Mack Brown - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 10-14-2003, 11:29 AM

Why Mack Brown should be fired.... Since coming to, 27 schools have made it to BCS bowl games...UT is not one of them.

Why Mack Brown probably won't be fired.... He's under contract until 2011

DNNF · 10-14-2003, 11:52 AM

Does M. Brown 's contract said that he has to be a headcoach? He should step down and just be a recruiter. Greg Davis is the main one need to be fired. His play calling is too predictable.

Dooby · 10-14-2003, 11:56 AM

Whatever. Tom Osborne once lost to OU 7 years in row. Nebraska didn't fire Osborne. They were patient and he won a national championship. How many years went by before Bowden won a national championship?

Whatever sense of entitlement UT possesses, they need to get over it. UT didn't even go to a bowl game the year before Mack Brown came to UT. How many years did they not even crack the top 25? The notion that Mack Brown can recruit but not coach and thus must be fired is ludicrous. Before Mack Brown, the players weren't coming to UT. There is no guarantee they'll keep coming if he leaves.

The worst thing to happen to Mack Brown was Bob Stoops won a national championship in his second year. Frankly, I am not willing to hold that against him.

I'd agree that Brown needs to be fired if I thought he was hurting the program, but he's not. Last year, A&M was regressing; they had to make a change. If UT starts regressing, make a change. Till then, UT fan needs to mellow out.

DNNF · 10-14-2003, 12:03 PM

Didn't Ohio State Cooper got fired just because he can't beat Michigan?? I see Mack Brown will be fired if he can't beat OU again next year. Yes, Mack Brown has did a good job since he got to UT, but he can't get over OU, and that pissed off alot of alumni.

Either way, UT need get rid of Greg Davis.

grbh · 10-14-2003, 12:21 PM

Couldn't agree more Dooby. Everyone seems to forget where this program was before Brown came on board. Look at what they have done since 1984.

1984: 7-4-1 Unranked, Lost bowl game
1985: 8-4 Unranked, Lost bowl game
1986: 5-6, Unranked, Lost bowl game
1987: 7-5, Ranked 19, Won bowl game, bluebonnet bowl
1988: 4-7, Unranked, No bowl game
1989: 5-6, Unranked, No bowl game
1990: 10-2, Ranked 10, Lost bowl game
1991: 5-6, Unranked, No bowl game
1992: 6-5, Unranked, No bowl game
1993: 5-5-1, Unranked, No bowl game
1994: 8-4, Ranked 25th, Won bowl game, Sun Bowl
1995: 10-2-1, Ranked 14th, Lost bowl game
1996: 8-5, Ranked 23rd, Lost bowl game
1997: 4-7, Unranked, No bowl game

Mack Brown as coach
1998: 9-3, Ranked 15th, Won bowl game, Cotton Bowl
1999: 9-5, Ranked 21st, Lost bowl game
2000: 9-3, Ranked 12th, Lost bowl game
2001: 11-2, Ranked 5th, Won bowl game, Holiday Bowl
2002: 11-2, Ranked 6th, Won Bowl game, Cotton Bowl

Winning 5 1984-1997: 92-67 .578
Winning % 1998-2002: 49-15 .765

Bowl Wins 1984-1997: 2
Bowl Appearances: 8

Bowl Wins: 1998-2002: 3
Bowl Appearances: 5

I think a lot a casual fans, and I don't mean you Murphy, forget that Texas was a pitiful football program for 15 years before Mack came in as coach. The Horns had one top ten appearance in 1990. They were ranked as high as 3 that year, but got smacked around 49-3 in the Cotton bowl.

grbh · 10-14-2003, 12:24 PM

As far as not beating OU the last 4 years well that is clearly Bevo's fault.

Drbio · 10-14-2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Whatever. Tom Osborne once lost to OU 7 years in row. Nebraska didn't fire Osborne. They were patient and he won a national championship. How many years went by before Bowden won a national championship?

