Preseason GDT: Mavs at Magic

[BGMaverick9]

Stein just got confirmation that Novak and Cardinal WILL make the 15 man roster.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by mac222b

we need to see what we've got in Roddy first before we hit the panic button. if he can provide consistent penetration and three point shooting then that makes everyone else alot better: more open looks, more free throws, better spacing. if Caron and/or Jet are knocked down the totem pole to options 3a & 3b we'll all feel alot better about things.

so if Roddy can be a Montae Ellis type for us(with better passing and defense)things could get interesting. Roddy is potentially exactly what we need, especially if he can fulfill his defensive potential anytime soon.

i think Caron is gone at the deadline. im sure everyone by now knows he's not a fit and has slipped a little. interested to see what we can get for him(and possibly Chandler/Dojo/Deshawn). again, we wont be the only team with expiring contracts but few teams have 2 quality players expiring to offer as well as young talent.

Agreed, first 2 weeks won't determine how far we go in June. I think finding out what we got in Roddy come Feb is huge though.

With the late word on Novak and Cardinal pushing our roster to the limit, it gives us flexibility to add and subtract bodies without worrying about their contracts.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Meh, it's preseason....BUT Haywood was terrible. Maybe he's saving it all for the regular season, but I'm not seeing a big talent gap between him and Chandler.

I don't know if it's just me, but Haywood looks as if he isn't trying at all. Like he doesn't give a sh!t..... as if "Hurry up lets get this game over with."

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Rick41

I don't know if it's just me, but Haywood looks as if he isn't trying at all. Like he doesn't give a sh!t..... as if "Hurry up lets get this game over with."

He is filling in perfectly for Damp, then.

[b_o_r]

When/If Roddy comes back, it probably will be couple of months before he is even effective. In the month of April, he played a whopping 53 minutes and in July he played no more than 140 minutes. He has played less than 200 meaningful minutes of basketball in 6 months. For him to come in an be an instant spark after 4 months of inactivity a little too much to ask.

My second concern is the preseason starting rotation. The fact that is was a different lineup every game leads me to believe that the starting lineup will be Kidd, Butler, Marion, Dirk, Haywood.

[fluid.forty.one]

The Mavs are 3-4.

You know who else is 3-4? The Lakers. The Heat.


F the pre-season.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Clearly, the game was not out of reach, because it was even at the half. Care to explain that one?
I can't tell if you're being serious, but no, these starters won't start. We have Kidd and Marion (off the bench), who both sat, and we have Roddy. So why do we have to look at this game and say that it is a direct implication on our regular season play?

Yes it was even at the half but it was the bench that brought it back after the starters put us way behind. During the second half it was those same starters that got us way behind again long before the reserves got back in. By then even RC realized this starting line up wasn't going to do anything. Which is why he pulled Dirk who wasn't even involve in the offense and totally out of sync. He was just playing the role of a journyman player by then.
As I said in my post it wasn't that they lost but how they lost. With a line up that should have never been in in the first place. I refer to the coaching. You don't put in three shoot first ego driven players with no playmakers in the line up at the same time. Not only that but they played keep away from Dirk ( especially DJ) who could create shots for others of the double teams if they would get him the ball in the right spots. When ever he did get the ball it was not in those spots and they did not move with out the ball to give him somewhere to go with it to make the double team pay. 2 for 6 tells a story. He did not get the ball in his usual spots. If you are not going to utilize him in the offense than sit him with Kidd.

When he brought in JJB the teams offense was much more effective. I think it is pretty bad if the only player we have to stimulate the offense has to be JJB. The team could function with one perhaps sometimes two of those players ( DJ,CB and Terry) in the line up at the same time but never all three. They are what they are and my frustration is less with them than RC who put them in and left them in together for that length of time taking much too long to realize the obvious. When he finally realized this he did sub Cardinal. It always seem to take RC an eternity to make adjustments. His handling of the line up I feel is just a portent of the stupidity that we can look forward to for this coming season.

I am not that worried about Haywoods play. He has always done well against Howard. In this game he was just trying to help the perimiter defenders too much.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The Mavs are 3-4.

