2021-2022 Preseason and camp thread - Page 21 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

JustJay · 06-18-2021, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DallasDog

ESPN article:

IMHO the job is Jason Kidd's if he wants it.

A good choice for a variety of reasons.

First, it will be good for Luka and his development. There are many similarities of a young Luka and a young Jason Kidd.

Second, Kidd has experience with the current NBA, players and teams. Kidd hits the ground running.

Third, Kidd learns from his mistakes. Third time as a HC will allow Kidd to exorcize the past errors that cost him jobs.

It's probably going to be Kidd or Mosley if I had to guess. Maybe they go with Mosley because of Luka's relationship with him and to appease him, or Kidd to further develop Luka. Kidd was kind of a poor man's Luka when he was younger he wasn't a great shooter but he could defend. Later in his career he became a great shooter maybe he could help Luka with those things if Luka would be willing to listen. It's probably not easy coaching top 5 players to do new things.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJay

I already agreed they probably wouldn't agree to it so why do you feel the need to ask the same question that I already covered?

Oh did your smart ass mention Marcus Smart? I must've missed it.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJay

It's probably going to be Kidd or Mosley if I had to guess. Maybe they go with Mosley because of Luka's relationship with him and to appease him, or Kidd to further develop Luka. Kidd was kind of a poor man's Luka when he was younger he wasn't a great shooter but he could defend. Later in his career he became a great shooter maybe he could help Luka with those things if Luka would be willing to listen. It's probably not easy coaching top 5 players to do new things.

Kidd a poor man's Luka? Kidd couldn't shoot...Luka could. Kidd could defend....Luka...not so much. Kidd didn't offer you much offensively...not nearly the scorer Luka was.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I readily admit I didn't like Bey all that much. I liked Bane more then Bey and would have traded up to get him at the end of the first for sure to get that extra year. I still think it's too early to write off Green, I wasn't a huge fan of Green either but his defense and lateral movement are far superior to bey. The shocker for me was his corner 3 going from good and borderline great in college to air ball and side of backboard in pro. Maybe more playtime will help him.

Only issue I had with Green is to me it was early....I just saw better prospects on the board. I do not understand how someone could think Green was a better prospect than Saadiq Bey on any level.....

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

All good things.....

...but the wife beating thing would be another PR hit after the sexual harassment stuff.

Was he convicted of wife beating?

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Kidd a poor man's Luka? Kidd couldn't shoot...Luka could. Kidd could defend....Luka...not so much. Kidd didn't offer you much offensively...not nearly the scorer Luka was.

Luka deviation from average on offense is greater than Kidd's deviation from the average on defense.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-18-2021, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

Was he convicted of wife beating?

Yep. He was arrested and found guilty. He only had to pay a fine and take anger management classes.

DallasDog · 06-18-2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

All good things.....

...but the wife beating thing would be another PR hit after the sexual harassment stuff.

You are going back several years for those. Close to 15 years on the divorce.

People still have a positive view of Kidd.

JustJay · 06-18-2021, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Kidd a poor man's Luka? Kidd couldn't shoot...Luka could. Kidd could defend....Luka...not so much. Kidd didn't offer you much offensively...not nearly the scorer Luka was.

Luka cannot shoot he shoots a career 33% from 3. If he could raise that to 38% he'd be unstoppable. Kidd was a good 3 point shooter by the time he got to Dallas at the end of his career. He learned to shoot and improved that aspect of his game.

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJay

Luka cannot shoot he shoots a career 33% from 3. If he could raise that to 38% he'd be unstoppable. Kidd was a good 3 point shooter by the time he got to Dallas at the end of his career. He learned to shoot and improved that aspect of his game.

Luka shot 35 percent this year on 8.5 attempts per game. Better than Trae's 34 percent. Agree if Luka gets near 40% and hits free throws at an 80 percent clip he will average 35 points per game.

Bryan_Wilson · 06-18-2021, 05:04 PM

I'm not a fan of Kidd as a coach. People talk about issues with Ricks personality but are ok with Kidd? Lol. Jabari Parker and Kidd went at it. The radio said Vogel made a joke to Kidd along the lines of "so when are you going to stab me from behind?". Loved the player... really don't see the appeal as a Head Coach. I'll take Mosley and Billups and the Nets guy 100 times out of 100 over Kidd. I'd rather Dantoni and I don't even like Dantoni. I hope this was one of those, let's leak this name and see what general reactions are on it, type of thing.

