Mavs Scandal Thread

[Luke]

This doesn't involve any of the players on the court... has no impact on how I feel about the team.. I've never liked Cuban so no change there. I do feel bad for the women.... but, again, not really something that plays a role in my fandom of the team. It's not like it was Dirk doing this.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Luke

This doesn't involve any of the players on the court... has no impact on how I feel about the team.. I've never liked Cuban so no change there. I do feel bad for the women.... but, again, not really something that plays a role in my fandom of the team. It's not like it was Dirk doing this.

Yeah, the article states that the locker room was the one place where these women felt safest, which is definitely reassuring... My opinions on Mark Cuban and the Mavs organization have definitely been affected, but none of this changes how I feel about the squad itself.

I do wonder if this pushes Dirk into retirement this summer though.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, the article states that the locker room was the one place where these women felt safest, which is definitely reassuring... My opinions on Mark Cuban and the Mavs organization have definitely been affected, but none of this changes how I feel about the squad itself.

I do wonder if this pushes Dirk into retirement this summer though.

I can see Dirk being disgusted by Cuban and the front office and retiring... or maybe it pushes him to no longer want to be a Mav..to spend a year somewhere else if he still wants to play. Obviously, this is blind speculation. The odds are he plays next year if he feels good..and that he trusts Cuban and Donnie if they say they didn't know.

[Luke]

The biggest issues outside of the women that were impacted:
1. Have to hope that it doesn't impact players wanting to play here.
2. Have to hope that it won't impact Mavs draft picks.

[Underdog]

Can Mark Cuban be trusted to clean up Mavericks' office misbehavior if it happened under his watch?
https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dal...happened-watch

One of the biggest problems for Cuban is that to recover from this scandal, he'll basically have to admit he didn't provide the proper amount of oversight. He's taken tremendous pride in knowing everything that happens in the organization.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

At the same time, it'll have to be proven without a doubt that he somehow covered up sexual misconduct. I think that's a tricky road to go down.

If enough witnesses come out and claim he DID know, then I think selling the team is inevitable. It'll be hard to come back from such a PR nightmare.

There is wayyyy too much grey area right now though. The SI article is rather vague

[mac222b]

Too early to speculate about the ramifications. Have always seen Cuban as an overgrown fratboy type and have never been a fan, though there many things about him that I appreciate.

I find it very hard to believe he didn't know. It will be a question of whether or not he tried to cover-up wrong doing or silence the whistleblowers.

[Luke]

I don't like Cuban at all... but it is more than possible for him to not have known. I work for a small company. I'm generally pretty good friends with all of the staff that works underneath me. I was shocked when I found out that two of them had relations with the President of our company a couple of years earlier. Other people in the company knew. I didn't.. HR didn't. It happens all the time.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Can Mark Cuban be trusted to clean up Mavericks' office misbehavior if it happened under his watch?
https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dal...happened-watch

the article is a little over the top.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Just heard Mike Sirois & Donnie on the Ticket say Article 24 of the NBA guidelines allow the commissioner to levy a fine up to $2.5 million and the forfeiture of draft picks. There was something else it allows him to do too. I was kinda half-way listening at that point because they'd been talking about it for 45 min straight, but I perked up when I heard the draft picks part.

Folks on here last night were saying that wasn't possible.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

It's possible for Cuban to quote, unquote not have known about recent misdeeds. But, when he bought the team in 1999 there was already reports of Ussery's inappropriate behavior with female employees published in the Dallas Morning News.

It would simply be negligent to say "Oh, I relied on my CEO to handle sexual harassment issues for me, so I didn't know..." You don't give a guy with a past history of sexual harassment that much oversight. If he did, and truly didn't know, then I really don't feel that bad for him because that's just stupid.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Just heard Mike Sirois & Donnie on the Ticket say Article 24 of the NBA guidelines allow the commissioner to levy a fine up to $2.5 million and the forfeiture of draft picks. There was something else it allows him to do too. I was kinda half-way listening at that point because they'd been talking about it for 45 min straight, but I perked up when I heard the draft picks part.

Folks on here last night were saying that wasn't possible.

You need to learn how to fucking read -- I didn't say it wasn't possible, I said it would be unfair to the players.

This is the exact post you're referring to:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I get why the Pats lost a pick when Brady deflated those footballs -- it was a player who broke the rules, so the squad (in addition to the franchise) was punished in the form of a lost draft pick. Although the Pats had 9 picks in that draft, so taking one away wasn't exactly going to kill them... But you take away the Mavs pick, and you're pretty much going to cripple the careers of guys like Harrison Barnes and Dennis Smith Jr, who had absolutely nothing to do with this scandal.

