Reeds, the new guy, and other nowitzki-freaks…

[Big Boy Laroux]

your definiton may be different than mine, murph, but finley is not just a "fine" player. He is a great player. a star, but not a superstar.

Amazingly, I agree with reeds when he said: "I put Finley in the group of "stars" like: Ray Allen, Glen Robinson, Stephan Marbary, Jerry Stackhouse, Latrell Sprewell, Rasheed Wallace."

great comparison. he did spell some names wrong, but who am i to correct him? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

and to me, kobe is not a superstar. put him on a team without shaq. then we'll see what he can do.

[Murphy3]

a fine player, borderline great, but not a superstar.
hmm, for some reason, i can't see why anyone would be upset with that statement.
borderline great implies that he's probably star, doesn't it?
well, read more than one word in a post before you start arguing.
thanks

[Murphy3]

if we're going to say that because finley carried the team at times, he's a superstar. well, the mavs will have about 4 or 5 superstars on the team by that definition.

and thekid, how can you say finley stepped back and let dirk and nash emerge?
his shots per game were only down 1.
and guess what, shooting less isn't going to cause everything to go down basically.
his
free throw%
three point%
rebounding
and assists
all of these were signifcantly down.
now, if he stepped back and let the other player emerge, he would be getting more assists and more rebounds because he would be focused less on scoring. well, this is, at least, logical using your method of thinking.

these numbers are numbers that go down because you do something worse than you did it the previous year. these numbers are not down because finley stepped back, they're down because he shot worse, because he didn't rebound as well, and because he didn't pass as well as last year..

now, after saying all of that, i think finley had a good year. he's definitely a good/great player, but not a superstar

[Big Boy Laroux]

dude, you ARE an ass.

that's why i prefaced my statement with "your definiton may be different than mine."

i'm not upset with your statement. Finley is in the second-tier of nba players (the first-tier including duncan and shaq, etc.).

[TheKid]

For starters, you don't think he's a superstar I do. You say he didn't step back and let others emerge, OK. This year Fin ranked 19th in the NBA in shots taken per 48 minutes. (Dirk finished 15th by the way) Do you know where he finished last year??? 7th! That's not looking at field goal percentage, that's not looking at points per game, that's looking at SOLELY attempts. FGA per game this year was 19. Last year it was 20 per game. Per 48 minutes this year it was 21.64. Per 48 minutes last year it was 24.26. So you're trying to tell me he didn't take a reduced role. OBVIOUSLY his assists would have declined this year with the emergence of Nash, so that shouldn't matter. Also playing predominantly two guard this year as opposed to playing some forward position, his rebounds would go down. So to say he didn't take a reduced role is just ridiculous, anyone could see that, which you can too, you just choose not to acknowledge it.

Also don't tell me other players have carried this team for stretches of the year. There is an argument for ONE other player on this team and that's Dirk. I'm not talking about invidual games, I'm talking about for extended periods of time. For instance the last month of the year, when everyone else was struggling, during our brutal road trip.

Like I said, you call it what you want and I call it what I want.

[Murphy3]

he shot less because he was shooting much worse for the majority of the year

[TheKid]

He shot worse from the free throw line, and he shot worse from three point range, which he actually took more of. He shot exactly the same from the field overall. 45.7% in 99-00 and 45.8% in 00-01. So if you're theory is he shot worse for the majority of the season, when it was all said and done, he shot the same percentage from a prior year. Lower three point percentage and lower free throw percentage is what reduced his average. What's funny is, if he shoots 40% from three point range and 80% from the free throw line like he did the year before, he leads this team in scoring AGAIN.

