03-16-2011, 12:00 AM
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#1
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
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This team was considerably better with Butler.
There was a lot of concern around here early in the year about Butler shooting poorly and turning the ball over. Rightly so. Then, those things improved, and everything was gravy.
I think this team needs him. I don't know if it's "the-whole-is-greater-than-its-parts" phenomenon, or what, but this team was sick good the first couple months of the season with Butler. Since then, they've only been good. Not anything to cry about, to be sure, but not the dominating force we saw early. Remember that amazing win in OKC when Dirk went down? That was with Butler. Have the Mavs done anything so downright impressive since then? I don't think so. Not even that win over LA at home to end the losing streak, if you ask me. Nor the win at Boston (although that was certainly fantastic).
The biggest dip, obviously, has been in team defense. I don't think anybody ever regarded Butler as some lock-down defender, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he was a key cog to the way the team defense operated, for whatever reason. It has been somewhere from mediocre to downright bad pretty much ever since he went out.
I don't know if he'll be ready. Probably not. But we need him. I really believe that.
Get well soon, CB4.
__________________
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03-16-2011, 12:04 AM
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#2
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,074
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I think it's also important in that Caron keeps people at their natural positions. Without Caron, we have no SF off the bench (since RC hates Brewer, for whatever reason). Also, Caron adds an offensive option down the stretch, which is crucial.
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03-16-2011, 12:06 AM
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#3
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Old School Balla
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,097
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They definitely miss Butler. He started because he was a two-way player, and he gave the Mavs all sorts of versatility that they simply don't have right now. Against the Lakers, you could start Butler instead of Beaubois and there would have been no need to put Kidd on Artest. Against most of the other teams in the West, Butler gave the Mavs an excellent three forward rotation and allowed them to play defense multiple ways. Right now, they are limited because his replacements in the rotation are either very limited offensively or defensively.
I don't think the Mavs solved the problem with Stojakovic or Brewer, but if either has a chance to fill the gap, it's Brewer.
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03-16-2011, 12:07 AM
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#4
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Moderator
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Yep, you definitely can't argue against our defense being better with Caron.
Although props to the Mavs for still being in the mix without one of our best players - if he hadn't gotten injured, we'd probably be sitting where the Spurs are right now...
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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03-16-2011, 12:09 AM
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#5
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Guru
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Posts: 11,806
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Talked about it last night on MOR, it'd be hella intriguing if Butler says he wants to give it a go if the Mavs make it to the second round.
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03-16-2011, 12:12 AM
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#6
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9
Talked about it last night on MOR, it'd be hella intriguing if Butler says he wants to give it a go if the Mavs make it to the second round.
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i'm not sure which would be more surprising... butler coming back to play in the second round, or the mavs actually making it to the second round. they both would be a pleasant surprise.
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03-16-2011, 12:16 AM
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#7
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Golden Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,209
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I miss Butler...I most people even myself took him for granted and now we see how important he was to the Mavs.
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03-16-2011, 12:29 AM
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#8
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Although props to the Mavs for still being in the mix without one of our best players - if he hadn't gotten injured, we'd probably be sitting where the Spurs are right now...
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This gets overlooked a lot now because he's been gone so long we almost forget about him (though not in a disrespectful way). But it's true. The Mavs lost arguably their second-best player and are still contending with the Lakers in the West standings. That's pretty amazing.
__________________
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"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
Last edited by LonghornDub; 03-16-2011 at 12:30 AM.
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03-16-2011, 12:30 AM
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#9
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,502
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Man, I miss that guy.
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03-16-2011, 12:34 AM
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#10
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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It was reported at the start of the month that he felt he was at the 50% range. At that time, he said he felt he was about two weeks away from being able to do some additional work on the court. I know he's been shooting on the court before games.
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03-16-2011, 12:59 AM
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#11
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 66
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They were even better when they had Roy Tarpley.
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03-16-2011, 02:04 AM
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#12
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 44
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The team was way better when we still had butler. he was the only player in the starting line up back then that actually attacked the basket and got some hard earned points.
Butler we miss you!!!!!