Even if the league took a second-rounder, that inadvertently punishes a draft prospect, as it reduces the number of drafted players from 60 to 59. It's a lot trickier to punish teams via picks in the NBA than in the NFL, where there's 224 players getting drafted (not including compensatory picks and whatnot).

Nah, I could see fines levied, but taking a pick seems like overkill in this case... Especially since players weren't involved.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You need to learn how to fucking read -- I didn't say it wasn't possible, I said it would be unfair to the players.

This is the exact post you're referring to:

The last 24 hours you've been like a god damn lawyer picking apart every word I type.

You want to talk about reading? A part of reading is inference, using context clues to gain understanding.

The very quote you cited makes it sound like you don't think the NBA taking the Mavs draft picks is likely at all.

The article the radio show hosts cited makes it sound like there's a distinct possibility the NBA does just that.

You clearly suggested it wouldn't happen. Today an article comes out saying it very well could happen. Webster's dictionary doesn't clear up that confusion.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

The last 24 hours you've been like a god damn lawyer picking apart every word I type.

You want to talk about reading? A part of reading is inference, using context clues to gain understanding.

The very quote you cited makes it sound like you don't think the NBA taking the Mavs draft picks is likely at all.

The article the radio show hosts cited makes it sound like there's a distinct possibility the NBA does just that.

You clearly suggested it wouldn't happen. Today an article comes out saying it very well could happen. Webster's dictionary doesn't clear up that confusion.

Once again, your grasp of the English language is tenuous, at best... There's a big difference between "possibility" and "probability" -- if you read the actual words I typed, you'll see that I think it's unfair, not that it isn't possible. Maybe stop putting words in my mouth and I'll stop shredding your poorly thought-out posts?

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Underdog,

What would you say are the chances, in a percentage form, that the NBA forfeits a Mavs draft pick?

[Magnum_3_Ball]

For anyone interested, here is the SI article that's been referenced

https://www.si.com/nba/2018/02/20/da...an-adam-silver

... Article 24. It is the “best interests of the NBA” provision and stipulates that “when a situation arises which is not covered in the Constitution and By-Laws, the Commissioner shall have the authority to make such decisions, including the imposition of a penalty, as in his judgment shall be in the best interests of the Association.” Article 24 authorizes a suspension of any length, a fine of up to $2.5 million and the forfeiture of draft picks...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I don't see any recourse to forfeiture of picks unless Cuban himself was the one harassing. Even the Earl K Sneed stuff was a lapse in judgement not firing him years ago and signing him to that new contract, but I don't know what sort of rule there was against retaining him if he'd already been arrested and Cuban forced him into getting mental help.

To me, this all falls on the Ussery stuff since he was president of basketball operations for many moons. It'll be much tougher to claim Cuban didn't know about that.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Underdog,

What would you say are the chances, in a percentage form, that the NBA forfeits a Mavs draft pick?

Right now we don't have enough evidence either way to determine whether the NBA would forfeit the Mavs pick... I suppose that depends on if Mark Cuban was actually involved in a cover-up, otherwise it doesn't make much sense to penalize the franchise over the actions of a few employees.

It also depends on how rampant this behavior is throughout the league -- the NBA risks exposing itself and losing a shit ton of money if this thing escalates. I mean, Ussery is also friends with David Stern. It might be in the league's best interest to sweep this whole thing under the rug.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

... the NBA might open an investigative committee, but there's no way in hell they're going to take over operations. That's just a ridiculous conclusion to jump to.

Fwiw, Silver invoked Article 24 to fine Donald Sterling $2.5 million and in essence force him to sell the Clippers. I'd say that qualifies as taking over operations.

I don't think it's a ridiculous notion. They're already reported to be "closely monitoring" the Mavs independent investigation. What does Adam Silver do if he finds the results of that investigation to be worse than what was first reported?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

Fwiw, Silver invoked Article 24 to fine Donald Sterling $2.5 million and in essence force him to sell the Clippers. I'd say that qualifies as taking over operations.

I don't think it's a ridiculous notion. They're already reported to be "closely monitoring" the Mavs independent investigation. What does Adam Silver do if he finds the results of that investigation to be worse than what was first reported?

Donald Sterling said those words, not a Clippers employee... Unless there's evidence that Mark Cuban harassed these women, then it's not really the same thing.

Also, "closely monitoring" is code for "not concerned enough to open our own investigation" -- if the NBA was angling to cut Cuban out, then they would have already taken matters into their own hands. They didn't hesitate with Sterling. Maybe that changes if new information comes to light, but for now that doesn't look to be the case.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Right now we don't have enough evidence either way to determine whether the NBA would forfeit the Mavs pick... I suppose that depends on if Mark Cuban was actually involved in a cover-up, otherwise it doesn't make much sense to penalize the franchise over the actions of a few employees.