You know who else is 3-4? The Lakers. The Heat.


F the pre-season.

This x10000.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Rick41

This x10000.

this -10001

[iella]

Originally Posted by Rick41

This x10000.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

this -10001

Assuming that the value of "this" exceeds 1.0001, mathematically, Rick41 still wins.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by iella

Assuming that the value of "this" exceeds 1.0001, mathematically, Rick41 still wins.

1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hWZM8UicVI

2)why assume that, it's preposterous

3)fell your

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

Yes it was even at the half but it was the bench that brought it back after the starters put us way behind. During the second half it was those same starters that got us way behind again long before the reserves got back in. By then even RC realized this starting line up wasn't going to do anything. Which is why he pulled Dirk who wasn't even involve in the offense and totally out of sync. He was just playing the role of a journyman player by then.
As I said in my post it wasn't that they lost but how they lost. With a line up that should have never been in in the first place. I refer to the coaching. You don't put in three shoot first ego driven players with no playmakers in the line up at the same time. Not only that but they played keep away from Dirk ( especially DJ) who could create shots for others of the double teams if they would get him the ball in the right spots. When ever he did get the ball it was not in those spots and they did not move with out the ball to give him somewhere to go with it to make the double team pay. 2 for 6 tells a story. He did not get the ball in his usual spots. If you are not going to utilize him in the offense than sit him with Kidd.

When he brought in JJB the teams offense was much more effective. I think it is pretty bad if the only player we have to stimulate the offense has to be JJB. The team could function with one perhaps sometimes two of those players ( DJ,CB and Terry) in the line up at the same time but never all three. They are what they are and my frustration is less with them than RC who put them in and left them in together for that length of time taking much too long to realize the obvious. When he finally realized this he did sub Cardinal. It always seem to take RC an eternity to make adjustments. His handling of the line up I feel is just a portent of the stupidity that we can look forward to for this coming season.

I am not that worried about Haywoods play. He has always done well against Howard. In this game he was just trying to help the perimiter defenders too much.

Look, I get that it was an ugly loss. Our starters didn't look that great, Dirk wasn't involved. That's a fact. What I don't get is how that fact means that the Mavericks aren't going to play well in the regular season. As you said, we didn't have Kidd. Not having you're starting point guard makes a big difference. Besides, it was a single game. One. I guarentee you that we will have games this season where our starters play poorly and our bench brings us back. It happens. There's a reason we play 82 games, not 1. Its because one game is not indicitive of how good a team is.

I also cannot understand, at all, why you could possibly be mad at RC for PRESEASON substitution. You have no clue what's going through his head. There's a more than decent possibility that he did it on purpose, to see whether Jones and Terry could handle the two guard spots with Butler on the wing. Well, I think he got his answer. But in preseason, there's nothing wrong with trying that out. This wasn't the dress rehearsal; this game was nothing like how we will play in the regular season. It was just a preseason game where Carlisle was trying to evaluate the talent on his team.

We talking about preseason! Not a game, not a game...preseason!

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

When/If Roddy comes back, it probably will be couple of months before he is even effective. In the month of April, he played a whopping 53 minutes and in July he played no more than 140 minutes. He has played less than 200 meaningful minutes of basketball in 6 months. For him to come in an be an instant spark after 4 months of inactivity a little too much to ask.

My second concern is the preseason starting rotation. The fact that is was a different lineup every game leads me to believe that the starting lineup will be Kidd, Butler, Marion, Dirk, Haywood.

You're forgetting Summer League.

[SMC0007]

Drop the antlers on e, drop the claw on em

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by tcat075

----------I also cannot understand, at all, why you could possibly be mad at RC for PRESEASON substitution. You have no clue what's going through his head. There's a more than decent possibility that he did it on purpose, to see whether Jones and Terry could handle the two guard spots with Butler on the wing. Well, I think he got his answer. But in preseason, there's nothing wrong with trying that out. This wasn't the dress rehearsal; this game was nothing like how we will play in the regular season. It was just a preseason game where Carlisle was trying to evaluate the talent on his team.