Whatever sense of entitlement UT possesses, they need to get over it. UT didn't even go to a bowl game the year before Mack Brown came to UT. How many years did they not even crack the top 25? The notion that Mack Brown can recruit but not coach and thus must be fired is ludicrous. Before Mack Brown, the players weren't coming to UT. There is no guarantee they'll keep coming if he leaves.

The worst thing to happen to Mack Brown was Bob Stoops won a national championship in his second year. Frankly, I am not willing to hold that against him.

I'd agree that Brown needs to be fired if I thought he was hurting the program, but he's not. Last year, A&M was regressing; they had to make a change. If UT starts regressing, make a change. Till then, UT fan needs to mellow out.

Genius. Truly Genius.

MavKikiNYC · 10-14-2003, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Last year, A&M was regressing; they had to make a change. If UT starts regressing, make a change. Till then, UT fan needs to mellow out.

Fair enough points, Dooby. And maybe that's what should happen.

But....

I think if he loses to A&M this year, he could well be gone. And a consolation win against A&M alone won't save him either.

I think that two more losses out of his next three games against OU and TAMU (over the next two seasons) will seal his fate.

And this, of course, is baseline. If the Horns' regression accelerates and they collapse this year (as opposed to merely disappointing), then he'll be gone sooner (no pun intended).

Fah Q · 10-14-2003, 01:26 PM

Let me ask you this.

What if UT loses to OSU?

What if UT loses to Nebraska?

How about A&M?

There are plenty more games that UT could lose, plus the 50 point beating last weekend.

Do you think Mack should be around if UT loses 4 games this season?

I just don't think a team with this much talent should lose these games but it could very easily happen.

Dooby · 10-14-2003, 01:31 PM

firemackbrown.com

Murphy3 · 10-14-2003, 01:33 PM

Brown is a great recruiter..but he's not worth a hill of beans as an in game coach.

No coach under utilizes the top players/athletes on his team more than Mack Brown. You would never know that Roy Williams is supposed to be a top 5-10 draft pick by watching any of the games...

no coach gets less out of the talent on the field than Brown. UT consistently posts top 5 recruiting classes only to see it go up in flames under the misguided directon of The Tobacco Road Con Man.

Sure, people could just be misjudging the talent that UT has brought in. However, unless basically everyone expert in the country has done so, that's simply not the case. I admit that this year UT isn't as talented as the past couple... they have some definite holes in certain areas, but the mismangement of talent was evident long before the start of this season.

GRBH, in all honesty, I think the reason why UT had poor teams for such a long time was because of the conference that they were in. The SWC was hanging on for dear life for much of that time. Texas athletes weren't interested in playing in the SWC anymore. UT joining the Big 12 probably has quite a bit to do with the Horns turnaround in recruiting.. but sure, so did the work of mack brown. But let's not forget that Brown came in with alot of young talent already at UT from the previous regime that just needed a little seasoning under their belt.

kg_veteran · 10-14-2003, 01:36 PM

Virtually every year we hear about what a great recruiting class the Longhorns had, and people predict great things for the Longhorns. Then Texas plays OU, and things start going south.

It may not be fair, but Brown has helped to create the expectations placed upon him by recruiting so well. I don't think the Longhorns had a chance against the Sooners this year, but in the past few years they have had their chances, and they haven't capitalized.

Everyone is judged in the sports world based on expectations vs. performance. We judge the Mavericks that way. Why should Mack Brown be any different? Should Longhorns fans be content if they just keep going to lesser bowls and perennially have a good record (the college football equivalent of "making the playoffs" in the NBA) ? Or should they expect more, given the tremendous recruiting classes?

I don't envy Brown with the pressure he has placed upon him, but I don't pity him either. He's well compensated for undergoing the scrutiny that he does.

Edit for typo

dirno2000 · 10-14-2003, 01:54 PM

If you think Mack should be fired who do you bring in? Who do you trust to not only maintain the program at its current level, but to take the next step? Be careful what you wish for, Ohio State got lucky with Tressell. Do you want to take a chance on a small college coach who knows the state (Gary Patterson from TCU)? Do you want to trust Mike Price on 6th street? There are not many coaches out there that you can bring to Austin and say "I know this is my guy". Until they find that person, they need to keep Mack Brown. He’s rallied the team in the face of adversity before, and I expect him to do it this year.

