PGT: What the hell is going on? - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 04-08-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

You'll get no argument from me about that team being a cluster. That's not the same as Dirk quitting on his coach or the team, though, and I maintain that he did not. And I'm more than a little unclear as to why you think that a low defensive ranking for the team and some comments that he may or may not have made to the press indicate that he, personally, quit that year.

I also have to say that I'm not sure why you're pursuing this line of argument, as it doesn't really have anything to do with my original point.

I believe it was in response to you saying :"So I guess I only dreamed that Tyson's Knick's pussed out and quit on their coach earlier this year. Because quitting on your coach is pretty much the definition of mental weakness, and no team that Tyson's on is ever going to succumb to anything like that. "

Hinting pretty hard that somehow Tyson is mentally weak because he quit on his coach? Which I still contend dirk plenty quit on Nellie that year. Yes he put up his numbers but so has tyson.

chumdawg · 04-08-2012, 08:33 PM

Exactly. You can't spill more piss on last year's team than to make such a wild logical stretch that ends in Tyson Chandler being mentally weak.

I get that we couldn't afford him, yes. That he is mentally weak?

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-08-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

This is such a reach. The Knicks situation is completely different. We were a championship level team with savvy veterans, the Knicks..not so much. RC actually understands that defense wins and MikeDToni does not. There's not much to compare.

Tyson's attitude and demeanor is a huge part of the lack of effort and intensity here now, which (Imo) is sadly why not even making the playoffs is a real possibility. No one fears us again, we're getting softer and softer with every game that passes. Guys are testing us physically and we have no one that gets respect from other players. None of our bigs will make you think before you thump on their heads or foul Dirk hard etc. Tyson could intimidate with words and believe it or not effect the game that way. Even when he just dunked the ball it meant you had to watch him beat his chest and verbally rape you! These little things add up.

Nobody really feared us before, either. The media picked against us in almost every series last playoffs. We just took them to school because they underestimated us. Underdog...that is the way the Mavs roll.

SMC0007 · 04-08-2012, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Nobody really feared us before, either. The media picked against us in almost every series last playoffs. We just took them to school because they underestimated us. Underdog...that is the way the Mavs roll.

While that may be true...Who cares what the media thinks? They don't enter the equation. Bottom line is, you are fooling yourself if you think players don't respect Tyson or classify his as tough...mentally and physically.

Underdog may be how the Mavs roll...problem is the wheels are off.

grndmstr_c · 04-08-2012, 09:00 PM

Who said Tyson was mentally weak? I sure didn't say that, and I certainly don't think it. I simply (albeit sarcastically) pointed out that his presence on the Knicks was insufficient to prevent other players from falling prey to a sustained and collective bout of mental weakness.

chumdawg · 04-08-2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I simply (albeit sarcastically) pointed out that his presence on the Knicks was insufficient to prevent other players from falling prey to a sustained and collective bout of mental weakness.

To what end, home skillet? To piss all over a critical part of our championship team? Of course not. To make the front office look good for letting him go? Yeah, that seems right.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-08-2012, 09:11 PM

I never said Tyson was weak mentally. Not really sure where that came from.

grndmstr_c · 04-08-2012, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

To what end, home skillet? To piss all over a critical part of our championship team? Of course not. To make the front office look good for letting him go? Yeah, that seems right.

Or, maybe it was in response to this claim by SMC:

"Missing Chandler badly right about now. Now way he lets this team get so weak mentally. HE was the backbone behind the operation last year and there isn't anyone here that is gonna fill that void."

chumdawg · 04-08-2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Or, maybe it was in response to this claim by SMC:

"Missing Chandler badly right about now. Now way he lets this team get so weak mentally. HE was the backbone behind the operation last year and there isn't anyone here that is gonna fill that void."

Well...did you disprove that by calling him a pussy and saying he quit on his coach?

mavs777 · 04-08-2012, 09:58 PM

Chum's really taken his trolling to the next level, it's impressive.

grndmstr_c · 04-08-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well...did you disprove that by calling him a pussy and saying he quit on his coach?

So, I'm guessing you didn't read post #85 then...