Melonhead · 06-18-2021, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

All good things.....

...but the wife beating thing would be another PR hit after the sexual harassment stuff.

Maybe I’m missing something but why are people clamoring for Kidd. He was bad in Milwaukee and they underachieved. They ranked at the bottom in defense. And I want a players coach that players want to play for. He was not on good terms with some of the roster IIRC. He’s the opposite of someone like Mosley.

And yeah I never forget this part of him with domestic violence.

EricaLubarsky · 06-18-2021, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Maybe I’m missing something but why are people clamoring for Kidd. He was bad in Milwaukee and they underachieved. They ranked at the bottom in defense. And I want a players coach that players want to play for. He was not on good terms with some of the roster IIRC. He’s the opposite of someone like Mosley.

And yeah I never forget this part of him with domestic violence.

This.

Rick is literally out because:
1) he didn't get along with players that well and rubbed a lot of players (Luka included) the wrong way.
2) Cuban and Cuban's gambling buddy undermined Rick

Kidd has a track record of making players angry and he's not wily enough to negotiate that minefield of Cuban's. Kidd just seems like a less competent Rick.

Dallas41 · 06-18-2021, 07:00 PM

I don't get all the Kidd bashing because of a mistake he made in life 15 years ago

Are you guys serious.....

Anyway, I prefer Mosley, Hammon or Jackson but I would have no problems with Kidd.

I think he would be really good with Luka in terms of developing him overall as a PG to reach full potential.

Luka in late game situations haven't been that great either and I think Kidd would help him take that next step in game management (late game turnovers/execution/shot selection)

FreshJive · 06-18-2021, 07:08 PM

I prefer to let the yet to be dreamt of GM to pick the coach.

NeedlesKane · 06-18-2021, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/sta...20930442919937

When did this news leak? A work colleague of mine, who is friends with Dirk, told me that he was doing that at 10 AM this morning. Did I hear about it first? lmao

FreshJive · 06-18-2021, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

Highly unlikely

Damnit. Zeus is real though, right?

NeedlesKane · 06-18-2021, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Kemba traded to OKC for Horford

There goes two destinations for KP. Seems to be staying at the moment

I don't understand why trades can occur during NBA playoffs. WTF?

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Damnit. Zeus is real though, right?

Ha ha.. you got me

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 07:26 PM

Watching Tyrese Maxey play well during the playoffs makes you realize how bad the Mavs blew the 2020 Draft. There are 3 All Rookie team players that were selected after the Mavs first pick. If we dont get any production from Josh et al next year this will officially be a bust.

mac222b · 06-18-2021, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

Watching Tyrese Maxey play well during the playoffs makes you realize how bad the Mavs blew the 2020 Draft. There are 3 All Rookie team players that were selected after the Mavs first pick. If we dont get any production from Josh et al next year this will officially be a bust.

I have faith in Josh, even if he was Harlabob’s choice. I said this before but Green has things that just can’t be taught. He can be an outstanding defender, rebounder and maybe even passer in this league. He works hard and he was a blue-chip top 10 recruit. He’s just young and inexperienced. The shot will come. Heck, Thybulle just got named 3rd team all Defense I think playing 20 minutes at game and he can’t shoot or pass or anything except defend. And Philly has made him near untouchable in trades it seems.

I like Maxey too. And Bey. I liked Precious. Poku looks great. Stewart looks legit. It was a really deep draft! Even McDaniels later looks like a steal.

Green would go top 10 in 2021 if he went back to AZ. Imagine he went back this season and made the leap Saddiq did and averaged 20 per game as the focal point. No way he’d last till 18 in this shallow draft. Look at it as we were able to buy low on an unfinished product. Whereas someone like Bey is much closer to his ceiling IMO.

I don’t think Green will ever be a star but he could be an all-defensive team type of guy in 4 years. But Bey or Bane or even Maxey probably never be all star types.

Poku and RJ Hampton are the guys that could someday be stars that we passed on. I think Hampton had some character issues and Poku didn’t have much tape against real comp so they slid. Would’ve been a great draft to have two picks like Detroit.

Bryan_Wilson · 06-18-2021, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I don't get all the Kidd bashing because of a mistake he made in life 15 years ago

Are you guys serious.....

