IS Jason Kidd Capable..... - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 05-05-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

Prodigy Dyb, Fluid Fortyone,

After rethinking things I have to admit that i was wrong and you guys were right.

jason kidd is an awesome player and a great addition to this Mavericks team.

His defense in the playoffs series on Chris Paul and Pargo was superb and he brought it every night on the offensive side of the ball.

Jason Kidd is one of the greatest ever. Those that cant see that are blind.

REMEMBER WHEN DEVIN HARRIS BEAT THE GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS IN THE PLAYOFFS??? THAT WAS AWESOME!!!

fluid.forty.one · 05-05-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

REMEMBER WHEN DEVIN HARRIS BEAT THE GOLDEN STATE WARRIORS IN THE PLAYOFFS??? THAT WAS AWESOME!!!

yeah, but at least he contained Baron Davis.

Underdog · 05-05-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

yeah, but at least he contained Baron Davis.

For everyone who didn't catch your sarcasm (or remember history), here's a comparison between Baron's regular season and the playoff series against Dallas (featuring Devin Harris at PG):

06-07 season - 20.1 ppg // FG - 44% // 3P - 30%

06-07 playoffs - 25.3 ppg // FG - 51% // 3P - 37%

Knickfan · 05-05-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

I honestly can't believe you guys are arguing about having an offensive guru on the team who can pass amazingly and has perfect court vision, especially after watching our team cram isolation down the opponents throats year after year.

Things would have been different against Miami, and maybe Golden State, if we had someone who could distribute the ball better than Devin Harris or Jason Freakin Terry.

I agree with you on this statement. Devin Harris was a nice scorer and probably a better scorer than Kidd but he did NO distributing of the ball (or not enough) and Terry..... HE'S NO POINT GUARD!!!!!

As far as Kidd goes, I think EVERYONE is rushing to judgment on this guy. He hasn't had any time in getting to know the system or the people around him or getting comfortable. There's no reason to go and jump ship after only two and half months of really playing with someone. Maybe as he gets comfortable with his surroundings that may change.

LSMF · 05-05-2008, 11:45 PM

You guys do know Kidd allowed Cp3 to shoot 61% in the playoffs right? Keep trying to say that he would have done the same to Devin, in your hearts you know the truth.

Underdog · 05-06-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

You guys do know Kidd allowed Cp3 to shoot 61% in the playoffs right? Keep trying to say that he would have done the same to Devin, in your hearts you know the truth.

Dec 1 - Devin Harris allowed Chris Paul to score 33 points in a 112-108 Hornets victory, Devin scored 8 points...

Dec 14 - Devin Harris allowed Chris Paul to score 22 points in a 89-80 Mavs victory, Devin scored 10 points...

Devin Harris scored 9.0 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 27.5 ppg in 2 regular season games...

Jason Kidd scored 8.6 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 24.6 ppg in 5 playoff games...

What makes you think Harris would have been any more effective against Paul than Kidd??? The only thing we've proven here is that CP3 can smoke the best PGs in the league with ease (as Tony Parker is discovering - there's a reason why Paul was MY choice for MVP this season!)

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-06-2008, 08:46 AM

Are we really going to argue about the same thing over and over this summer?

Kidd is a better all-around player, but Harris provides some essential intangibles. I guess time will tell which one is more important.

To be honest, there really are ten Harris's for every Kidd. I just hope the team puts a young point under Kidd's wing to take over when Kidd retires. There are some nice points in the draft, and I'm crossing my fingers for Ramon Sessions to become a free agent.

Underdog · 05-06-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Are we really going to argue about the same thing over and over this summer?

Kidd is a better all-around player, but Harris provides some essential intangibles. I guess time will tell which one is more important.

To be honest, there really are ten Harris's for every Kidd. I just hope the team puts a young point under Kidd's wing to take over when Kidd retires. There are some nice points in the draft, and I'm crossing my fingers for Ramon Sessions to become a free agent.

I'd like to think my last line sums up the argument - nobody can stop Chris Paul, so it doesn't matter who we have on point...

Do you want to lose with Jason Kidd or do you want to lose with Devin Harris?

Knickfan · 05-06-2008, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Do you want to lose with Jason Kidd or do you want to lose with Devin Harris?

Probably not lose at all but I get your point.

Underdog · 05-06-2008, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knickfan

Probably not lose at all but I get your point.

Devin Harris scored 9.0 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 27.5 ppg in 2 regular season games...

Jason Kidd scored 8.6 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 24.6 ppg in 5 playoff games...

Is there something in these (nearly identical) numbers that indicates Devin would be better against Paul than Kidd?

It's not like Avery would suddenly stop overcoaching Devin, so his numbers with the Nets have NOTHING to do with how he'd perform in a Mavs uniform...