GhostFace · 04-08-2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

You mean we gave up a lot for the pipedream of dwight.

I never understood the advantage of Howard. From all I've seen of Howard during his career is that he is bigger than most guys. I can't remember the last time I heard Howard rallying the troops or being the vocal voice on the defensive end. TC was the perfect fit for us, perfect. We've talked about his health and so on, but with the Mav's heath team it's hard to believe we could not take care of him. I understand the situation that Cubes wanted to be in: free cap space for the first time. And the situation TC wanted to be in: get his money's worth. We just have to wait to see if the trade off was the right call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

TC's been great all year it didn't just start when they went to Woodson, his defense has been great, Carmello's the one that has started to play with effort. Management made the right decision by not giving TC that ridiculous contract but still he has been worth every penny for the Knicks in year 1. That being said you can't build a future around him, he can be one of big pieces but you need proven scorers around him. Mavs were smartly looking towards the future.

I agree with you on managements decision, but it sucks that nothing could be worked out. Dirk really is a special player to take pay cuts instead of demanding his fair share. I don't see TC doing the same because he knows his health might be an issue, but like I said.. I don't understand why he didn't place more faith in the Mav's medical staff. If TC gets injured while with the Knicks... that whole team goes down the drain. Their defense is so reliant upon TC and everyone in NY fails horribly to realize that because the headlines are always about: Melo, Amare, Lin.

chumdawg · 04-08-2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

So, I'm guessing you didn't read post #85 then...

Of course I did.

You called Tyson Chandler a pussy, a quitter, and mentally weak. (The first time, I mean.)

grndmstr_c · 04-08-2012, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Chum's really taken his trolling to the next level, it's impressive.

Indeed.

chumdawg · 04-08-2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Indeed.

You were getting trolled, is that it?

You were not getting trolled.

Have the balls to back it up, if you are going to say it.

j0Shi · 04-08-2012, 10:51 PM

I'm really tired of reading about TC. Love him, but not on the team any longer. Stop crying.

No prove he would have changed this year.

"Man I missed Tyson tonight. No way he would have allowed West to step on a basketball."

Get over it.

Underdog · 04-08-2012, 11:09 PM

Tyson was a great player who helped us win a ring and his importance can't be understated - obviously his presence is missed... But the real kick in the nuts? For as good as Tyson Chandler was last year, Lamar Odom was better.

Stings, don't it?

SMC0007 · 04-08-2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

I'm really tired of reading about TC. Love him, but not on the team any longer. Stop crying.

No prove he would have changed this year.

"Man I missed Tyson tonight. No way he would have allowed West to step on a basketball."

Get over it.

This is a mediocre fart.

SMC0007 · 04-08-2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Tyson was a great player who helped us win a ring and his importance can't be understated - obviously his presence is missed... But the real kick in the nuts? For as good as Tyson Chandler was last year, Lamar Odom was better.

Stings, don't it?

Well Tyson didn't win a 6th man of the year award, true. That said, part of the reason was because he was busy being a key cog in the starting lineup of a championship team. One that dismissed the LALALAkers. I'd say, The real kick in the coch is that the guys that are still here don't have a lot of "it". Unless it is issues.

Ed99 · 04-09-2012, 12:29 AM

This situation reminds me a bit of last year.
All the experts didnt believe and now dont believe as well.
Other teams wanted to play us in the first round since they thought we are weak and the result was the ring.

We are clearly a playoff team!
Mistakes that happen in the RS dont happen in the PO.

I believe in a long playoff run!
Maybe its a very naive way of thinking but hey it worked last year as well.

nowhereman · 04-09-2012, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Tyson was a great player who helped us win a ring and his importance can't be understated - obviously his presence is missed... But the real kick in the nuts? For as good as Tyson Chandler was last year, Lamar Odom was better.

Stings, don't it?

It would sting more if there was any truth, or even at attempt at substantiation, supporting this ridiculous claim.

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

It would sting more if there was any truth, or even at attempt at substantiation, supporting this ridiculous claim.

They don't give Sixth Man Awards to scrubs.

