NBA Season 16-17: General Thread

[BPo001]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

I was actually very impressed with Zaza up until that Kawahi play. Kawahi has already slightly re-injured his ankle and then just a few minutes Zaza slides his foot under him. That's actually a play that is done quite a bit except that it's more of the body as they come down than the foot like that. Knowing Zaza being a physical player, there is no doubt that it was intentional. IMO, he should be suspended but then it's not going to matter anyway. He's normally a guy that barely plays half a game vs the franchise player of the other team. You would have to take out KD and Curry to equal the amount of damage done.

Congratulations Zaza. You just got your team to the Finals with that play for a measly foul call.

Playing physical and playing dirty are 2 completely different things. I don't think the play was intentional. Just sucks because the Spurs have no shit at competing without Leonard. These playoffs are boring.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Kawhi was likely going to reinjure that ankle anyway.

If you watch the replay, Zaza can't even believe he is called for the foul. It seems like an authentic reaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs9SpOUp7_g

And the SA beat writer quoted Kawhi who said it wasn't dirty...

Mike Finger‏Verified account
@mikefinger

Kawhi told me he does not think the Zaza play was dirty. Said he was just contesting the shot.

That was also before Kawhi had seen the video, which he even said he needs to see it. Honestly, looking at the angle with Zaza facing the camera, it doesn't look as bad. But for some reason, the angle with Zaza's back, it really looks like he takes an extra step just to get position underneath Kawhi.

I've been a big fan or even huge fan of Zaza. The guy plays his role to perfection in being a big guy that sets hard screens and plays very physical. If he were a free agent, I would love to have him back on the Mavs.

But IMO, he just went too far this time. His championship favored team was down 23 points in the third quarter of game one and had no answer for the Spurs. He only knows one way to step up his game and that's to be more physical and intimidating.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

That was also before Kawhi had seen the video, which he even said he needs to see it. Honestly, looking at the angle with Zaza facing the camera, it doesn't look as bad. But for some reason, the angle with Zaza's back, it really looks like he takes an extra step just to get position underneath Kawhi.

I've been a big fan or even huge fan of Zaza. The guy plays his role to perfection in being a big guy that sets hard screens and plays very physical. If he were a free agent, I would love to have him back on the Mavs.

But IMO, he just went too far this time. His championship favored team was down 23 points in the third quarter of game one and had no answer for the Spurs. He only knows one way to step up his game and that's to be more physical and intimidating.

Spurs fans want Zaza murdered and for his children to grow up without a father. Any favoring of the Spurs I had over the Warriors went right out the window because of how awful Spurs fans are. Especially considering Bowen, the dirtiest player of all time, was once lauded by their fans.

The fact remains that Leonard's ankle is shot. If you miss a big time elimination game, then you have a serious injury. Any reasonably healthy player wouldn't get hurt like that after a landing on a foot as it happens all the time.

Oh and Leonard had already aggravated the injury BEFORE the Zaza foul.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...ll-Play-Game-2

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Spurs fans want Zaza murdered and for his children to grow up without a father. Any favoring of the Spurs I had over the Warriors went right out the window because of how awful Spurs fans are. Especially considering Bowen, the dirtiest player of all time, was once lauded by their fans.

The fact remains that Leonard's ankle is shot. If you miss a big time elimination game, then you have a serious injury. Any reasonably healthy player wouldn't get hurt like that after a landing on a foot as it happens all the time.

Oh and Leonard had already aggravated the injury BEFORE the Zaza foul.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...ll-Play-Game-2

Yeah just take a trip to spurstalk and read all the posters hoping he dies, gets cancer, his family gets bombed, etc etc...

[saclare]

The whole ZaZa/Kawhi incident was totally unintentional. It's being blown up since Kawhi is one of the best players. I fully believe ZaZa was going out to contest and is just a goofy big man, is all. Shit happens over the course of the season. It just is terrible timing for the Spurs.

[EricaLubarsky]

Zaza has a nasty history with Kawhi. This one may have been unintentional, but it's not his first. Kinda like Bowen-- any given contact may be accidental, but when you look down the list, it makes each one harder to answer for. Not saying Zaza did this one on purpose or that he's got a laundry list as long as Bowen, but he does have history with Leonard.

https://twitter.com/Alxnoir/status/8...836032/video/1

[sefant77]

"Bruce...Carter is killing us, stop him..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bP5preraY18

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

"Bruce...Carter is killing us, stop him..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bP5preraY18

https://twitter.com/JabariJYoung/sta...79214395756545
https://twitter.com/JabariJYoung/sta...73794897743872
"Follow up?"