[Murphy3]

no shit, he took more shots than anyone else.
of course if he would have hit 40% of his threes and over 80% of his free throws he would have led the team in scoring.
so, what's your point?
he didn't.

that's exactly my point, his three point shooting was significantly worse and his free throw percentage was significantly worse as well.
neither his free throw percentage or his three point percentage were especially good when compared to the top 2 guards in the nba.

this isn't a knock against finley, just a knock against your reasoning

[reeds]

Kid- Im being honest. I stopped reading after the line where you said "KOBE is no superstar"? Did I read that correctly? Tell me I was seeing things? He is probably the most complete player in basketball right now. What cant he do? He is quick as lightning, he can shoot, no one can take it to the hole like he can. He has no weakness except maybe the fact that he doesnt trust his teammates. In fact, is he were on a worse team, I feel just the opposite as you- his numbers would be better. He would win scoring title after scoring title. You cant judge what Kobe did without Shaq after four games- in my opinion. You put him on the Mavs right now and see what he does for a year! He lights the joint up....

Sure Finley has taken over games. But.. ive seen some awful players take over games on occasion. Randy Brewer..lol. Any old buck fans might remember him.

[TheKid]

Well Murph, Fin DOES compare to some of the BETTER two guards in the league. Some of the ones YOU think are better!!!! Also, because his three point shooting declined and free throw declined means he had a worse season???? Means that he did not reduce his role so that others could flourish???? That means his statistics declined. If you want to talk about superstar, let's look how he elevated those two statistics when it counted. He shot over 80% for the playoffs from the free throw line. Over 40% from three point range through the first series of the playoffs. The only thing that happened, they ran into a better team and he ran out of gas, which is understandable considering he played almost 44 minutes a game in the first series and over 40 through the second. Everyone on the team just ran out of gas. So if that means he's an "average" player, then so be it, but in my eyes, next year we will have TWO SUPERSTARS on our team. Don't care if no one agrees with me.

[giostar]

I think you all lost me way back at Iverson and Vince Carter not being superstars. If they aren't I'm not sure who is. Kobe is a Superstar. Hell.. the guy has more promotions than anyone in the league... obviously execs wouldn't pay that much to have a regular jo-blo in their commercials. I do beleive that there are Stars and there are Superstars... A superstar is someone that you go to a game to watch... Actually someone in another city goes to that game to watch. I go to the LA games to see Kobe and Shaq or the toronto games to see Vince. A superstar is someone that can steal the spotlight... someone you want to watch even if doesnt have the ball or is even on the sidelines. A superstar is someone that can take a game over and dominate it, like Iverson does, or Vince does. Hell... I don't even think that Grant Hill is a superstar. But thats just my opinion.

[Big Boy Laroux]

so being a superstar means having endorsements? hell, get fin in a few more commericials, and people come to see games just for him.

Vince is a high flyer, yes, but in my eyes, he hasn't done anything (he's made great strides this year). Iverson can score, but to me, he's just not DOMINANT (too many 8-33 nights). but after this year, i'd be willing to call him a superstar. i'll retract my prior statement.

again. we have no superstars. not many teams have them. but we are lucky to have great stars on our team.

[Murphy3]

kid, you make so many excuses for finley's play when there's no reason to do that.
his numbers, almost everything from assists to rebounds, to scoring, to three point percentage to free throw percentage were all down this year.
he wasn't as good of a player this year as he was last year, that's it. nothing more, but he was still a very good player this year...just a bit down from last.
if you let others emerge, that doesn't drop your rebounding and assists, or your shooting percentages.

[TheKid]

Giostar, that was what I was originally saying. People equate superstars to publicity they receive. Personally I don't agree with that, but I think that's what we define superstars as.

[MavsFanFinley]

Publicity defintely plays a factor in how we define superstars in this league. If Carter wasn't a out-of-this world dunker like he is, would he receive as much publicity? I don't think so.

[TheKid]

Exactly my point, in that case would he be considered a superstar if he didn't get the publicity.

[Murphy3]

by whatever definition you want to use, finley's not a superstar.
that's probably the easiest way to end this conversation

[TheKid]

As I said, MAVS FINLEY (who the question was directed to) if Vince Carter didn't have many endorsements would you consider him a SUPERSTAR???!!!

[Murphy3]

the guy has great numbers.
very easily could put him in as a superstar. let's give him one more year though