It also depends on how rampant this behavior is throughout the league -- the NBA risks exposing itself and losing a shit ton of money if this thing escalates. I mean, Ussery is also friends with David Stern. It might be in the league's best interest to sweep this whole thing under the rug.

That makes sense logically if Stern is involved, and this is widespread league wide. Only, one of Adam Silver's biggest goals as commissioner is reported to be the fair treatment of & advancement of women in the NBA. This is a core concern for Silver, so that makes me fear his response.

If it were me, I'd say a draft pick being taken away is like maybe a 20% chance. I think the NBA would probably take away one of our 2nd round picks because taking our 1st this year is almost like the NCAA giving SMU the death penalty. It'd be sentencing us to a decade of irrelevance.

I don't know though, even if it's just a 5% chance of the league taking the 1st round pick, it scares the bleep out of me. Hell, I don't want to lose one of the 2nd round picks either.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Magnum_3_Ball

If it were me, I'd say a draft pick being taken away is like maybe a 20% chance. I think the NBA would probably take away one of our 2nd round picks because taking our 1st this year is almost like the NCAA giving SMU the death penalty. It'd be sentencing us to a decade of irrelevance.

That's a big aspect here -- stripping the Mavs of their first rounder would pretty much kill one of the most profitable franchises in the league... Players would have little motivation to play here if the rebuild was set back another year, and fans would stop following the team if the product on the floor suffered as a result (I know I would)... Silver might care about the advancement of women, but destroying 1/30 of the league that he works for isn't going to help solve the problem.

Justice needs to be served, but it needs to be aimed at those who deserve it.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Underdog

That's a big aspect here -- stripping the Mavs of their first rounder would pretty much kill one of the most profitable franchises in the league... Players would have little motivation to play here if the rebuild was set back another year, and fans would stop following the team if the product on the floor suffered as a result (I know I would)... Silver might care about the advancement of women, but destroying 1/30 of the league that he works for isn't going to help solve the problem.

Justice needs to be served, but it needs to be aimed at those who deserve it.

Cuban absolutely deserves to be hit and taking the pick would absolutely salt the earth.

I'll let the investigation happen, but I find it difficult to know that Cuban didn't totally enable that. The owner HAS to know these things, particularly with how much Cuban micromanages.

[mac222b]

No way they take our 1st. Likely don't take any picks. Expect a hefty fine. And other similar stories coming soon.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Cuban absolutely deserves to be hit and taking the pick would absolutely salt the earth.

I'll let the investigation happen, but I find it difficult to know that Cuban didn't totally enable that. The owner HAS to know these things, particularly with how much Cuban micromanages.

Stripping the pick would hurt the players, coaches, and fanbase the most -- Cuban would still make money hand over fist, even if the team sucked for the next decade... Seems like the most sensible punishment would be to levy steep fines against the owner and the organization, otherwise it's the equivalent of slaughtering an entire town just because their mayor happens to be a criminal.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Stripping the pick would hurt the players, coaches, and fanbase the most -- Cuban would still make money hand over fist, even if the team sucked for the next decade... Seems like the most sensible punishment would be to levy steep fines against the owner and the organization, otherwise it's the equivalent of slaughtering an entire town just because their mayor happens to be a criminal.

and then continuing to give the Mayor millions...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Luke

and then continuing to give the Mayor millions...

Well, if you want to talk about removing Cuban as an owner, then that's a different discussion... I just don't think stripping the pick is going to punish him as much as it's going to punish everyone else.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Wow

This actually potentially really impacts my fanhood and if it’s improperly handled and/or high level coverups are revealed, I’m not sure how I can stay a fan.

Unless I find out that Dirk is the one doing the cover ups...and Marion at the time... Barea... well, it's just the office side of it. That doesn't make the hurt for the women any less, but i don't associate the Mavs HR director with the Mavs players..I don't associate Ussery with the players on the floor or the coaching staff. Almost every organization has a stain if you look hard enough. I don't know many people at all that have been in the work force for a couple of decades that haven't been "sexually assaulted" at one point or another ..male or female.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well, if you want to talk about removing Cuban as an owner, then that's a different discussion... I just don't think stripping the pick is going to punish him as much as it's going to punish everyone else.

In one aspect, it is comical that this is happening to Cuban and the Mavs.. of all the owners of the three major sports, it's Cuban and the Mavs. I know someone that's loving this.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

Originally Posted by Luke

... he trusts Cuban and Donnie if they say they didn't know.

What about Donnie? He hasn't been mentioned much in this discussion, but he's been with the Mavs forever. He's more the office side of the equation, and presumably he's in the office more than Mark is.