Also, Devin Harris was injured for two weeks after the Kidd trade - we would have missed the playoffs if we lost a few more games with Harris on the bench...

Knickfan · 05-06-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Devin Harris scored 9.0 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 27.5 ppg in 2 regular season games...

Jason Kidd scored 8.6 ppg and allowed Chris Paul 24.6 ppg in 5 playoff games...

Is there something in these (nearly identical) numbers that indicates Devin would be better against Paul than Kidd?

It's not like Avery would suddenly stop overcoaching Devin, so his numbers with the Nets have NOTHING to do with how he'd perform in a Mavs uniform...

Also, Devin Harris was injured for two weeks after the Kidd trade - we would have missed the playoffs if we lost a few more games with Harris on the bench...

Actually I think Kidd IS better than Harris NOW but Harris will be around and he's ONLY going to get better. So personally I think the trade was a wash personally, I was more pissed about losing Diop than Harris BUT at the end of the day his point about Chris Paul being virtually unstoppable is very valid, Kidd didn't stop him and Harris wasn't going to stop him either.

The bottom line is Kidd is one of the greatest ever and Harris probably won't, so to say one is better than the other to me doesn't even warrant an argument but at the end of the day I don't think it matters WHO we had on the court, Paul was going to own them too.

ghazi · 05-06-2008, 09:48 AM

agreed, only part of the trade I didn't like were TWO draft picks AND Diop.

the PG swap is definitely a short term upgrade though.

Who knows though, Wright has a lot of potential, if he can develop into a nice player, maybe the anti-Kidd people will lighten up.

Kinda reminds me of the Pau Gasol trade. it seems lopsided, but let's not forget the GRizz got a nice young PG/SG in Javaris Crittenton, who has a lot of upside IMO.

Tokey41 · 05-06-2008, 07:18 PM

Comparing Harris against GS and Kidd against NO is ridiculous on so many levels, it was the SAME result. We got owned.

Is that your point? If that's the case then your only supporting the nay sayers argument... this trade didn't make us better, and we're 10 years older at the point. We're supposed to 'win now' but its so mind numbingly obvious that we didn't improve our team significantly with this trade. The only thing that will change my mind is a championship but mark my words.. it won't happen with this roster, we sacrificed too much for too little.

Furthermore to add to my misery, we are now stuck with a 35 year old crotch grabbing, wife beating pervert with a gigantic contract (what an addition to the HOF! Right up there with Karl Malone). The ONLY positive thing out of this trade will inevitably be the 20 million dollar contract we might be able to trade, and we probably won't... because that would be far too logical after a 10-20 start that will be blamed on an individual player or the new coach.

dude1394 · 05-06-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Comparing Harris against GS and Kidd against NO is ridiculous on so many levels, it was the SAME result. We got owned.

Is that your point? If that's the case then your only supporting the nay sayers argument... this trade didn't make us better, and we're 10 years older at the point. We're supposed to 'win now' but its so mind numbingly obvious that we didn't improve our team significantly with this trade. The only thing that will change my mind is a championship but mark my words.. it won't happen with this roster, we sacrificed too much for too little.

Furthermore to add to my misery, we are now stuck with a 35 year old crotch grabbing, wife beating pervert with a gigantic contract (what an addition to the HOF! Right up there with Karl Malone). The ONLY positive thing out of this trade will inevitably be the 20 million dollar contract we might be able to trade, and we probably won't... because that would be far too logical after a 10-20 start that will be blamed on an individual player or the new coach.

You can rant if you want but to say that the "only thing that will change my mind is a championship" is so ludicrous. So with devin we WERE going to win a championship? Good grief.

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-06-2008, 10:33 PM

Keeping Harris wouldn't have made a difference last season because Avery was coach.

None of us know what the roster will look like next season so knowing who is best suited to fit the team is moot at this point. I'm not worried about Kidd at all. Remember when SA relied on the old Terry Porter (who had Parker under his wing).....that is exactly what the Mavs can do to erase the memory of the trade. Just get a young pg prospect to back up Kidd and we'll be fine.

ghazi · 05-06-2008, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Comparing Harris against GS and Kidd against NO is ridiculous on so many levels, it was the SAME result. We got owned.

Is that your point? If that's the case then your only supporting the nay sayers argument... this trade didn't make us better, and we're 10 years older at the point. We're supposed to 'win now' but its so mind numbingly obvious that we didn't improve our team significantly with this trade. The only thing that will change my mind is a championship but mark my words.. it won't happen with this roster, we sacrificed too much for too little.

Furthermore to add to my misery, we are now stuck with a 35 year old crotch grabbing, wife beating pervert with a gigantic contract (what an addition to the HOF! Right up there with Karl Malone). The ONLY positive thing out of this trade will inevitably be the 20 million dollar contract we might be able to trade, and we probably won't... because that would be far too logical after a 10-20 start that will be blamed on an individual player or the new coach.

his off the court issues are absolutely irrelevant when it comes to mavs basketball, dont take cheap shots!