Uhh Pop, why did the league put a stop to that? Was it Bruce Bowen? Did his coach ever stop him from his antics? How many times did he go after VC's leg? How many times did he go after Kobe's leg in 02? He injured Amare and Nash. He karate kick'd the face of Wally Szczerbiak... But yeah let's talk about Zaza's past and how it hurts your team, not how Bowen did it for years to help your team.

I rly feel bad for Kawhi, especially if it was intentional. But i have absolutely 0 sympathy for Pop or Spurs fans who all had no problem with Bowen, and instead called VC, Ray Allen, Nash etc all soft for complaining about Bowen.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Also... Pop on Bowen from 11/18/2006

https://web.archive.org/web/20080612...k.38e2352.html

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich criticized the NBA on Friday for warning Bruce Bowen about his defensive "tactics" and complained league officials are "trying to change the way my best defender plays."
NBA executive vice president of basketball operations Stu Jackson, who handles disciplinary matters for the league, called Bowen at home on Sunday night and told him he needed to watch his feet and give shooters room to land. If not, Jackson said, Bowen faced a possible fine or suspension.

Popovich said the league never informed Spurs officials of the conversation and he learned of it only after reading Wednesday's Express-News.

"They didn't bother to call the owner, the (general manager) or the coach," Popovich said. "No one. They're trying to change the way Bruce plays and we don't even know about it?

"Secondly, what they're telling him is highly inaccurate. It's unfounded and fueled by media pressure and player complaints."

New York guard Steve Francis sprained his left ankle after landing on Bowen's foot in a Nov. 6 game. When the teams met again four days later, Knicks coach Isiah Thomas threatened to break Bowen's foot after Jamal Crawford almost came down on him on a drive to the basket.

That incident led to a heated exchange between Popovich and Thomas, who was not reprimanded by the league for his actions.

League officials have been instructed to call a foul whenever a defender doesn't give a shooter enough room to land. Vince Carter sprained his ankle in the 2003-04 season after coming down on Bowen. Carter also accused him of purposefully stepping under him in another incident the next season.

Popovich said Bowen is being singled out, citing incidents where New Jersey's Richard Jefferson and Dallas' Josh Howard sprained ankles after landing on Miami's Shaquille O'Neal and Golden State's Mickael Pietrus.

"Did (the league) call them?" Popovich said. "Did they call all those guys (Dirk) Nowitzki landed on when he sprained his ankles the past three, four years? The answer is no.

"So why did they call Bruce? Because it's happened to him twice? Bruce guards an All-Star every night. If he was doing what they're accusing him of doing, wouldn't it have happened a higher percentage of times?

"The people who cry about it are just frustrated about having to go against Bruce."

Popovich is concerned Jackson's warning has taken away some of Bowen's aggressiveness. Houston's Tracy McGrady scored 21 first-half points most of which came against Bowen on Tuesday. After looking at film of Wednesday's loss to Charlotte, Popovich said Bowen sometimes wasn't within "5 feet" of rookie Adam Morrison.
"The league is just trying to cover its ass," Popovich said. "I told Bruce, 'You be Bruce Bowen. You're the best (expletive) defender in this league. You will NOT change the way you play defense.'

"Stu Jackson is not going to change my team just because he thinks he's doing the right thing."

Jackson declined comment except to say he discussed the issue with Spurs general manager R.C. Buford on Friday.

"We registered our disappointment and disagreement with the way it was handled," Popovich said.

Bowen said he took issue with Jackson saying he needed to change his "tactics."

"Tactics means I have a certain way I'm going about doing things and it's purpose-driven," Bowen said.

Bowen also plans to heed his coach's advice even it puts him at risk of being fined.

"I've been given a command," he said, smiling. "So I'm going to keep playing hard."

[sefant77]

The bad part is...with Zaza, you dont know if its maybe really just was his body weight and body control forcing him to do the extra step....with Bowen it was always so clear that it was an absolute unnecessary extra slide forward...

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by sefant77

"Bruce...Carter is killing us, stop him..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bP5preraY18

Those plays are pretty similar to Zaza sliding underneath Kawahi. Turning around walking off and then pull the innocent "what did I do???". Like I said, I really, really like Zaza. The guy plays extremely hard and usually very smart. This time, he just went over the line.

Just because the Spurs had Bowen doesn't make it OK it to happen to Kawahi. The whole two wrongs don't make a thing and all. And it's just that much worse being one of the best personality guys in the league while also pretty much carrying his team right now.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Those plays are pretty similar to Zaza sliding underneath Kawahi. Turning around walking off and then pull the innocent "what did I do???". Like I said, I really, really like Zaza. The guy plays extremely hard and usually very smart. This time, he just went over the line.

Just because the Spurs had Bowen doesn't make it OK it to happen to Kawahi. The whole two wrongs don't make a thing and all. And it's just that much worse being one of the best personality guys in the league while also pretty much carrying his team right now.