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03-16-2011, 03:35 AM
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#13
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 39
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yes, we were much better team with butler, no question. but i doubt he'll be available in the playoffs.
we should've traded for sjax imo. players like roddy, terry, barea won't get us anywhere.of all so called "contenders" we have by far the worst defensive backcourt in the entire nba. offensively we're as talented as anybody, but we're so damn small, no one will take us seriously come playoff-time. that's why we get pushed around and disappear once it gets physical. roddy is 165 pounds at most, that's not an nba body. i have to laugh everytime i see him in the starting lineup. we need a big and strong 2 guard who can penetrate to the basket if we want to content for a championship. and btw, rick carlisle is not a championhip-caliber coach. his wild rotations are killing this team. how should the team build any kind of chemistry? in the playoffs, you need a strong 7-player core, like the lakers have. look whos coming off the bench for them, steve blake, shannon brown matt barnes. look whos coming off the bench for the celtics: arroyo, murphy, green. those teams don't care about a deep bench because they know in the playoffs it's not about that. it's about physical play and the mavs are still a soft team, because of their midget backcourt.
think about it, seriously. take off the fan glasses. can you imagine a team winning the championship build the way the mavs are, especially in the backcourt? with roddy, terry and barea leading the way? the more i think about it, the more ridiculous it gets.
Last edited by MavsFanTillDeath; 03-16-2011 at 03:38 AM.
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03-16-2011, 07:20 AM
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#14
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Germany
Posts: 7,276
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The Mavs need him, let´s hope he is back as soon as possible!
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03-16-2011, 09:05 AM
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#15
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Butler was flat out awful for the first half of his season, and the Mavs were still really good despite his terrible play. So I have a hard to time chalking up a ton of the problems now to not having him. They certainly would be better with him healthy, but markedly so? I don't think so.
I think, more than anything, the league has caught up. The Mavs are a team filled with veteran players, most of whom had already played with each other. It's not uncommon for a team like that to get out of the gates fast and then lose steam as the season wears on.
It really says something about how this team is constructed that we can lose our second best SF, and someone who is probably not one of the four best players on this team, and it's looked at as a major blow. And it's because we're so hard up for true two-way players.
Last edited by jthig32; 03-16-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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03-16-2011, 09:07 AM
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#16
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Lazy Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
This gets overlooked a lot now because he's been gone so long we almost forget about him (though not in a disrespectful way). But it's true. The Mavs lost arguably their second-best player and are still contending with the Lakers in the West standings. That's pretty amazing.
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It's really not arguable at all. He's not even their best SF. They were relatively equal offensively, and Marion is obviously a better defender/rebounder.
Now, Caron was the only other player that could carry an offense when he was playing well, and the Mavs definitely miss that. But the package as a whole was nothing close to their second best player this season.
Last edited by jthig32; 03-16-2011 at 09:09 AM.
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03-16-2011, 09:21 AM
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#17
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Lazy Moderator
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Thinking about this a little further, I think another factor that we've missed is Stevenson turning into a non-factor at SG.
For the first two months of the season, we had a SF rotation with two quality players, neither of whom was a poor defender. And we had a starter at SG who was destroying the three point line and playing lock down defense.
Then in January we lost one half of our SF rotation. Then in February we lost that version of Stevenson and replaced him with overall mediocre offensive production and poor defensive production.
That's a bummer of a double-whammy.
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03-16-2011, 09:51 AM
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#18
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Old School Balla
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Thinking about this a little further, I think another factor that we've missed is Stevenson turning into a non-factor at SG.
For the first two months of the season, we had a SF rotation with two quality players, neither of whom was a poor defender. And we had a starter at SG who was destroying the three point line and playing lock down defense.
Then in January we lost one half of our SF rotation. Then in February we lost that version of Stevenson and replaced him with overall mediocre offensive production and poor defensive production.
That's a bummer of a double-whammy.
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Stevenson's departure as a contributor has been offset (IMO) by Beaubois' return. Butler's contributions, however, have not been replaced.
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03-16-2011, 09:57 AM
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#19
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Lazy Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg_veteran
Stevenson's departure as a contributor has been offset (IMO) by Beaubois' return. Butler's contributions, however, have not been replaced.
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The drop off from Stevenson to Roddy on the defensive end is pretty drastic.
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03-16-2011, 10:00 AM
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#20
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Old School Balla
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
The drop off from Stevenson to Roddy on the defensive end is pretty drastic.
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The drop from Roddy to Stevenson on the other end is much more drastic.