Tokey41 · 05-07-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

You can rant if you want but to say that the "only thing that will change my mind is a championship" is so ludicrous. So with devin we WERE going to win a championship? Good grief.

The point was that I believe ours chances would have been better without the trade... and like I said, if we don't get a championship out of this I don't see how it was worth it. Not a championship? How about a finals appearance and 67 wins? We know the team was capable of that at the very least as it was constructed. Now we'll never know what could have been with a little more experience.

I blame the failure of the team in the previous seasons on Avery more than anything. Our roster was fine with the exception of a quality two guard (which we could have EASILY obtained at no cost at this trade deadline) and a low post presence.

Quote:

his off the court issues are absolutely irrelevant when it comes to mavs basketball, dont take cheap shots!

We had several threads following his off court antics in the around the NBA section before he became a Mav. I see no reason to change my views because he's wearing a different uniform. The man is just a poor human being and role model... who happens to be a good basketball player.

foglemann · 05-07-2008, 08:49 PM

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

LSMF · 05-07-2008, 11:28 PM

I agree with Tokey41

alby · 05-08-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

His numbers actually went down as the season wore on in New Jersey. And the real PG of New Jersey's future, Marcus Williams, got more playing time down the stretch.

foglemann · 05-08-2008, 09:38 AM

Exactly my point. The guy is inconsistent as hell. Some games he's great, some games he shouldn't even play. Add to the fact that he misses around 20 games a year, I don't feel his upside is as high as everyone makes it out to be, this will be his 5 year in the league. I blame Avery for a lot of his problems, but the guy just was never worth the #5 pick in the draft.

Kidd Karma · 05-08-2008, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

Hmm, interesting comparison, in that Avery seemingly wanted to mirror Pop and the SA orgnization. The reaming Pop gave the 19-20-21 year old Parker, has finally shown it's rewards, the past 2 seasons. Maybe Avery was trying to emulate what Pop was doing, limiting Harris' on court duties, problem is while Pop was doing it, Spurs were winning rings. While Avery was doing it, nothing. More of a backlash that he didn't allow Harris more latitude, now he's in NJ with more freedom/responsibilities.

Kidd Karma · 05-08-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

Hmm, interesting comparison, in that Avery seemingly wanted to mirror Pop and the SA orgnization. The reaming Pop gave the 19-20-21 year old Parker, has finally shown it's rewards, the past 2 seasons. Maybe Avery was trying to emulate what Pop was doing, limiting Harris' on court duties, problem is while Pop was doing it, Spurs were winning rings. While Avery was doing it, nothing. More of a backlash that he didn't allow Harris more latitude, now he's in NJ with more freedom/responsibilities.

Kidd Karma · 05-08-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

Hmm, interesting comparison, in that Avery seemingly wanted to mirror Pop and the SA orgnization. The reaming Pop gave the 19-20-21 year old Parker, has finally shown it's rewards, the past 2 seasons. Maybe Avery was trying to emulate what Pop was doing, limiting Harris' on court duties, problem is while Pop was doing it, Spurs were winning rings. While Avery was doing it, nothing. More of a backlash that he didn't allow Harris more latitude, now he's in NJ with more freedom/responsibilities.

Tokey41 · 05-08-2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foglemann

And I'd love for anyone to look at the numbers Devin put up with the Nets and really tell me that guy is for sure going to get better. To me, he is what he is, a Tony Parker want to be without the smarts to do anything consistently.

Are you really going to judge him based on the small amount of games he's played thus far in New Jersey? Please. I can judge Kidd ALL day long because we were supposed to be winning now and failed miserably with another first round exit. My only hope for this team making a 180 from the direction they are going is adding a far superior coach and making some player changes, and Kidd's contract could be the best trading piece we have so I wouldn't be opposed to shopping him around.

With Harris there was and still is (for NJ) the potential of upside, I think his near triple double miss proves that. That's all anyone can say at this point. With Kidd what you see is what you get, I don't expect him to become a 20 ppg guy anytime soon but I think Devin is more than capable of that feat as soon as he gets his feet wet without an idiotic coach.

EricaLubarsky · 12-26-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bathouse Bear

of scoring points for the Mavs in the 4th quarter?????

One of the big reasons I have zero confidence in the Mavs ability to win close games is that we are playing 3 on 5 in terms of offensive ability when Kidd and Dampier are in the game.

Dampier plays a huge role in our defense and rebounding, thus its imperative he is in the game in crunch times.

Most of the time it looks like Jason Kidd is too scared to take a shot or take it to the hole.

It seem like the guys at dallasbasketball.com want to blame everyone else except Jason Kidd on why the Mavs rarely win close games.

just to confuse people