Dooby · 10-14-2003, 01:58 PM

Well, since I went headfirst into this, I'll keep going. First, let me get this out of the way. I did not go to UT, A&M or OU, or any Big 12 School, but I always root for Texas.

The only way UT loses to OSU is in a bowl game. OSU is Ohio State. Oklahoma State is Oklahoma State and Oklahoma State is not OSU, just as Miami (Ohio) is not Miami. Lots of folks can argue about UT being Tennessee or Texas, but I digress.

If UT loses 4 games, then they lose 4 games. If this team loses out, I still keep Mack Brown. And, by the way, so will UT. In order for you to convince me to fire Mack Brown (and it can be done, BTW), you have to show me regression. Are the players still coming? Yes. Are the tickets still being sold? Yes. Are the boosters leaving? No.

UT lost a few games. Yeah. So what? If they start losing to the teams they are supposed to beat on a regular (not consistent) basis over a period of years, then fire Mack Brown.

UT lost to OU. I have news for you. So will everybody else.

UT lost to Arkansas. I have news for you. Shit happens. OU lost to Oklahoma State last year. A&M once lost to a Louisiana directional school.

I think it is funny that over at firemackbrown.com, they have a picture of UT AD Deloss (sp?) Dodds with the caption "Don't look at me, he was the alumni's choice." Funny. I recall that there was once a plane flying around Austin during a game demanding the firing of both Mackovic and Dodds. I also recall that Texas interviewed 2 serious candidates for the UT football job: Mack Brown and Gary Barnett. Dodds really wanted Barnett (mainly because Barnett was the big name), but Royal convinced the search committee to hire Brown. While I concede that Gary Barnett beat Mack Brown once, Gary Barnett would have been an unmitigated disaster at UT.

Why do people bitch about Texas not winning a national championship in a year that they don't expect Texas to win a national championship?

When I worked in politics I learned an important maxim, and it is one of the reasons I am not in politics any more. Listen to me and commit this to memory: "PEOPLE BITCH". That is it. People bitch. people like to bitch. They bitch about the things they can't control; they bitch about the things they can control. When they are thirsty, they bitch about not having any water. If you give them water, they bitch about it not being cold. If you give them ice water, they bitch about not having any shade. Mack Brown gave the Texas fans an air-conditioned bar with plenty of beer on tap, and the peon UT fans are bitching about there not being a Steppenwolf CD in the jukebox.

DNNF · 10-14-2003, 02:09 PM

This should be a tribute to Mack Brown next year. Just substitute Cooper for Mack brown and Michigan for OU.

A Tribute to Former OSU Coach John Cooper

What can we say about John Cooper? Rarely has an opposing coach done so much for the Wolverines. It's not that there haven't been coaches who have had terrible records against Michigan. But Coach Cooper- he was special. He seemed to beat everybody else except Michigan. Even though John Cooper was was such a friend to the Wolverines he couldn't even get a break from Wolverine Fans. In a UMGoBlue.COM poll only 65% of Wolverine fans voted to enshrine John Cooper as a Wolverine Immortal. A good percentage but not enough for induction among the Wolverine Elite.

So here we give John Cooper his due. John Cooper went 111-43-4 during his stay at Ohio State. He had a .703 winning percentage against all opponents while managing only a .153 winning percentage against arch-rival Michigan. Twice his teams ended up ranked #2 in the nation, both times being tripped up by teams from the State of Michigan.

In the end, Cooper was fired for not being able to beat Michigan. Ironically, he was hired partly because it was believed that he could and would beat Michigan. Prior to being hired at OSU, Cooper had lead Arizona State to a 22-15 victory over the Wolverines in the 1986 Rose Bowl.