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03-16-2011, 10:14 AM
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#21
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Golden Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,472
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barea has sadly come down to earth and played pretty pathetic yesterday.
chandler looks tired out there. Wonder if he is not used playing this many games in a season after all the injuries he has had.
and again we are lacking a hustle player like we had in humphries and bass the last few seasons. all our guys mostly play position defense - they are neither physical nor aggressive enough. if we want a shot at going deep in the playoffs we need to a) crash the defensive board and b) be more aggressive on defense.
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03-16-2011, 10:16 AM
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#22
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Lazy Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg_veteran
The drop from Roddy to Stevenson on the other end is much more drastic.
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Not so far. Not even close.
Stevenson was scoring a very efficient 8 points a game (roughly) over the first three months of the season, and playing fantastic defense.
Roddy (so far) has been a downgrade from that production, when you consider all factors.
Last edited by jthig32; 03-16-2011 at 10:22 AM.
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03-16-2011, 10:24 AM
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#23
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,195
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I'm in the minority, but I think Butler's contributions are overrated. We were doing much better before his injury, but I think we were playing over our heads, and we'd have come back down anyway. On offense, he wasn't attacking as much as any of us wanted. We were doing well because he (along with Jet and Stevenson and Kidd anyone else who was shooting) was hitting his outside jumpers. He was adding some toughness on defense, but our defense was already settling back down to mediocre at best.
If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.
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03-16-2011, 10:34 AM
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#24
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Old School Balla
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin
I'm in the minority, but I think Butler's contributions are overrated. We were doing much better before his injury, but I think we were playing over our heads, and we'd have come back down anyway. On offense, he wasn't attacking as much as any of us wanted. We were doing well because he (along with Jet and Stevenson and Kidd anyone else who was shooting) was hitting his outside jumpers. He was adding some toughness on defense, but our defense was already settling back down to mediocre at best.
If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.
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The team has needed a 2nd star for a while now. That was true when Butler was healthy. The issue is whether Butler gave the team a better chance to win in the playoffs. I think the answer to that is clearly yes.
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03-16-2011, 10:35 AM
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#25
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin
If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.
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I don't think anybody claimed he was a true 2nd star, but he was definitely an important glue guy - especially because he played two ways. Plus, he was another #3-5 player who could step up to be a #2 from time-to-time, just like JET or Marion (which we could really use, seeing as how we don't have that 2nd star...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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03-16-2011, 10:40 AM
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#26
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: uranus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Butler was flat out awful for the first half of his season, and the Mavs were still really good despite his terrible play. So I have a hard to time chalking up a ton of the problems now to not having him. They certainly would be better with him healthy, but markedly so? I don't think so.
I think, more than anything, the league has caught up. The Mavs are a team filled with veteran players, most of whom had already played with each other. It's not uncommon for a team like that to get out of the gates fast and then lose steam as the season wears on.
It really says something about how this team is constructed that we can lose our second best SF, and someone who is probably not one of the four best players on this team, and it's looked at as a major blow. And it's because we're so hard up for true two-way players.
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Full on, double rainbow all the way across the sky. Obviously meaning I agree. But it should be a no brainer that not having Butler is a major problem right now. I don't follow how you can state the fact that we need two-way players so badly and in the same post suggest that Caron basically isn't that big (or markedly so) of an issue.
I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk. Our depth isn't as it was designed without him and that was one thing a lot of us thought would counter NOT having a legit or all-star type 2nd scorer/option. Now that we don't have that guy who can play and contribute above average on both ends while keeping a semi-conventional lineup it's going to be a lot tougher.
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03-16-2011, 10:54 AM
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#27
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC0007
I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk.
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I doubt Caron can be a difference-maker this season. If he comes back for the playoffs, he definitely won't be 100% - I don't think a 70% Tuff Juice puts us over the top (hell, he might even hurt us a la Jameer Nelson if he doesn't have time to get re-acclimated into our system...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
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03-16-2011, 10:56 AM
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#28
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,863
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I think Caron's been a great measuring stick in adding core players mid stream. We added Caron mid stream a year ago, the results weren't great, but with a full training camp, not just getting Caron into RC's system, but seeing that the core develops chemistry going forward, with Caron going down, now where does his minutes get replaced? We've tried Deshawn, Peja, Sasha, now Marion. I think the best thing at this point, is hoping that we can start Marion, then piece together a solid rotation or 4 players behind the starters. I don't know if even Caron coming back at the top of the playoffs would help, can that chemistry be picked up just like that, hopefully we can see him back before then, he was a big part to our fast start.
