought Marion did an excellent job on Lebron and Kidd a so-so job on Wade. You insisting that Marion is a modern day Deion Sanders that covers any and everyone simultaneously would be laughable if I did not believe you to be serious.


Do note that I never brought up Chandler’s post defense vs Aldridge or Bynum so your strawman argument is ill placed. But, since you want to discuss that, lets.

You know, those 15 minutes per game Haywood played in the 2011 playoffs were key in making sure Aldridge didn’t average his customary 21 ppg in the playoffs. He only averaged 20. Haywood’s 18 minutes were definitely the difference in us winning and losing that series. With Aldridge was playing 43 minutes a game, can you imagine what his statline would have been if Haywood's 18 minutes weren't utilized? He may have even cracked 25 ppg. Scary shit.

It also didn’t matter that the 2 games we lost to Portland, Chandler either fouled out or had 5 fouls and we were forced to play Haywood more minutes. Lets just completely ignore those facts and embrace yours.

Furthermore, there is little question that without the 15.5 minutes Haywood put into the Laker series, Bynum would have destroyed the Mavericks en route to averaging a whole 15 ppg. While Tyson was busy being overrated and playing 31 minutes a game, Haywood was out there doing the real work and got no credit.

I won't credit Tyson with all of those offensive accomplishments you listed because they came as a result of the beautiful offensive game that was built around Dirk. Conversely, I do not think it improper to give Tyson as much of the share of the defensive praise that we give Dirk for the offensive one.

Afterall, Dirk did when he, early in the season, predicted that Chandler's impact defensively was not only comparable, but on par, with the defensive impact KG had on the 08 Celtics that won the title. If the franchise player is willing to go that far and credit one man with changing the culture and perception of the notoriously defensively soft Mavericks, why is it so hard for you to? I suppose you reckon you have more of an understanding of the team dynamics than Dirk, JET and Marion did.

Wow, you put so many words in my mouth and seem to be forgetting/ignoring so much that actually happened during our championship run that I couldn't possibly respond to this post without picking apart every single sentence... But what's the point when you so clearly have an unwavering agenda to inflate Tyson Chandler's value beyond what it already was? And of course you couldn't resist dragging Terry's and Marion's contributions through the mud to make your point, as if Chandler CARRIED this team trough the playoffs...

Like I said before, we're going to have to agree to disagree about Tyson Chandler - the picture you're trying to paint doesn't match the reality that I observed whatsoever.

[LonghornDub]

I simply love the insinuation that Jason Terry has "major flaws to his game" but Tyson Chandler doesn't.

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I simply love the insinuation that Jason Terry has "major flaws to his game" but Tyson Chandler doesn't.

now if we could put them together into one player……

I'd give the max to Jayson Thandler in a millisecond!

In all seriousness they helped each other out a ton.

[Kidd Karma]

I'm in Norcal and get GSW talk, but pretty much the same discussion about centers and value came up last night. New GSW GM Bob Myers was on and defending the Monta-Bogut trade. As one of the finalist for Chandler, GSW brass realized it is difficult to get a good center, due to scarcity, which leads to a higher dollar value. Then discussion turned to the quantity of 7 footers between 20-40, there are less than 70 in America.

http://marginalrevolution.com/margin...n-the-nba.html

Due to supply and demand, the value is definitely going to be high for a 7 footer...now add on to that a productive 7 footer

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

now if we could put them together into one player……

I'd give the max to Jayson Thandler in a millisecond!

In all seriousness they helped each other out a ton.

Something, something... Jyson Cherry

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

now if we could put them together into one player……

I'd give the max to Jayson Thandler in a millisecond!

In all seriousness they helped each other out a ton.

Quite right.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Something, something... Jyson Cherry

Lol.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I simply love the insinuation that Jason Terry has "major flaws to his game" but Tyson Chandler doesn't.

If you read closely, I openly discussed what his major flaws were; however, unlike Terry, his game can transfer from team to team without a major dropoff in his effectiveness.