How much do ya'll think he knew?

[Underdog]

@espn_macmahon: Krutoy Law is firm hired to conduct investigation into sexual misconduct in Mavs organization detailed in @SInow report. Evan Krutoy spent 20+ years as prosecutor in Manhattan District Attorney's Office, including stint as acting deputy bureau chief of sex crimes unit.

@espn_macmahon: Anne Milgram, a former New Jersey attorney general whose law practice focuses on white collar crime and government investigations, will be the lead investigator on the Mavericks’ sexual misconduct case in consultation with the Krutoy Law firm. https://www.lowenstein.com/people/at...s/anne-milgram

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Cuban fined 600,000 for his tanking comments on DR J's podcast per TMAC.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Cuban fined 600,000 for his tanking comments on DR J's podcast per TMAC.

Deserved and not surprising.

Now for the bigger issue.

[Underdog]

Mavs owner Mark Cuban says he's to blame for keeping former employee after domestic violence incidents
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/2...ormer-employee

"I want to be clear, I'm not putting the blame on anybody else," Cuban told ESPN. "It came down to my final decision that I made."

"It was bad, but we made a mistake about the whole thing and didn't pursue what happened with the police after the fact," Cuban told ESPN. "So we got it mostly from Earl's perspective, and because we didn't dig in with the details -- and obviously it was a horrible mistake in hindsight -- we kind of, I don't want to say took his word for it, but we didn't see all the gruesome details until just recently. I didn't read the police report on that until just [Tuesday], and that was a huge mistake obviously."

[j0Shi]

I'm just glad this happens in a season like this. They have all the time in the world now to run a full investigation. I severely hope this gets cleared up completely, because otherwise it could be damaging to the franchise both on and off the court.

It's hard to envision Cuban as someone who tolerates this. He's pretty progressive, has spoken out against Trump and pro gay NBA players. I don't see how he would be fine with misogyny. Of course I get others saying that it's also hard to envision him not being aware at all, but then it's probably a matter of not looking into stuff enough (due to workload, carelessness or whatever) rather than blatantly ignoring facts.

[Magnum_3_Ball]

The co-author of the SI article on the Mavs, Jon Wertheim, will be on with the Hardline on the Ticket at 5:30pm.

You can listen online at theticket.com

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

It's hard to envision Cuban as someone who tolerates this. He's pretty progressive, has spoken out against Trump and pro gay NBA players. I don't see how he would be fine with misogyny. Of course I get others saying that it's also hard to envision him not being aware at all, but then it's probably a matter of not looking into stuff enough (due to workload, carelessness or whatever) rather than blatantly ignoring facts.

I dunno, Skin was just saying that Cuban spends almost zero time in the office -- he's either on the court with the players or working from home (when he's not out in California filming Shark Tank). He likes to sell himself as a hands-on guy, but he's really not so much these days. It's entirely possible that he has little-to-no idea what's going on in the Mavs office on a daily basis... Which of course is an entirely different problem -- one that might be best remedied if he relinquished the title of GM and hired someone else to do the day-to-day stuff.

[saclare]

Ussery and Sneed can be best buddies in hell. Cuban absolutely deserves to be dragged for not firing Sneed on the spot for the first incident. Didn't look into the police report? Really?

As for the sexual misconduct and workplace nightmares shared in the SI piece, I'll reserve any other judgment on anyone else until the investigation comes to light. I'm hoping they don't drag their ass with this as these tend to go, and that everyone involved in rightly punished. I don't care who that may be, be it Cuban or otherwise, as long as they are found in the wrong here, they shouldn't be allowed to remain with the Mavs, office or team staff.

[Me.B]

I think it’s possible that these allegations against Ussery occurred prior to Mark purchasing the team and could have been kept from him by the HR guy that was fired. Would make sense if Mark truly didn’t know. We’ll have to wait for these investigations to be completed though.

If these are true it wouldn’t matter if Mark knew or not, I’d think the NBA could still punish the organization by taking draft picks. If they were to take this years 1st it would be devastating to the Mavs. I think it would lead to Dennis leaving the team as a free agent after his rookie deal is up. If it starts going that route the Mavs might be better off trading Dennis. Absolutely Barnes should be traded.

[FreshJive]

Cuban’s explanation for not firing Sneed is a bit crazy. They retained him to protect women?

“but I didn't want to just fire him, because then he would go out there and get hired again and do it somewhere else," Cuban told ESPN. "That`s what i was truly afraid of and that was the discussion we had internally. It was a choice between just firing him and making sure that we had control of him.”

“ I looked at this as a one-off situation where, OK, if I don't do anything, this person could go out there and do damage on another woman another time.”