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03-16-2011, 10:58 AM
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#29
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Guru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
I doubt Caron can be a difference-maker this season. If he comes back for the playoffs, he definitely won't be 100% - I don't think a 70% Tuff Juice puts us over the top (hell, he might even hurt us a la Jameer Nelson if he doesn't have time to get re-acclimated into our system...)
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Yup, which is a major reason I don't think we can pull it off .
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03-16-2011, 11:01 AM
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#30
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Lazy Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC0007
Full on, double rainbow all the way across the sky. Obviously meaning I agree. But it should be a no brainer that not having Butler is a major problem right now. I don't follow how you can state the fact that we need two-way players so badly and in the same post suggest that Caron basically isn't that big (or markedly so) of an issue.
I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk. Our depth isn't as it was designed without him and that was one thing a lot of us thought would counter NOT having a legit or all-star type 2nd scorer/option. Now that we don't have that guy who can play and contribute above average on both ends while keeping a semi-conventional lineup it's going to be a lot tougher.
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I just think most in this thread are overstating the loss. He was a terrible player for the first month of the season and somehow we were still good.
It would obviously be better if he were still here, but it's not lke we lost our second best player. We lost a rotation player.
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03-16-2011, 11:12 AM
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#31
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
It's really not arguable at all. He's not even their best SF. They were relatively equal offensively, and Marion is obviously a better defender/rebounder.
Now, Caron was the only other player that could carry an offense when he was playing well, and the Mavs definitely miss that. But the package as a whole was nothing close to their second best player this season.
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It is most certainly "arguable" that he's their second-best player. You're having to argue against it right now.
I know you prefer Marion. That's cool. I might agree, I'm not really sure. I definitely prefer him in some respects. But it's definitely arguable.
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"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
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03-16-2011, 11:15 AM
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#32
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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I prefer Butler and Marion to Butler or Marion.
(I also prefer to state the obvious...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 03-16-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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03-16-2011, 11:15 AM
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#33
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Lazy Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
It is most certainly "arguable" that he's their second-best player. You're having to argue against it right now.
I know you prefer Marion. That's cool. I might agree, I'm not really sure. I definitely prefer him in some respects. But it's definitely arguable.
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Arguable that he's their second best player? Come on dude.
From a pure value/talent standpoint, there is absolutely no argument to be made that Caron was better than Tyson Chandler this year. And I really don't think there's a ton of argument for him being better/more valuable than Marion.
And while he's probably a better overall player at this point of their careers, losing Kidd would have hurt a lot worse.
Caron Butler was never, at any point, the second best player on the Mavericks. And he wasn't even close to the second most important.
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03-16-2011, 11:19 AM
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#34
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Not so far. Not even close.
Stevenson was scoring a very efficient 8 points a game (roughly) over the first three months of the season, and playing fantastic defense.
Roddy (so far) has been a downgrade from that production, when you consider all factors.
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I assume we are searching for the best combination of players to replace Caron and D-Steve. In fact, Roddy already is our second leading scorer on a per-minute basis behind Dirk. Our offense is still better when he is not on the floor, but this will change. Yesterday he was great and once his game settles he won't take 10+ shots in 15 minutes.
Defensively he is not as good as D-Steve, but also not a liability. The numbers show it and if I watch the games I see an active Roddy on the defensive end who stays in front most of the time and challanges shots. He still has trouble fighting through screens and gives up a silly foul here and there, yes.
Overall I'd say he can replace both Caron and D-Steve on the offensive end and be an above average defender just because of his speed.
So basically we should insert our best defensive SF into the starting lineup then, which would be Marion. But the bench has considerably cooled off since he is starting, so I am still temped to give Brewer a shot. The way he played I could also imagine that he could contribute the 4 FTA Butler averaged. Peja is not an option in my eyes. I mean, the defense aside, we need a constant rotation and its very likely that Peja will be in and out the reminder of the season due to health. So if hes good to go bring him off the bench as an offensive sub. Not more.
It will come down to the question whether Brewer will be able to hit an open J or not. We'll need that.
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03-16-2011, 11:21 AM
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#35
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Arguable that he's their second best player? Come on dude.