We talking about preseason! Not a game, not a game...preseason!

I agree with all your points. But if you read my post carefully it would have answered the question that you pose. Yes RC was trying to evaluate the talent on his team. The problem is that it takes him to long to do so this is why he has problems with in game adjustments. He also can't see the obvious.

Example he might have started the four centers along with Dirk. 5 seven footers to see if they could play together. No reasonable person would expect that to work would they? An extreme example but one to prove a point. You don't have to experament with 5 centers to recognize that it won't work. Ok he might have to try the Terry,CB,DJ line up but it took him entirely too long to recognize the result before he made changes. A good coach who knew his players would never have had to spend that much time and effort to recognize it.

A good chess player is able to see multi move's ahead. A good rb see's the openings on the field before they happen. A good point guard see's the play and potential defensive reactions before they happen. A good coach should also have the ability to recognize things before the are obvious to everyone else. Our coach not only doesn't he have such foresight but tends to see way things after it becomes obvious to many other people. He is a slow study. That doesn't make him stupid or incompetent in all aspects of coaching or basketball knowledge. His ability to evaluate players in respect to in game conditions is what he doesn't posses. Those of you who don't recognize this are either nieve or behind the curve in that aspect yourselves.

RC should be an assistant coach he doesn't have the mental quickness required to positively impact a team enough make a difference at this level. As I stated on another site last year. If he had a standard team and a set rotation he could function but when there are fluxtuating situatonal decisions to be made he he is over his head. Because of Cubans negative experience with Nelson he went out and hired his opposite.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by tcat075

You're forgetting Summer League.

The 140 minutes in July was the Summer league

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I agree with all your points. But if you read my post carefully it would have answered the question that you pose. Yes RC was trying to evaluate the talent on his team. The problem is that it takes him to long to do so this is why he has problems with in game adjustments. He also can't see the obvious.

Example he might have started the four centers along with Dirk. 5 seven footers to see if they could play together. No reasonable person would expect that to work would they? An extreme example but one to prove a point. You don't have to experament with 5 centers to recognize that it won't work. Ok he might have to try the Terry,CB,DJ line up but it took him entirely too long to recognize the result before he made changes. A good coach who knew his players would never have had to spend that much time and effort to recognize it.

A good chess player is able to see multi move's ahead. A good rb see's the openings on the field before they happen. A good point guard see's the play and potential defensive reactions before they happen. A good coach should also have the ability to recognize things before the are obvious to everyone else. Our coach not only doesn't he have such foresight but tends to see way things after it becomes obvious to many other people. He is a slow study. That doesn't make him stupid or incompetent in all aspects of coaching or basketball knowledge. His ability to evaluate players in respect to in game conditions is what he doesn't posses. Those of you who don't recognize this are either nieve or behind the curve in that aspect yourselves.

RC should be an assistant coach he doesn't have the mental quickness required to positively impact a team enough make a difference at this level. As I stated on another site last year. If he had a standard team and a set rotation he could function but when there are fluxtuating situatonal decisions to be made he he is over his head. Because of Cubans negative experience with Nelson he went out and hired his opposite.

I understand what you mean; I really do. If we were debating a Kidd/Butler/Terry lineup, I might agree with you. However, since the lineup has Jones in it, I have to agree with this specific one. He's still a relative unknown, is playing way better lately than he had been, and he has some passing ability, so it would make since that he might be able to initiate some passing with Terry and Butler.

I also think you are quite harsh on Carlisle, but I'll agree that he's not the best in game manager in the game.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

The 140 minutes in July was the Summer league

Oh, yeah. Duh.

I think he'll be fine, though. Sure, he'll have to get back up to game speed, but with his athleticism I think it will be a few weeks, tops, before he's playing as well as he can be.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by tcat075

I understand what you mean; I really do. If we were debating a Kidd/Butler/Terry lineup, I might agree with you. However, since the lineup has Jones in it, I have to agree with this specific one. He's still a relative unknown, is playing way better lately than he had been, and he has some passing ability, so it would make since that he might be able to initiate some passing with Terry and Butler.