Six times OSU ended their season with a loss to Michigan followed by a loss in their bowl game. As much as Cooper tried to treat the Michigan game "...as just another game..." it was obvious that is was much more than that. Michigan fans could count on beating the Buckeyes and then watching as the Buckeyes self-destructed in their bowl game. Losing to Michigan became routine. Cooper only managed 2-10-1 record versus Michigan and had a paltry 3-8 bowl record.

So John Cooper we salute you! Michigan may have beaten you like a rented mule but you were an original. You will be missed.

kg_veteran · 10-14-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

UT lost a few games. Yeah. So what? If they start losing to the teams they are supposed to beat on a regular (not consistent) basis over a period of years, then fire Mack Brown.

I agree with this rationale. So, in your opinion, should the Longhorns have beaten the Sooners at least once during the past few years?

Dooby · 10-14-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Quote:

UT lost a few games. Yeah. So what? If they start losing to the teams they are supposed to beat on a regular (not consistent) basis over a period of years, then fire Mack Brown.

I agree with this rationale. So, in your opinion, should the Longhorns have beaten the Sooners at least once during the past few years?

Well, if I am not mistaken, UT was favored the 3 years leading up to this one. And you would think that UT could have one one of those years. But I mean "supposed to" on a game by game business. But I guess if you are favored, you are "supposed to" win. Still, OU beats everybody. Losing to OU just doesn't bother me on a football or emotional level.

While I see the "But you wanted [name omitted to keep things on point] canned" argument on the horizon, I just think it is apples and oranges. Brown elevated the UT program, and while I see evidence that they have plateaued, I don't think they are about to lapse in to perenial barely top-25 mediocrity. The question is whether Mack Brown can move the team forward or not. I, personally, think he can. And I don't think it hurts to wait and see. If I thought there was a risk in waiting, I'd be in favor of firing him.

kg_veteran · 10-14-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

While I see the "But you wanted [name omitted to keep things on point] canned" argument on the horizon, I just think it is apples and oranges.

Actually, I'm not going to hammer you with logic on this one, because I tend to agree with you. There are substantial differences.

Quote:

Brown elevated the UT program, and while I see evidence that they have plateaued, I don't think they are about to lapse in to perenial barely top-25 mediocrity. The question is whether Mack Brown can move the team forward or not. I, personally, think he can. And I don't think it hurts to wait and see. If I thought there was a risk in waiting, I'd be in favor of firing him.

I think with Brown there, they are perenially a Top 10-15 team -- not a bad place to be. I also think it often takes a while for a program to take the next step in college football, particularly when you're talking about reaching true national championship contender level. If I were a Texas fan, I'd be willing to give him some time to see if he can get it done.

Murphy3 · 10-14-2003, 04:13 PM

One thing that hurst Brown and the Horns is the high amount of blow outs that they've suffered. In many big games, they haven't even been competitive since brown joined UT. They've been hammered by KSU, Arkansas, and OU twice (with a game against UCLA that wasn't quite as close as the double digit deficit indicated).

Plus, losing to Tech twice..to NC State, Stanford, A&M, Oregon and colorado didn't necessarily endure him to anyone. The Colorado game was for a shot to possibly play in the Championship game..but, of course, the Horns didn't show up until it was entirely too late.

Sure, some of the losses are perfectly understandable. Anyone could lose to OU. But, most programs would at least show up a little more often. And yeah, KSU has had a good team at times over the past few years. But, did UT show up for that game? There's no fault in losing to Nebraska but is there any excuse for getting hammered by Arkansas in 99?

I don't know. It really appears that Mack Brown is incapable of getting his team up for the big games. The team plays with no urgency or heart. Hell, maybe they could use Eddie Najera. The Horns have had too many games where they've just given up.

dallas_esq · 10-14-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dirno2000
If you think Mack should be fired who do you bring in? Who do you trust to not only maintain the program at its current level, but to take the next step? Be careful what you wish for, Ohio State got lucky with Tressell. Do you want to take a chance on a small college coach who knows the state (Gary Patterson from TCU)? Do you want to trust Mike Price on 6th street? There are not many coaches out there that you can bring to Austin and say "I know this is my guy". Until they find that person, they need to keep Mack Brown. He’s rallied the team in the face of adversity before, and I expect him to do it this year.