From a pure value/talent standpoint, there is absolutely no argument to be made that Caron was better than Tyson Chandler this year. And I really don't think there's a ton of argument for him being better/more valuable than Marion.
And while he's probably a better overall player at this point of their careers, losing Kidd would have hurt a lot worse.
Caron Butler was never, at any point, the second best player on the Mavericks. And he wasn't even close to the second most important.
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Absolutely, yes. "Arguable" doesn't mean "the most persuasive argument is for this guy." It means...arguable.
He's the only guy of the ones you listed who can create his own shot. He's the best perimeter shooter (by far) of the guys you listed. He scored 35 points in a playoff game last year, and I'd wager that he'd be the only one capable of doing that again this year (if he were healthy).
There's (some) of the argument. So yes, it's arguable. I'm not even saying I agree with the argument, as I'd probably lean your way. But it's easily made, and it's far from ridiculous.
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John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
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03-16-2011, 11:23 AM
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#36
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
Arguable that he's their second best player? Come on dude.
From a pure value/talent standpoint, there is absolutely no argument to be made that Caron was better than Tyson Chandler this year. And I really don't think there's a ton of argument for him being better/more valuable than Marion.
And while he's probably a better overall player at this point of their careers, losing Kidd would have hurt a lot worse.
Caron Butler was never, at any point, the second best player on the Mavericks. And he wasn't even close to the second most important.
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On some nights he was.
If he'd somehow been able to keep the pace he was at when he went down with that injury (a HUGE assumption, I know), then it wouldn't be so far-fetched to call him our 2nd-best all-around player (although that wouldn't necessarily make him the 2nd most-important player, as Kidd and Chandler really bring more due to their positions...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 03-16-2011 at 11:32 AM.
Reason: quoted before the edit
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03-16-2011, 11:26 AM
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#37
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
On some nights he was.
If he'd somehow been able to keep the pace he was at when he went down with that injury (a HUGE assumption, I know), then it wouldn't be so far-fetched to call him our 2nd-best all-around player (although that wouldn't necessarily make him the 2nd most-important player, as Kidd and Chandler really bring more due to their positions...)
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Yeah, I'm not even sure where "second most important" came from. I certainly didn't say that....
Anyway, doesn't matter too much. Some people think he's overrated or whatever. That's cool. I disagree, but it's entirely possible the Mavs were simply playing "over their heads" when he was in the lineup, and it wasn't really his presence that made all the difference. Hard to say.
But, as mentioned, we are sorely lacking 2-way players, and he seemed to fill a critical role in making our rotation sensible.
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03-16-2011, 11:29 AM
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#38
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Old School Balla
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 13,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jthig32
I just think most in this thread are overstating the loss. He was a terrible player for the first month of the season and somehow we were still good.
It would obviously be better if he were still here, but it's not lke we lost our second best player. We lost a rotation player.
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You have to think back to the fact that Butler got here at the All-Star break last year, and he finally seemed to be finding his role on the team. His numbers were all trending upward, and by the time he got hurt he was a very important cog indeed.
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03-16-2011, 11:31 AM
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#39
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
But, as mentioned, we are sorely lacking 2-way players, and he seemed to fill a critical role in making our rotation sensible.
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Considering the fact that Roddy posts good defensive numbers and has surely the biggest upside on offense, couldn't he become our "2-way" player and the 3-spot the defensive "roleplayer", speaking of Brewer? That would just be a switch from what we had in Butler (2-way at the 3) and D-Steve (defense at the 2).
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03-16-2011, 11:33 AM
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#40
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
Absolutely, yes. "Arguable" doesn't mean "the most persuasive argument is for this guy." It means...arguable.
He's the only guy of the ones you listed who can create his own shot. He's the best perimeter shooter (by far) of the guys you listed. He scored 35 points in a playoff game last year, and I'd wager that he'd be the only one capable of doing that again this year (if he were healthy).
There's (some) of the argument. So yes, it's arguable. I'm not even saying I agree with the argument, as I'd probably lean your way. But it's easily made, and it's far from ridiculous.
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If you want to make it semantical, fine. It's arguable. It's a very weak argument, and one easily won by the other side, but arguable.
Also, it's worth noting that Butler had a higher percentage of his buckets assisted than Marion this season. It's a total out lier for Butler's entire career, but so was his three point shooting, so who knows what would have continued.
Last edited by jthig32; 03-16-2011 at 11:40 AM.
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