Anyway, I prefer Mosley, Hammon or Jackson but I would have no problems with Kidd.

I think he would be really good with Luka in terms of developing him overall as a PG to reach full potential.

Luka in late game situations haven't been that great either and I think Kidd would help him take that next step in game management (late game turnovers/execution/shot selection)

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/23/1...ch-reasons-why
https://clutchpoints.com/nba-rumors-...-ex-colleague/
https://www.si.com/nba/knicks/nba/kn...idd-head-coach
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...such_an_awful/

Took me like 15 seconds to pick these out. That's how prevalent the narrative is for Kidd.

Here are just a few quotes...

Quote:

“I wouldn’t hire Jason Kidd if he was the last coach standing,’’ said an NBA source who has worked with Jason Kidd, via Marc Berman of the New York Post.

Quote:

“It would be a terrible choice. There’s a reason Milwaukee is in the place where they are right now — coaching.’’

Quote:

It will be interesting to see if Kidd gets another coaching job in the future. The NBA legend is one of the best point guards of all-time, but clearly he wasn’t the best coach to be around.

Quote:

As mentioned in Tuesday's Knicks Film School Newsletter, Milwaukee trended in the opposite direction on defense despite having solid personnel on that end of the court, including maybe the most versatile defender in the league, even a few years ago.

Quote:

“Last month, Malcolm Brogdon sat the first 20 minutes of a game against the Timberwolves with no prior indication he would be missing time early in the game.”

Quote:

“ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski reported one of the three reasons the Bucks decided to move on from Kidd was frayed relationships in the organization. Ryen Russillo added to that by reporting he wasn’t sure how much Kidd’s relationship with Jabari Parker factored into the decision, but he was told they were no longer speaking to one another. All of this aligns with frustrations Parker has expressed with ESPN Wisconsin in the past about finger pointing and a lack of positive reinforcement from Kidd.”

Quote:

Kidd may be the greatest pure point guard of his generation, but he also made his fair share of noise off the court, from butting heads with coaches to the assault allegations by his ex-wife to the drunk driving incident that occurred shortly after he became a Knick, and most recently, his attempt at a behind the scenes front office takeover in Brooklyn.

Hard Pass. It's way too risky.

mac222b · 06-18-2021, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/23/1...ch-reasons-why
https://clutchpoints.com/nba-rumors-...-ex-colleague/
https://www.si.com/nba/knicks/nba/kn...idd-head-coach
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...such_an_awful/

Took me like 15 seconds to pick these out. That's how prevalent the narrative is for Kidd.

Here are just a few quotes...

Hard Pass. It's way too risky.

Agree absolutely.

Melonhead · 06-18-2021, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/1/23/1...ch-reasons-why
https://clutchpoints.com/nba-rumors-...-ex-colleague/
https://www.si.com/nba/knicks/nba/kn...idd-head-coach
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...such_an_awful/

Took me like 15 seconds to pick these out. That's how prevalent the narrative is for Kidd.

Here are just a few quotes...

Hard Pass. It's way too risky.

Sheesh I remember the narrative at the time being bad, but that’s don’t touch with a 100 foot pole bad.

Murphy3 · 06-18-2021, 08:54 PM

So that Curry trade is looking pretty bad?

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

So that Curry trade is looking pretty bad?

How can we know? We are going to have to give it 5 years lol

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I have faith in Josh, even if he was Harlabob’s choice. I said this before but Green has things that just can’t be taught. He can be an outstanding defender, rebounder and maybe even passer in this league. He works hard and he was a blue-chip top 10 recruit. He’s just young and inexperienced. The shot will come. Heck, Thybulle just got named 3rd team all Defense I think playing 20 minutes at game and he can’t shoot or pass or anything except defend. And Philly has made him near untouchable in trades it seems.

I like Maxey too. And Bey. I liked Precious. Poku looks great. Stewart looks legit. It was a really deep draft! Even McDaniels later looks like a steal.

Green would go top 10 in 2021 if he went back to AZ. Imagine he went back this season and made the leap Saddiq did and averaged 20 per game as the focal point. No way he’d last till 18 in this shallow draft. Look at it as we were able to buy low on an unfinished product. Whereas someone like Bey is much closer to his ceiling IMO.