Idk man, I don't think the Bowen plays look anything remotely like Zaza. Not even in the same zipcode IMO. I don't think anyone is saying because Bowen did it that it's ok to do it to the Spurs. I know I wasn't, so I'll clarify-

-It's the Spurs fans being so outraged about it, like there isn't a jersey retired up in their rafters of a guy who ended players seasons and tried to do it in the finals to VC. Like Amin elhassin or w/e said today, 29 nba teams can complain about this call, the other team has Bruce Bowen's jersey retired.
-It's Pop calling Zaza out and saying "nobody closes out like that" "it's reckless" "totally unnatural closeout" "player with his history" etc. He went on a tirade about how he doesn't care about intent, that he cares about what happened as a result. He gave an example of manslaughter vs murder and how both result in jail time. Yet Bruce Bowen did far worse, and Spurs fans and Pop are basically saying, "well it wasn't a penalty then", ignoring the hypocrisy of the "intent or not" speech.

It's a penalty now and Zaza was called for the penalty, Pop and Spurs fans have no right to make speeches about not caring about intent and only caring about what the results were or anything beyond that with #12 hanging in their rafters IMO.

[EricaLubarsky]

Man, might as well not even have rules on screens. Players aren't following them and refs not enforcing

[Bryan_Wilson]

I really hope in the off season the league does something about players hooking under for ft's. And jumping forward into players initiating contact. If a player does not go straight up and down when shooting I'd really like for it to be an offensive foul instead of rewarding them with ft's. It's really getting out of hand.

[BPo001]

Kelly Olynyk is putting on a show in the 4th.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by BPo001

Kelly Olynyk is putting on a show in the 4th.

Remember when the Mavs drafted him only to trade down for Shan Larkin? Good times.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Remember when the Mavs drafted him only to trade down for Shan Larkin? Good times.

That's gotta be mostly a joke because Olynyk is one of the inevitable 4-10 borderline starter guys every playoffs that explode for one good game.

Still, our drafts really have been bad. Ugh.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Still, our drafts really have been bad. Ugh.

I'd say both Crowder and Anderson were good picks for where we got them... And Giannis would be here if Cuban listened to the people who are getting paid to make our picks.

But, yeah, none of those guys are on our squad now, so here's to hoping we turn things around this season!

[j0Shi]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...strated-attack

Please let this be true

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'd say both Crowder and Anderson were good picks for where we got them... And Giannis would be here if Cuban listened to the people who are getting paid to make our picks.

But, yeah, none of those guys are on our squad now, so here's to hoping we turn things around this season!

Picking Draymond Green instead of old Sarge and Cuban not fucking with Donnies choice and we are probably a contender right now

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...strated-attack

Please let this be true

That would be hilarious. It's a civil suit, so he's suing for money which may very well be the motivation, but anything that can knock that cocky SOB down a peg.

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

That would be hilarious. It's a civil suit, so he's suing for money which may very well be the motivation, but anything that can knock that cocky SOB down a peg.

The article lays out it pretty simply and they have solid evidence he's involved. Guess its just a matter of how much he settles.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

The article lays out it pretty simply and they have solid evidence he's involved. Guess its just a matter of how much he settles.

The article only quotes the lawyer for the plaintiff who claims to have:

"All the stories that we've heard from all the witnesses were pretty consistent that James Harden was pretty upset about the Facebook post that was posted the night before the attack," Farah told ESPN on Tuesday morning. "There were text messages between Moses and some of James Harden's friends. ... We have a good trail of evidence that leads to James Harden's involvement to this."

So,

1) Harden's friends say that he was pissed at the social media post
2) There are some texts between the perpetrator and Harden's friends. Nothing between Harden himself and the perpetrator and the lawyer is purposely vague when talking about the substance of those messages.

The rest is the lawyer for the plaintiff talking a big game. Then again, it's a civil case which means that the burden of proof is only, “a preponderance of the evidence," which means they only need to convince a jury about 51% (more likely than not), so if they actually find text messages to the perpetrator with Harden's friends telling him to do it, then their case is pretty simple. Then again, it's a lawyer aiming to make hundreds of thousands of dollars by accusing Harden of masterminding the attack. I'll take all of his biased statements with a grain of salt until the case.

[Underdog]

Well, the master has spoken (although I'm sure he's biased): Bruce Bowen On Zaza Pachulia's Closeout: "Intentional And Definitely Dangerous"

“That play? I’ve watched it and, yeah, I thought he took an extra step,” he said. “Plenty of time to stop where he did, but he continued moving in that direction of Kawhi. That seems like it’s intentional and it’s definitely dangerous.”

[...]