His failure in a Mavs uniform doesn't undo his accomplishments from last season.

nowhereman · 04-09-2012, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

They don't give Sixth Man Awards to scrubs.

His failure in a Mavs uniform doesn't undo his accomplishments from last season.

No doubt. But TC led the league in true shooting and finished third in dpoy while being a critical part of a championship team. Not buying that LO was better than TC last year. And especially not if you include playoffs.

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

No doubt. But TC led the league in true shooting and finished third in dpoy while being a critical part of a championship team. Not buying that LO was better than TC last year. And especially not if you include playoffs.

Lamar Odom was the most efficient player in the league last season and had one of the highest shooting percentages AWAY from the basket. He topped or matched most of Tyson's stats and was just as important to the Lakers win shares as Tyson was to the Mavericks.

He also finished first (not third) as Sixth Man of the Year, placing him above Jason Terry, who was much more critical to the Mavs winning a ring than Tyson Chandler...

I don't know how else you can quantify his success, but I think you're playing a little revisionist history if you think Tyson Chandler was so much better than Lamar Odom last season that it's not even up for debate.

nowhereman · 04-09-2012, 11:20 AM

I'll follow cuban's wisdom from the Sloan conference on this and say first that win shares are completely pointless. Next I will say that odom's relative impact on his team, even if exactly proportional to tysons impact on the mavs, is inherently lower than Tyson's overall impact because the Mavs collective performance was greater. Also, his efg away from the basket means very little about his contribution or their comparative play. And your initial comment was the first conclusory statement in this debate, offered with no substantiation so I would like to point out that between the two of us, you're the one that initially tried to preclude this from debate.

And Jet being "much more" critical to the championship? Talk about revisionist history.

markus1234 · 04-09-2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Lamar Odom was the most efficient player....

OK this time let me quote someone (like predicted).

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188820

And plz do not argue with me. Argue with him...

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

I'll follow cuban's wisdom from the Sloan conference on this and say first that win shares are completely pointless. Next I will say that odom's relative impact on his team, even if exactly proportional to tysons impact on the mavs, is inherently lower than Tyson's overall impact because the Mavs collective performance was greater. Also, his efg away from the basket means very little about his contribution or their comparative play. And your initial comment was the first conclusory statement in this debate, offered with no substantiation so I would like to point out that between the two of us, you're the one that initially tried to preclude this from debate.

You brought up Tyson's true shooting percentage as a point in his favor, I noted where the shots were coming from in defense of Odom, then suddenly the stat means nothing to you? And win shares don't mean anything to you either, but then you imply that the success of the team is indicative of the success of the individual? Sure, just toss out the stats that don't support your narrative...

The first rule to winning a debate is that it's easier to attack your opponent than to defend your position... But trying to win a debate isn't the same as being right. I'll admit that my initial statement is tough to quantify, but calling it a "ridiculous claim" when it is an easy argument to make is just off-base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

And Jet being "much more" critical to the championship? Talk about revisionist history.

I think you need to watch the playoffs again - Chandler wasn't very good against the Blazers or the Lakers, and many (not myself) would argue that Terry should have been the Finals MVP.

I also think Marion and Kidd were more important than Chandler to our playoff success - sure, Tyson was the missing piece, but he certainly wasn't the biggest piece.

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

OK this time let me quote someone (like predicted).

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188820

And plz do not argue with me. Argue with him...

How does Hollinger's prediction that Odom will decline as a player make my statement that "Odom was the most efficient player in the league last season" any less true?

What point are you trying to make and why do you keep using Spurstalk as your "source?"

markus1234 · 04-09-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

and why do you keep using Spurstalk as your "source?"

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hollinger+per+fluke

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hollinger+per+fluke

Neat, now answer the relevant part of my post...

SMC0007 · 04-09-2012, 11:53 AM

This thread is title is now completely fitting.

markus1234 · 04-09-2012, 11:54 AM

"Odom was the most efficient player in the league last season" = true but.....fluke

nowhereman · 04-09-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You brought up Tyson's true shooting percentage as a point in his favor, I noted where the shots were coming from in defense of Odom, then suddenly the stat means nothing to you? And win shares don't mean anything to you either, but then you state the opposite by implying that the success of the team is indicative of the success of the individual? Sure, just toss out the stats that don't support your narrative...

First, TY lead the league in TS%. I didn't offer a 'where the shots came from' narrative. I think there's a lot more value to outright leading the league in TS% than there is to having 'one of' the highest shooting percentages from [insert qualifier].

Second, I offered two things wrong analytically with your WS. One was that it's a terrible stat, and the second was that even if you go by the stat to support LO, his contribution was still lower than Tysons.

Quote:

The first rule to winning a debate is that it's easier to attack your opponent than to defend your position... But trying to win a debate isn't the same as being right.

And offering conclusory sentences that LO was better than TY without any substantiation, as you first did, means you were still the first one to indicate that LO was undebatably better than TY.

Quote:

I think you need to watch the playoffs again - Chandler wasn't very good against the Blazers or the Lakers and many would argue that Terry should have been the Finals MVP.

I also think Marion and Kidd were more important than Chandler to our playoff success - sure, Tyson was the missing piece, but he certainly wasn't the biggest piece.

Jet hit some big shots. But I was at the game Chandler collected 20 rebounds in a pivotal first round game, and I remember Chandler playing 40+ minutes in the finals and controlling the paint defensively. I remember how important the staggered high screens were to winning game 4 against OKC. "Much more" critical?

First, somehow you've equated LO's winning the 6th man of the year award to Terry's performance in the playoffs, and next you've used the justification of Terry being "much more" critical (without any substantiation) to the championship to indicate via transitive property that LO was somehow better than Tyson Chandler last year. That's pretty tortuous.

Underdog · 04-09-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

"Odom was the most efficient player in the league last season" = true but.....fluke

But true.

I never said anything about this season, so the idea of it being a fluke is irrelevant.

Dirkadirkastan · 04-09-2012, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

This thread is title is now completely fitting.

Except for the "PGT" part. We're bickering about two guys that aren't Mavericks.

LonghornDub · 04-09-2012, 12:27 PM

If you think anybody other than Cardinal was the most crucial player to the Mavs' success last year...you must be on that dope.

Kante · 04-09-2012, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Except for the "PGT" part. We're bickering about two guys that aren't Mavericks.

My fault with the PGT.

dude1394 · 04-09-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Tyson was a great player who helped us win a ring and his importance can't be understated - obviously his presence is missed... But the real kick in the nuts? For as good as Tyson Chandler was last year, Lamar Odom was better.

Stings, don't it?

Completely disagree. That's like saying jet was better.

dude1394 · 04-09-2012, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

I'm really tired of reading about TC. Love him, but not on the team any longer. Stop crying.

No prove he would have changed this year.

"Man I missed Tyson tonight. No way he would have allowed West to step on a basketball."

Get over it.

The moves and direction of the mbt is of utmost interest and a fantastic topic of endless discussion. It is easy to not participate in the discussion.
Quit crying.

dude1394 · 04-09-2012, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

First, TY lead the league in TS%. I didn't offer a 'where the shots came from' narrative. I think there's a lot more value to outright leading the league in TS% than there is to having 'one of' the highest shooting percentages from [insert qualifier].

Second, I offered two things wrong analytically with your WS. One was that it's a terrible stat, and the second was that even if you go by the stat to support LO, his contribution was still lower than Tysons.

And offering conclusory sentences that LO was better than TY without any substantiation, as you first did, means you were still the first one to indicate that LO was undebatably better than TY.

Jet hit some big shots. But I was at the game Chandler collected 20 rebounds in a pivotal first round game, and I remember Chandler playing 40+ minutes in the finals and controlling the paint defensively. I remember how important the staggered high screens were to winning game 4 against OKC. "Much more" critical?

First, somehow you've equated LO's winning the 6th man of the year award to Terry's performance in the playoffs, and next you've used the justification of Terry being "much more" critical (without any substantiation) to the championship to indicate via transitive property that LO was somehow better than Tyson Chandler last year. That's pretty tortuous.

Maybe if we had 10 jets or 10 odoms on the team we would be unbeatable.