I don’t think Green will ever be a star but he could be an all-defensive team type of guy in 4 years. But Bey or Bane or even Maxey probably never be all star types.

Poku and RJ Hampton are the guys that could someday be stars that we passed on. I think Hampton had some character issues and Poku didn’t have much tape against real comp so they slid. Would’ve been a great draft to have two picks like Detroit.

RJ Hampton looks damn good...this draft was funny all we heard about from the "experts" was how "bad" it was......and I see a bunch of guys all through this draft that made impacts this year.

I disagree about Maxey. From what I see he could start RIGHT NOW for the Sixers....they are just committed to Simmons but if I had the choice of Simmons or Maxey....at least I know with Maxey he can go out there and close games...I have to sit Simmons because he can't hit free throws....

I'm biased on Maxey because he's from Garland but I thought he was one of the most talented prospects in this draft. I understood he had issues in college but the potential was always there.....

Bryan_Wilson · 06-18-2021, 09:16 PM

Only thing that looks bad with Seth trade for me is how bad JRich looked for us. I like Seth but IMO he fits perfectly with Philly. They Have Simmons, Harris, Embiid in the SL to cover for Seth. Here he'd be with Luka THJ and a slow footed KP. To me it's the perfect place for Seth I just hate with his contract he's worth a hell of a lot more than what we saw from JRich.

Edit- Side note... prolly belongs in around the league but w/e... Ben Simmons looks fkin terrible again.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

Watching Tyrese Maxey play well during the playoffs makes you realize how bad the Mavs blew the 2020 Draft. There are 3 All Rookie team players that were selected after the Mavs first pick. If we dont get any production from Josh et al next year this will officially be a bust.

Man if people are selling that Green is some defensive stopper....then he's already a worse pick than all of those guys. I'm not interested in defensive stoppers in a league where everyone scores 110 a night or more.

Bryan_Wilson · 06-18-2021, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I have faith in Josh, even if he was Harlabob’s choice. I said this before but Green has things that just can’t be taught. He can be an outstanding defender, rebounder and maybe even passer in this league. He works hard and he was a blue-chip top 10 recruit. He’s just young and inexperienced. The shot will come. Heck, Thybulle just got named 3rd team all Defense I think playing 20 minutes at game and he can’t shoot or pass or anything except defend. And Philly has made him near untouchable in trades it seems.

I like Maxey too. And Bey. I liked Precious. Poku looks great. Stewart looks legit. It was a really deep draft! Even McDaniels later looks like a steal.

Green would go top 10 in 2021 if he went back to AZ. Imagine he went back this season and made the leap Saddiq did and averaged 20 per game as the focal point. No way he’d last till 18 in this shallow draft. Look at it as we were able to buy low on an unfinished product. Whereas someone like Bey is much closer to his ceiling IMO.

I don’t think Green will ever be a star but he could be an all-defensive team type of guy in 4 years. But Bey or Bane or even Maxey probably never be all star types.

Poku and RJ Hampton are the guys that could someday be stars that we passed on. I think Hampton had some character issues and Poku didn’t have much tape against real comp so they slid. Would’ve been a great draft to have two picks like Detroit.

I keep forgetting Green is only 20 that's a good point. I was already hoping to see him a lot more next year and now even more so.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Maybe I’m missing something but why are people clamoring for Kidd. He was bad in Milwaukee and they underachieved. They ranked at the bottom in defense. And I want a players coach that players want to play for. He was not on good terms with some of the roster IIRC. He’s the opposite of someone like Mosley.

And yeah I never forget this part of him with domestic violence.

Man I Don't like nothing about Kidd.....He's been shady and I don't get what people see in him other than he's a Ex-Mav....

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I keep forgetting Green is only 20 that's a good point. I was already hoping to see him a lot more next year and now even more so.

Yeah I wasn't a fan of the pick but I wouldn't write him off. Its still early. He's young and has that going for him.

What sucks is that had we selected better like Bey, Bane, Maxey or Hampton......those pieces could've been a main piece to trade for a star player in a package.....

Zeus · 06-18-2021, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Man if people are selling that Green is some defensive stopper....then he's already a worse pick than all of those guys. I'm not interested in defensive stoppers in a league where everyone scores 110 a night or more.