That is why he won the DPOY.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Wow, you put so many words in my mouth and seem to be forgetting/ignoring so much that actually happened during our championship run that I couldn't possibly respond to this post without picking apart every single sentence... But what's the point when you so clearly have an unwavering agenda to inflate Tyson Chandler's value beyond what it already was? And of course you couldn't resist dragging Terry's and Marion's contributions through the mud to make your point, as if Chandler CARRIED this team trough the playoffs...

Like I said before, we're going to have to agree to disagree about Tyson Chandler - the picture you're trying to paint doesn't match the reality that I observed whatsoever.

See, now is when I begin to wonder about your reading comprehension. Do explain how saying Terry was an integral part of the team and we wouldn't win without him equates to "dragging through the mud." I enjoy your contention that be suggesting a notoriously poor defender having the benefit of an agile center behind him to curb penetration is the same as "dragging him through the mud."

Also, I love that me saying Marion did a beautiful job checking Durant and James is dragging his name through the mud.


My unwavering agenda is to simply point out Tyson's worth. In 2010, after the Spurs pick and rolled us to death, the offseason resulted in us picking up someone we thought could help out in PnR defense because of their agility. What we got was someone who helped us in a myriad of other ways.

As far as inflating Tyson's true value, I've yet to hail any praise on Tyson that have not been echoed by the words of Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Terry, or Shawn Marion. I'm wrong. JET's wrong. Marion's wrong. Dirk is wrong. We're all wrong.

But you. Right?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Jon

If you read closely, I openly discussed what his major flaws were; however, unlike Terry, his game can transfer from team to team without a major dropoff in his effectiveness.

That is why he won the DPOY.

How does "his game can transfer from team to team" (which, for the record, makes no sense) have any bearing on who the second best player was on a single, particular team?

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pretty much anybody!

Lol'd!?

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

What's wrong with calling all 4 of them overpaid? It's winner's remorse. The Nuggets were a prime example. In general all free agents are overpaid (Delonte West aside). You have to choose who you overpay. Just because you have to pay them that to get them doesn't magically make them worth it.

We can stop talking about Tyson (I'm a big advocate of trying to not talk about Tyson) since a few people are grumbling. The alternative would be to talk about…. Hibbert I guess?

I agree completely with this statement:


I disagree about the part where Tyson doesn't cripple our chances at winning championships in the future (not this year, we'd obviously been better this year). No way Deron/Dwight come without full cap space.

Let's not rehash all the arguments about it though. Let's just not post anything as we inwardly hope Deron signs with us next month.

I dont think Gasol is overpaid.

[balldontliez]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Unbelievable that some posters here still can't acknowledge Tyson's obvious offensive impact. It's not like he's lead the league in true shooting for the last two years, it's not like he was a top-10 offensive win shares player this year, it's not like he had 9 offensive rebounds in a critical game 5 win against Miami in the finals, it's not like he had 13 offensive rebounds in a pivotal game 5 win against Portland, it's not like his involvement in the high screen against Miami in game 2 of the finals had nothing to do with our comeback, it's not like he plainly and obviously opens the floor for Dirk and for guards that penetrate, it's not like he averaged the most points at the center position for us since when Nash was on the team... no, of course not. Of course all our core player's offensive numbers magically dipped this year and not a single percentage of the reason why is because they lost a player that actually presents an offensive threat at the center position out on the court with them.

I agree. Infinite eyerolls.

good post.

[balldontliez]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Damn that's a fine post. It's strange that folks who really are very astute basketball observers seem to forget that it's a 5 man game. Maybe there is just too much sportscenter, diving into the lane for free throws to appreciate how having someone you can just throw a lob upto means that ibaka cannot come up and challenge someone at the free throw line. I mean how many times did we see jet challenged there by ibaka, that just doesn't happen with Tyson back there waiting to slam down a 95% shot.

very astute observation...nice