I also think you are quite harsh on Carlisle, but I'll agree that he's not the best in game manager in the game.

I probably am too harsh on RC. I would just rather they had hired another coach that would be an asset instead of a libility during games.

As for Jones being a rookie it is important to his development who he has around him. Who are his mentors. This season can set the pattern for his entire career. I get the feeling that he is a little too full of himself already. Players like Terry and Butler would only help to reinforce that negative.

When you play ball you pass to people that are open and don't go out of your way to establish a keep away additude. Especially from the most consistant player on your team. When you are a rookie and you go out of your way to freeze out the best and most consistant player on your team you need an additude adjustment.

What concerns me is why he often chose to do this in the two games that I have watched. It was not so much Terry or Butler who did so but him. Terry and Butler generally see themselves as scorers anyway. DJ was not being a ball hog but instead chose to not pass to the open man ( Dirk ) but looked for another option. He may feel more comfortable style wise with Terry or Butler but the point is that he needs to learn to adjust his game to Dirk and others also. He needs to remember he is a rookie. If this is going to develop into pattern during the regular season than there will be trouble in River City.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I probably am too harsh on RC. I would just rather they had hired another coach that would be an asset instead of a libility during games.

As for Jones being a rookie it is important to his development who he has around him. Who are his mentors. This season can set the pattern for his entire career. I get the feeling that he is a little too full of himself already. Players like Terry and Butler would only help to reinforce that negative.

When you play ball you pass to people that are open and don't go out of your way to establish a keep away additude. Especially from the most consistant player on your team. When you are a rookie and you go out of your way to freeze out the best and most consistant player on your team you need an additude adjustment.

What concerns me is why he often chose to do this in the two games that I have watched. It was not so much Terry or Butler who did so but him. Terry and Butler generally see themselves as scorers anyway. DJ was not being a ball hog but instead chose to not pass to the open man ( Dirk ) but looked for another option. He may feel more comfortable style wise with Terry or Butler but the point is that he needs to learn to adjust his game to Dirk and others also. He needs to remember he is a rookie. If this is going to develop into pattern during the regular season than there will be trouble in River City.

I don't see this. He may not make the best play every single time, but if you think DJ isn't passing the ball to Dirk on purpose you're nuts. He has passed the ball to him plenty so far. DJ is just trying to pass to the open man period and it hasn't mattered who it was.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I don't see this. He may not make the best play every single time, but if you think DJ isn't passing the ball to Dirk on purpose you're nuts. He has passed the ball to him plenty so far. DJ is just trying to pass to the open man period and it hasn't mattered who it was.

Absolutely. Just because a player looks open on TV, doesn't mean it looks that way to a player on the court. There's little decisions. Maybe Jones saw a matchup elsewhere, or maybe he thought he could beat his man, maybe the play dictated a different pass. To see Jones not pass to Dirk a couple times, and then to assume he's intentionally freezing him out? That's quite a jump there.

[wilmtalk]

I can understand why you might think that it is quite a jump. But I saw what I saw. None of the conditions that you mention were applicable. Taken in context with history and the present personalitys involved it is not really an improbable dynamic.

I hope I am wrong that a problem that the team had a few years back is not again resurfacing with new players.

I wrote a four paragraph explaination which disappeared when a wrong key was hit. I will do us all a favor and not re-write it.

Well any way this is a good reason for having Kidd on the team. He doesn't have the baggage that has been put on Dirk so he should be able to correct it.

[wilmtalk]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I don't see this. He may not make the best play every single time, but if you think DJ isn't passing the ball to Dirk on purpose you're nuts. He has passed the ball to him plenty so far. DJ is just trying to pass to the open man period and it hasn't mattered who it was.

i saw him look at him see that he was open then look for another player to pass to. It was not about a choice of options only of not choosing the Dirk option. After he didn't pass to Dirk he paused until he found another option. I saw what I saw.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. You don't know the plays I was refering to so how can you say I didn't see what I saw. You might question my interpretation of what I say in the larger sense. But I can say he chose to not pass him the ball when he had no other play in mind. One of the incidents I was refering to was also brought up by another poster. I put it in a broader context because I saw it repeated.