“What was his intent?” Bowen said. “You can rewind something five times and convince yourself of anything. What I saw, he kept moving in that direction after he contested the shot. You know you have to let a player come down. He kept walking into that space, so, for me, that says more about the intent.”

[...]

“Honestly, you might just run by (the shooter),” Bowen said. “You’re talking about a big man now, and how often do they close out on a three-point shooter? So, whether it’s Pau Gasol or Karl-Anthony Towns, they stay put. There is no technique with bigs. They usually stop short and just put their hands up, because of their length. But, Zaza kept going and took the extra steps.”

[...]

“I don’t know what is going to happen to Zaza, but if that had been me, I know what would have happened: suspension.”

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

The article only quotes the lawyer for the plaintiff who claims to have:



So,

1) Harden's friends say that he was pissed at the social media post
2) There are some texts between the perpetrator and Harden's friends. Nothing between Harden himself and the perpetrator and the lawyer is purposely vague when talking about the substance of those messages.

The rest is the lawyer for the plaintiff talking a big game. Then again, it's a civil case which means that the burden of proof is only, “a preponderance of the evidence," which means they only need to convince a jury about 51% (more likely than not), so if they actually find text messages to the perpetrator with Harden's friends telling him to do it, then their case is pretty simple. Then again, it's a lawyer aiming to make hundreds of thousands of dollars by accusing Harden of masterminding the attack. I'll take all of his biased statements with a grain of salt until the case.

True it is coming from the lawyer so he's putting out as much as he can to win case/get money.

[Melonhead]

I thought Zaza was intentionally trying to get under him. He turns away but keeps sliding that foot after the shot. Players been in the league forever they know what theyre doing by turning away and not making it too obvious.

Now I dont think he expected Kawhi to be out for the series, but the possibility was always there that he could get hurt.

Zaza was one of my favorites, but I do think he intentionally kept going under after the ball was released.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well, the master has spoken (although I'm sure he's biased): Bruce Bowen On Zaza Pachulia's Closeout: "Intentional And Definitely Dangerous"

Biggest difference is it's a close out by a 280lb guy trying to contest someone fading away on a close out and a defensive switch. I thought the extra step was him just gathering and turning to get his momentum going the other way to run the floor. It was reckless to me but not intentional. Bruce most of the time was close to his man and in isolation plays then would just shove his foot under them.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Still not buying it. Zaza can barely jump three feet off the ground, so it is still easily within the realm of reason that he stumbled a little bit. And he doesn't have a long wingspan either, so it makes sense that he would close out tighter physically. And the fact that he is looking away from where his foot lands just adds to the ridiculousness of this.

It all makes for great playoff drama though, but it's all very silly at the end of the day that Zaza mean't to hurt him.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Biggest difference is it's a close out by a 280lb guy trying to contest someone fading away on a close out and a defensive switch. I thought the extra step was him just gathering and turning to get his momentum going the other way to run the floor. It was reckless to me but not intentional. Bruce most of the time was close to his man and in isolation plays then would just shove his foot under them.

Yeah, this is the way I saw it too... And Bruce Bowen can eat a bag of dicks forever.

[sefant77]

Zaza was actually all in motion....Dickhead Bowen was mostly standing and just slide one foot forward

[EricaLubarsky]

Why do we trust Bowen?

He could be the dirtiest player since Laimbeer and he's a Spur. Both those things make me question him a lot.

[GermanDunk]

GSW has injected Pervitin

[Bryan_Wilson]

Can the Spurs keep it within 50?

[Underdog]

The Spurs are shooting like garbage -- Aldridge, Gasol, Green, Mills, Lee, Dedmon, Murray, and Forbes have hit just 1 shot each, combining for 8-30. Simmons is the only one who can hit a shot, sinking 7-10.

72-44 at the half is looking like a sweep without Kawhi.

[EricaLubarsky]

You need a star to disrupt the defense and make everything else easier. That's why Spurs suck without Leonard and why everyone on our team looked like trash this year.

[Underdog]

@ESPNSteinLine: The Finals gonna have to be GREAT to prevent 2016-17 from being remembered as the first NBA regular season that was better than the playoffs

[Bryan_Wilson]

https://twitter.com/JaeAzizi/status/864664803276500992

That #12 Jersey is still in full effect.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://twitter.com/JaeAzizi/status/864664803276500992

That #12 Jersey is still in full effect.

LOL same exact thing. And I still don't think it's malicious or dirty. Good god, people act like this isn't a game where people jump high and might land poorly. Half the league probably twists their ankle every game played.

And it just needs to be repeated for the umteenth time...Zaza didn't injure Leonard. He. Was. Already. Injured.

[dirt_dobber]

Aldridge - disappearing right before my eyes. 8 points really? wow.

[EricaLubarsky]

Yeah, can we just skip to the finals? Conference finals suck