You are absolutely correct! There is a purely mathematical reason for that. By any quantitative measure such as expected points added or saved there is a larger absolute deviation between the best offensive players vs replacement level players than on the defensive side of the equation. In other words the Luka's and Steph Curry's are more impactful with their offense than Simmons and Gobert are with their defense. If Green never shows any modicum of offensive prowess then a first round pick on him was likely wasted even if he is a lunch box hustler type.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Only thing that looks bad with Seth trade for me is how bad JRich looked for us. I like Seth but IMO he fits perfectly with Philly. They Have Simmons, Harris, Embiid in the SL to cover for Seth. Here he'd be with Luka THJ and a slow footed KP. To me it's the perfect place for Seth I just hate with his contract he's worth a hell of a lot more than what we saw from JRich.

Edit- Side note... prolly belongs in around the league but w/e... Ben Simmons looks fkin terrible again.

Seth is EXACTLY what Luka needs. A guy who can score without having to create his own shot.....

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

You are absolutely correct! There is a purely mathematical reason for that. By any quantitative measure such as expected points added or saved there is a larger absolute deviation between the best offensive players vs replacement level players than on the defensive side of the equation. In other words the Luka's and Steph Curry's are more impactful with their offense than Simmons and Gobert are with their defense. If Green never shows any modicum of offensive prowess then a first round pick on him was likely wasted even if he is a lunch box hustler type.

You're correct. We need Green to be solid on offense. We need him to be what we thought we were getting with Richardson.

Murphy3 · 06-18-2021, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

You are absolutely correct! There is a purely mathematical reason for that. By any quantitative measure such as expected points added or saved there is a larger absolute deviation between the best offensive players vs replacement level players than on the defensive side of the equation. In other words the Luka's and Steph Curry's are more impactful with their offense than Simmons and Gobert are with their defense. If Green never shows any modicum of offensive prowess then a first round pick on him was likely wasted even if he is a lunch box hustler type.

Very well said.

mac222b · 06-18-2021, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeus

You are absolutely correct! There is a purely mathematical reason for that. By any quantitative measure such as expected points added or saved there is a larger absolute deviation between the best offensive players vs replacement level players than on the defensive side of the equation. In other words the Luka's and Steph Curry's are more impactful with their offense than Simmons and Gobert are with their defense. If Green never shows any modicum of offensive prowess then a first round pick on him was likely wasted even if he is a lunch box hustler type.

I get what you’re saying— this playoff is proof that, like with the NFL, it’s all about offense. The rules are even skewed to ensure that. My rejoinder would be that switchable defenders, like Green profiles to be are still super valuable. He has a 6’10 reach and great vertical but great feet and is strong at 20 so could eventually potentially guard 1-4. That’s still hugely valuable.

mac222b · 06-18-2021, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

RJ Hampton looks damn good...this draft was funny all we heard about from the "experts" was how "bad" it was......and I see a bunch of guys all through this draft that made impacts this year.

I disagree about Maxey. From what I see he could start RIGHT NOW for the Sixers....they are just committed to Simmons but if I had the choice of Simmons or Maxey....at least I know with Maxey he can go out there and close games...I have to sit Simmons because he can't hit free throws....

I'm biased on Maxey because he's from Garland but I thought he was one of the most talented prospects in this draft. I understood he had issues in college but the potential was always there.....

I love Maxey he would’ve been a great pick. I just said I don’t see a future star. He could be. He may be a notch or two below that though. Depends on his shot.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I love Maxey he would’ve been a great pick. I just said I don’t see a future star. He could be. He may be a notch or two below that though. Depends on his shot.

I think the sky is the limit for him but yeah it’s early to say he will be a star. I’ve been really impressed by him I thought he’d have a tough tile adjusting to the game this year but he’s getting solid rotation minutes on the best team out East.

Dtownsfinest · 06-18-2021, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I get what you’re saying— this playoff is proof that, like with the NFL, it’s all about offense. The rules are even skewed to ensure that. My rejoinder would be that switchable defenders, like Green profiles to be are still super valuable. He has a 6’10 reach and great vertical but great feet and is strong at 20 so could eventually potentially guard 1-4. That’s still hugely valuable.

So what I’ve observed from these playoffs is that it’s more valuable to have your star players play adequate defense than it is for you to have a offensively challenged player who can play great defense….all of these playoff teams have good offensive players who just so happen to be able to play defense. I think the Nets might be the exception: