Post Game Thread DAL @ PHO: 4th Quarter was a Joke - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

CadBane · 01-29-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Charles Barlkey was right on last night about Dirk (and DHoward). I hate to admit it.

Our star just can not be pushed around and dominated by Grant Hill. Regardless of what he was getting away with. You can't be the victim continuously like that.

That would be the cherry on top to make a move if I was still on the fence about it. We have seen this all to often, no one can help Dirk on nights like this. Jet said something like "it's amazing how we are half way thru the season and still can't find our way in the 4th qrtr" or something very close to that. Well, stop panicing when Dirk doesn't come thru every single posession and carry the load a bit.

Yeah, Grant Hill "pushed and bullied" Dirk the WHOLE f'ing 3rd Quarter.

Guess what? Dirk had 12 points.

The fact is, the Mavs simply went AWAY from Dirk in the 4th, regardless of Hill's mugging. Trying to put that on Dirk is BS, plain and simple. Hill did the SAME thing in the 3rd and 4th. You tell me the difference between the 2 quarters.

CadBane · 01-29-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I honestly felt like Dirk quit trying at some point. Now whether that's over frustration over how he was being played or frustration over not getting the ball I don't know.

Am I only the only one that felt like Hill was being allowed to play defense extremely aggressively? I felt like that was the difference last night. Kind of like what happens when you play Utah at their place.

I actually agree with this. And Dirk shouldn't give up, but I thin he was really really really frustrated about not getting the ball. Anyone that plays basketball knows how that goes, and I'll admit I've done it before. You are scoring, then suddenly get frozen out of the offense, and you just stop trying. You stop moving on offense, stop even making an effort, because you haven't gotten the ball for 5 minutes when you KNOW you should have. Basically, you just say "F it."

I dk wtf you people saying Hill stopped Dirk are getting at? You realize Dirk had JUST scored 12 points on Hill in the 3rd despite getting mugged. In the 4th, the Mavs just STOPPED going to him. Honestly, it is THAT simple. What did Hill do different in the 3rd and 4th? What did the Mavs do different? Hmmm

aurelino9 · 01-29-2010, 05:48 PM

Hill was denying Dirk the ball as well as position very aggressively. He was either fronting or standing his ground in the post. Plus, the Suns were frequently double-teaming.
Dirk scored those 12 points because he was fighting for position and attacking. Towards the end, that didn't happen and the ball was more in the hands of Terry, who can't create unless he goes to his right or there's an open lane.

This team needs i) a scoring wing player, ii) a real backup PG, and iii) a backup F/C, and unless they make a trade this team will be hard-pressed to go past the second round.

jthig32 · 01-29-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

I actually agree with this. And Dirk shouldn't give up, but I thin he was really really really frustrated about not getting the ball. Anyone that plays basketball knows how that goes, and I'll admit I've done it before. You are scoring, then suddenly get frozen out of the offense, and you just stop trying. You stop moving on offense, stop even making an effort, because you haven't gotten the ball for 5 minutes when you KNOW you should have. Basically, you just say "F it."

I dk wtf you people saying Hill stopped Dirk are getting at? You realize Dirk had JUST scored 12 points on Hill in the 3rd despite getting mugged. In the 4th, the Mavs just STOPPED going to him. Honestly, it is THAT simple. What did Hill do different in the 3rd and 4th? What did the Mavs do different? Hmmm

Eight of those points were on free throws. I'm not saying Hill stopped him so much as he made it very difficult to catch the ball. He was bear hugging and grappling with Dirk all night. Dirk was clearly frustrated with all the contact and no whistles, I'm not really sure how you can debate that.

I'm just saying Hill was allowed to make it hard for Dirk to get his normal positions by constantly fouling him without being called for it.

CadBane · 01-29-2010, 05:56 PM

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was concurring. Dirk definitely was frustrated with the no calls, and then the no touches. I wasn't really addressing you with the latter. I'm saying to people who think Hill kept Dirk from getting touches in the 4th, he didn't. The Mavs did. If the Mavs went to Dirk, I guarantee he'd have shot some more fts.

And yes, Hill's "defense" was absurd. I've never really seen a player get away with such blatant holding since Bowen. Honestly, how can a player hold a guy's waist and arms right in front of a ref with no call? What about that is not a foul?

BGMaverick9 · 01-29-2010, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Bingo.

Jet played well tonight, but they have to work so freaking hard to get him open looks when teams are concentrating on him. It's a bit like Reggie Miller towards the end of his career.

Kevin Martin (or someone else that can create offense from the perimeter) would have absolutely punished the Suns for focusing on Dirk the way they did.

That's why they absolutely have to try to shoot for the targets that have been mentioned as of late and use Josh to obtain it.

Do you sacrifice cap to get it? If Sacramento is down with a deal but they say you have to take Beno...what if everything else dries up and that's all that is left? Do you just fold and roll with the season knowing it's going to take some magical for them to win and take your chances in the summer or do you sacrifice?

They clearly need to add another weapon with Dirk and Jet.

SMC0007 · 01-29-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Yeah, Grant Hill "pushed and bullied" Dirk the WHOLE f'ing 3rd Quarter.

Guess what? Dirk had 12 points.

The fact is, the Mavs simply went AWAY from Dirk in the 4th, regardless of Hill's mugging. Trying to put that on Dirk is BS, plain and simple. Hill did the SAME thing in the 3rd and 4th. You tell me the difference between the 2 quarters.

http://www.nba.com/video/games/suns/...nba/index.html

Just go to 8:40 ish. Let chuck help you.

You can try to blame the rest of the team for Dirks play in the 4th if you want but it makes no sense to me. Fact is he could not control the block on last night it just sucks it was against Grant Hill. There was already a turnover by forcing the ball in to him because he wasn't holding his psition and keeping him on his hip. I also remember a few times when Dirk had the ball he gave it to Gooden, which was a dumb move at those times because he should know a shot was going up.

Somehow you want to have others believe it was game planned to go "away" from Dirk. Ridiculous.

dirno2000 · 01-29-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I honestly felt like Dirk quit trying at some point. Now whether that's over frustration over how he was being played or frustration over not getting the ball I don't know.

Am I only the only one that felt like Hill was being allowed to play defense extremely aggressively? I felt like that was the difference last night. Kind of like what happens when you play Utah at their place.

Carlisle certainly agrees with you: http://espn.go.com/dallas/radio/archive?id=4503349

He took some of the blame itself but his overriding point seemed to be that Hill got away with quite a bit and it was on Dirk's teammates to step up and take some of the pressure off.

I still feel that there are ways to counter that and Rick talked about one of them, having Dirk set screens on the ball.

BGMaverick9 · 01-29-2010, 10:19 PM

Random thought:

This has nothing to do with the point, but it brings up easy offense.
You can't do it all the time but it can be used to help get an easy basket or get teams in foul trouble. It seems like this team doesn't use back screens/lob passes at the rim enough, especially with a gifted passer like Kidd and an unselfish passer like Dirk. Set back screens and attack the basket, plain and simple. If you do this with Damp, it's easily 3-5 easy baskets for him.

Dtownsfinest · 01-29-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Charles Barlkey was right on last night about Dirk (and DHoward). I hate to admit it.

Our star just can not be pushed around and dominated by Grant Hill. Regardless of what he was getting away with. You can't be the victim continuously like that.

That would be the cherry on top to make a move if I was still on the fence about it. We have seen this all to often, no one can help Dirk on nights like this. Jet said something like "it's amazing how we are half way thru the season and still can't find our way in the 4th qrtr" or something very close to that. Well, stop panicing when Dirk doesn't come thru every single posession and carry the load a bit.

Yea I heard that Charles Barkley point and it was on point. Barkley knows what he's talking about when it comes to getting position on his player in the mid range area because that was his game. He was dominant at doing that. I think JET gave Drexler credit for being dominant at that but Charles Barkley was just as good if not better. Webber joked the reason why he could do that was because he had a big butt lol. But in all seriousness I don't understand why Dwight and Dirk let guys do that. Especially Dwight. He could be putting up 30 a game if he wouldn't let guys take advantage of him in the mid range area and prevent him from getting the basketball. That's inexcusable being as long and tall as Dwight is.

xrobx · 01-29-2010, 10:55 PM

when we play the suns and we give the ball to dirk, this happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ZNoeCTP-4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PuwNVd_q54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vy0kI4SMvo

when we don't give it to dirk, last night happens. it's really a simple concept. it's like that "pass it to will" episode of fresh prince of bel air where instead of passing it to will carlton decides to fling up a shot himself and they lose. except for will is dirk and carlton is the rest of the team, namely jj.

CadBane · 01-29-2010, 11:18 PM

Dirk didn't "let" Hill do anything. Hill was fouling Dirk, and we stopped giving him the ball. It's really that simple. When else this year have you seen Dirk constantly not getting position for the ball?

I guess it was just the vaunted defense of Grant Hill, that we'd never before seen. Right. Ok.

dude1394 · 01-30-2010, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Yea I heard that Charles Barkley point and it was on point. Barkley knows what he's talking about when it comes to getting position on his player in the mid range area because that was his game. He was dominant at doing that.

Because he was a fat-ass. It's hard to move a fat-ass out of the way. Some think that dirk can hold his ground just because he wants to, he's just not built that way imo. Not saying he shouldn't try harder but comparing barkley, aguirre, dantley (those with fat assess) to dirk is just not comparing the same things.

Bayliss · 01-30-2010, 11:12 AM

And the rules are different now too. In Barkley's day.. he could get the ball at/near the 3 point line, then with his fat@ss he could just continually back the defender down. Barkley could also hold the ball for whatever length of time he wanted to in order to "assume the position" with his f@t@ss. And also throw in the fact that defenders could not play a "semi" zone against Barkley like that can with Dirk. Defenders couldn't "shade" to Barkley in the post even before he got the ball.

Dirk doesn't have that luxury.

SMC0007 · 01-30-2010, 11:51 AM

He's Dirk so I'm sure he will bounce back tonight and I look forward to this. But that said, I know a turd when I see one and I saw one in the 4th quarter of the Phoenix game.

dude1394 · 01-30-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

And the rules are different now too. In Barkley's day.. he could get the ball at/near the 3 point line, then with his fat@ss he could just continually back the defender down. Barkley could also hold the ball for whatever length of time he wanted to in order to "assume the position" with his f@t@ss. And also throw in the fact that defenders could not play a "semi" zone against Barkley like that can with Dirk. Defenders couldn't "shade" to Barkley in the post even before he got the ball.

Dirk doesn't have that luxury.

Agreed...I quit watching the NBA for about 10 years or so when that was going on. It's still the most egregious of the pet peeves I have about the NBA. How anyone can bump into a defender and dislodge them is just unbelievable to me. I've watched DAMPIER be literally picked up and moved by an offensive player and then damp gets the foul when the offensive guy turns around to shoot because he's backed dampier 10 feet until they are under the basket.

And some people gripe about flopping?

mavErika · 01-30-2010, 12:38 PM

Wow, Dirk really didn't even touch the ball from the 5:53 mark until the the end! I couldn't watch the end of the game, so I'm glad Arnovitz made this piece. He doesn't have an definite answer why that was the case, but the fact alone is really disturbing.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...llas-mavericks

d.rix · 01-30-2010, 12:42 PM

man I was so pissed watching this. every single possession they almost went AWAY from Dirk an made no attempt to let the offense go through the former NBA MVP ! what the hell is RC doing, someone tell me please. I like RC defensive coaching ability but im not a fan of him running the show, sorry RC

dirno2000 · 01-30-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

And the rules are different now too. In Barkley's day.. he could get the ball at/near the 3 point line, then with his fat@ss he could just continually back the defender down. Barkley could also hold the ball for whatever length of time he wanted to in order to "assume the position" with his f@t@ss. And also throw in the fact that defenders could not play a "semi" zone against Barkley like that can with Dirk. Defenders couldn't "shade" to Barkley in the post even before he got the ball.

Dirk doesn't have that luxury.

Dirk also doesn't have to deal with legal hand checks on the perimeter and players manipulating him with two hands in the low post. It all evens out and great players adjust to whatever the rules are.

Bayliss · 01-30-2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Dirk also doesn't have to deal with legal hand checks on the perimeter and players manipulating him with two hands in the low post. It all evens out and great players adjust to whatever the rules are.

The two hands on the perimeter did not effect Barkley much at all considering he rarely stayed outside 20 feet..... the two hands in the back (IMO) is negated a bunch because he could hold the ball as long as he wanted.... The two hands in the back wasn't going to prevent Barkley from "backing down" his man with the ball.

For guys like Barkley that is why the whole "pull the chair out from under them" was invented. Defenders got tired of Barkley (and others) just "butt bumping" them all the way to the hoop while still having the ball.

Two hands never prevented the defender from stopping that move.

SMC0007 · 01-30-2010, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

The two hands on the perimeter did not effect Barkley much at all considering he rarely stayed outside 20 feet..... the two hands in the back (IMO) is negated a bunch because he could hold the ball as long as he wanted.... The two hands in the back wasn't going to prevent Barkley from "backing down" his man with the ball.

For guys like Barkley that is why the whole "pull the chair out from under them" was invented. Defenders got tired of Barkley (and others) just "butt bumping" them all the way to the hoop while still having the ball.

Two hands never prevented the defender from stopping that move.

Barkley didn't just play back to the basket post up ball. Your making him out to be Robert Tractor Traylor with the fat talk too. He was very very much in shape in his day and he would take it to the hole and finish as well as anyone in the league ever has, from anywhere on the court!

It's not about what Dirk can't do that Chuck could, it's about what any player in Dirks situation should do. Especially when he outweighs the defender, get to the damn spot you want and pin him down and shield him away from the entry pass. As a few others have said he didn't look too interested in the last 6 ish minutes for some reason. The rules don't seem to keep most of the solid big men in todays game from getting their position and keeping it etc. It works on a nightly basis.

Bayliss · 01-30-2010, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Barkley didn't just play back to the basket post up ball. Your making him out to be Robert Tractor Traylor with the fat talk too. He was very very much in shape in his day and he would take it to the hole and finish as well as anyone in the league ever has, from anywhere on the court!

Sure he didn't just post up, but he rarely shot 3s. And he rarely shot jumpers. He was a terrific finisher, and rebounder.

Jumpers is Dirk's bread and butter. In fact Hollinger did a study on it and Dirk shattered the record for most mid range jumpers made last year. He routinely operates out of the elbow/mid post.

Expecting him (in his 11th? season) to all of a sudden go against his nature is asking a little much. Throw in the fact that his body isn't capable (IMO) of pushing guys off the block, then it makes it even harder.