Time will tell if this was worth while commenting on or thus a valid observation. I have stated before that I hope I am wrong. This means that I consider it possible that I am. Not that I didn't see what I saw but my relating it to a larger pattern which is purely speculative.

You say because I stated an observation, that you did not percieve, that this should qualify me to be nuts. Well contrare. An egocenticist who claims that what they can not see could not possibly exist qualifys themself far more for such a label.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

i saw him look at him see that he was open then look for another player to pass to. It was not about a choice of options only of not choosing the Dirk option. After he didn't pass to Dirk he paused until he found another option. I saw what I saw.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. You don't know the plays I was refering to so how can you say I didn't see what I saw. You might question my interpretation of what I say in the larger sense. But I can say he chose to not pass him the ball when he had no other play in mind. One of the incidents I was refering to was also brought up by another poster. I put it in a broader context because I saw it repeated.

Time will tell if this was worth while commenting on or thus a valid observation. I have stated before that I hope I am wrong. This means that I consider it possible that I am. Not that I didn't see what I saw but my relating it to a larger pattern which is purely speculative.

You say because I stated an observation, that you did not percieve, that this should qualify me to be nuts. Well contrare. An egocenticist who claims that what they can not see could not possibly exist qualifys themself far more for such a label.

You didn't just comment or state an observation. You said "When you are a rookie and you go out of your way to freeze out the best and most consistant player on your team you need an additude adjustment." Thats more than an observation to me when you are claiming he is doing something like that on purpose.
I watched the entire game...all of the games he has played in fact. I'm pretty sure most of us get the same angles you do when watching these games. I saw an instance where he didn't pass the ball to Dirk when it appeared he was open, it happens. Is he purposely freezing out our best player? NO Why would he do that? Anyway, I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about this. He is a rookie, let him make some mistakes and learn. He's not out with a personal vendetta to keep the ball away from the teams star player. You think he just doesn't want any playing time?

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

I can understand why you might think that it is quite a jump. But I saw what I saw. None of the conditions that you mention were applicable. Taken in context with history and the present personalitys involved it is not really an improbable dynamic.

I hope I am wrong that a problem that the team had a few years back is not again resurfacing with new players.

I wrote a four paragraph explaination which disappeared when a wrong key was hit. I will do us all a favor and not re-write it.

Well any way this is a good reason for having Kidd on the team. He doesn't have the baggage that has been put on Dirk so he should be able to correct it.

This is obviously not true, because the conditions I mentioned were specifically mentioned because they cannot be known. Alright, maybe Dirk's wide open, and maybe there was no way that he could have thought he wasn't. I'll concede that. However, you can't know if the gameplan was to keep Dirk's shot down, since it was only a preseason game. You can't know whether the play that was called dictated a different approach. You can't know if the plan was to get a switch, or maybe to find the opponent's small forward and attack him, who Jones thought was on Dirk, but wasn't, so he turned to find the mismatch somewhere else.

The point I'm trying to make is that the gameplan is not always as simple as "pass the ball to Dirk, let him score". We all know that. Jones could easily have been following a gameplan, and for all we know, been applauded by the coaches when he got back to the benches. That's the thing. We don't know. We really don't.

I mean, maybe Jones just doesn't feel comfortable passing to a post. If that's the case, he's obviously going to learn. I doubt he had any Dirk's at South Florida, for what its worth.

Here's the bottom line, though. The coaches will realize if Jones is freezing Dirk out, and if he keeps doing, he'll be warming the bench. I mean, for all we know, that might happen anyway, with Carlisle's stance on rookies. So even if this is happening, which seems unlikely to me (but you seem pretty adamant on it, so clearly I think you saw something, even if you're interpreting it wrong), it will get fixed. There's no way the coaches will let a player on the court he doesn't pass to the best player when he's supposed to.

I do agree on one thing: I absolutely hate it when my long-ass posts get deleted because somehow I accidently push the shortcut for back on my internet browser or whatever and it loses it all.