Mike Price on 6th St.- could be a good match. I would take Price and so would the old guard if he would BEAT OU! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img]

steponhens · 10-14-2003, 06:07 PM

I believe if Mack Brown doesn't beat OU next year he will be fired. It's not just the fact that he loses to OU it's that they get blown out by them. Twice in the last 4-5 it has been about 50 point blowouts. Cooper at least made games close against Michigan. When you get top recruiting classes every year you should never lose to anybody by 50 points. Even when the games against OU were close you just knew they were going to lose. The coach has shown no balls ever since he has showed up, and with a school that wants to win the national championship every year it is not acceptable to lose to OU every year and hope they lose two games to play for the Big 12 title.

As far as replacements for the job, there are always good coaches to get. Some that come to mind are the Pitt head coach Walt Harris, NIU head coach Joe Novak, Iowa Head coach Kirk Ferentz, or the South Florida coach. When your as big a football school as Texas and in such a recruiting hotbed as Texas coaches will come to your school. I'm sure they could get almost anybody they wanted.

dallas_esq · 10-14-2003, 06:11 PM

I thought Texas pulled the trigger on Machovich too soon. His teams never COMPLETELY FAILED TO SHOW UP the way Brown's teams do. I think the writing is on the wall. I am calling for his head immediately, and let's get someone in here who can start to do something with these boys. If only we could clone Bill Parcells.

Oh, and I don't think Brown will recruit very well this year after apologizing for being a bad coach, he should be fired for that alone. If your doctor told you he was a bad doctor, would you keep going to him?

XERXES · 10-14-2003, 10:25 PM

I have a name for Texas to consider when (and if) they do consider replacing the "Tobacco Road Conman:"

Mike Stoops.

One of the best assistants would only make the Red River Shootout that much more interesting.

QCarFan · 10-14-2003, 11:07 PM

good point, and I agree it would definitely make the Red River Shootout much more interested with B. Stoops going against M. Stoops.

Drbio · 10-14-2003, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dallas_esq
I thought Texas pulled the trigger on Machovich too soon. His teams never COMPLETELY FAILED TO SHOW UP the way Brown's teams do. I think the writing is on the wall. I am calling for his head immediately, and let's get someone in here who can start to do something with these boys. If only we could clone Bill Parcells.

Oh, and I don't think Brown will recruit very well this year after apologizing for being a bad coach, he should be fired for that alone. If your doctor told you he was a bad doctor, would you keep going to him?

Are you sniffing glue? Makovich just got fired in Arizona for raping their program the way he raped UT's.

jayC · 10-15-2003, 09:37 AM

I hear dooby that the longhorns weren't a perenial ranked team before brown. But at the same time when is the last time the had two blowouts at the hands of their top rival for the national championship OU. When is the last time they beat a top 10 opponent its been a while. And about recruits Texas before Mack Brown was ranked as high as number five and got pummeled by UCLA 66-3. OU was perhaps in worse shape with john blake as the head coach and two years later OU is national champions. I just don't see Mack Brown as a guy that can take the Longhorns to the next level.

dallas_esq · 10-15-2003, 10:41 AM

Voting on firemackbrown.com has Brown being fired by a very slight margin. 52-48%. Brown still has some supporters out there.

Murphy3 · 10-15-2003, 10:48 AM

45% of the 48% voting to keep brown are Oklahoma fans..
1%'s people from Florida that got confused
1% can be attributed to the 'hanging chad' phenomenon
1%'s mack brown and his friends and family

dallas_esq · 10-15-2003, 11:41 AM

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

To quote the greatness of the Godfather, Mack, you're out. I say he's gone at the end of the season. Texas can afford to buy out his "contract."

jmiles65 · 10-15-2003, 04:09 PM

Keep Mack.
He makes the longhorns suck, and I love it when the Longhorns suck.