Fortson Breaks Zarko's Wrist....

[grndmstr_c]

What in god's name makes you think Cuban and the Mavericks want this team to have a thug mentality. Is it because Mark has stated that he thought the flagrant 2 was the right call? Or maybe you think that because Nellie came out and publicly apologized to the Suns, calling it a bad play and saying that he doesn't condone that type of thing. Come on. That's ridiculous. Neither Cuban, nor Nellie, nor anybody else on the team is interested in injuring other players. Was Fortson brought here in part to give good hard fouls? Absolutely. Is there anyone in the Mavericks organization who feels that what Fortson did was a good hard foul? No. All indications are that everyone feels it was a bad foul that shouldn't have been given.

As to intent and the analogies that are being tossed around, a stupid and thoughtless foul without the intent to injure and punching someone in the face are nothing alike. I can't even believe that someone would suggest that the two are alike. The former requires only a second's lapse of concentration. The latter happens only when there are malicious intentions. The difference implied here is huge. As to the counterargument that the results were in this case not so different from what might have occured if Fotson had wanted to injure Zarko, that doesn't fly. No one would ever claim that the elbow that Pippen took from Nowitzki the other night was the equivalent of Dirk punching Scottie in the face, though the outcome was virtually identical. Why? Because there was no intent to injure on Dirk's part. The same logic applies here.

And the contention that this incident is cause enough to conclude that Fortson has a "depraved heart" is nothing short of ridiculous. Please, let's leave the melodrama to the Suns.

[dallas_esq]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
What in god's name makes you think Cuban and the Mavericks want this team to have a thug mentality. Is it because Mark has stated that he thought the flagrant 2 was the right call? Or maybe you think that because Nellie came out and publicly apologized to the Suns, calling it a bad play and saying that he doesn't condone that type of thing. Come on. That's ridiculous. Neither Cuban, nor Nellie, nor anybody else on the team is interested in injuring other players. Was Fortson brought here in part to give good hard fouls? Absolutely. Is there anyone in the Mavericks organization who feels that what Fortson did was a good hard foul? No. All indications are that everyone feels it was a bad foul that shouldn't have been given.

As to intent and the analogies that are being tossed around, a stupid and thoughtless foul without the intent to injure and punching someone in the face are nothing alike. I can't even believe that someone would suggest that the two are alike. The former requires only a second's lapse of concentration. The latter happens only when there are malicious intentions. The difference implied here is huge. As to the counterargument that the results were in this case not so different from what might have occured if Fotson had wanted to injure Zarko, that doesn't fly. No one would ever claim that the elbow that Pippen took from Nowitzki the other night was the equivalent of Dirk punching Scottie in the face, though the outcome was virtually identical. Why? Because there was no intent to injure on Dirk's part. The same logic applies here.

And the contention that this incident is cause enough to conclude that Fortson has a "depraved heart" is nothing short of ridiculous. Please, let's leave the melodrama to the Suns.

As I said already, you cannot seperate intended acts from intended consequences. If a person intends an act, and that person is of a reasonable mind- here, the mind is that of the reasonable NBA player, which is something you guys know more about than me, THEN the person intends the natural and probable consequences of his act. I haven't yet seen a decent argument that the consequences of what Fortson did were not reasonably foreseeable by an NBA player. Clearly there is a rule against said behavior. So if he does behavior which is illegal and he knows or should know of certain foreseeable consequences, then he acts with willful disregard. Depraved heart is putting it strongly. How about, conscious disregard? Same difference, it's malicious on it's face. Remember, we are dealing with the mind of NBA player who should know what type of thing can happen when someone is in the air going toward the basket and they get fouled like that. Best person to judge that is not me.

As for Cuban's role in all of this, I think that if he is somehow on notice that Fortson is a thug, as Madape has alleged that he has this "reputation," then Cuban is guilty of wanting a thug on his team and now condoning the behavior to do damage control. I'm asking Madape to tell us when are the other instances of thug behavior as I have not been able to turn up any further info on this.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: dallas_esq

This poster understands intent better than most. When people act they may not intend to bring about a certain injury but they intend to bring about the natural consequences of their acts. No one is questioning whether he intended to do the act, just whether he intended the consequences. We cannot seperate these two. We say that if an act done has reasonably foreseeable consequences, then the actor knew or should have known about those consequences, and therefore acted with at least a wilfull disregard of those consequences, a depraved heart. See Palsgraff the standard for determining the causal nexus between acts and consequences. This is how we determine fault. If we say that Fortson intended the act then Fortson knew or should have known what he was doing could cause this injury.

According to the venerable Madape, Fortson has made a career of this. Could you cite other instances for us please? I still think based on Cuban's reaction that the Mavericks want some "thug-like" play. Fortson was brought here for just this type of thing. It is regrettable to me that the Mavs might condone this type of thug play. I could hold Cuban to the same causal standard as above and say that by bringing Fortson here, he knew this type of thing could happen. Is this the philosophy we really want? Is this just tough basketball? Is it OK if people get attacked in the air while defenseless like an NFL receiver? Think about it people.

No it's not okay but you know what? The hell with what Fortson has done in the previous years(Which BTW I don't recall any intentional injury to players is apart of his future). All I can do is go by what he has done as a Mav and that is rebound. It happens in sports. It's unfortunate but it happens. Just like your analogy of a reciever getting hit in the air by a safety or a cornerback. Woody has done it. Actually he has done it more than 1 time in his career. I don't hear anyone calling him a thug. Fortson may be a thug. I could careless of what he is I just know that for a guy who intentionally wantedt o hurt a guy he apologized afterwards. I guess Fortson and this guy have some sort of past that we all don't know a bout. Get real people. Quit overreacting. Fortson has been great to us this season. Don't let one situation kill the way you think of a player. When Fortson was brought to this team he was already disliked by many and it's showing here.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: dallas_esq

This poster understands intent better than most. When people act they may not intend to bring about a certain injury but they intend to bring about the natural consequences of their acts. No one is questioning whether he intended to do the act, just whether he intended the consequences. We cannot seperate these two. We say that if an act done has reasonably foreseeable consequences, then the actor knew or should have known about those consequences, and therefore acted with at least a wilfull disregard of those consequences, a depraved heart. See Palsgraff the standard for determining the causal nexus between acts and consequences. This is how we determine fault. If we say that Fortson intended the act then Fortson knew or should have known what he was doing could cause this injury.

According to the venerable Madape, Fortson has made a career of this. Could you cite other instances for us please? I still think based on Cuban's reaction that the Mavericks want some "thug-like" play. Fortson was brought here for just this type of thing. It is regrettable to me that the Mavs might condone this type of thug play. I could hold Cuban to the same causal standard as above and say that by bringing Fortson here, he knew this type of thing could happen. Is this the philosophy we really want? Is this just tough basketball? Is it OK if people get attacked in the air while defenseless like an NFL receiver? Think about it people.

You don't accidently punch someone in the face. That's insane. What Fortson did wasn't intentional. If you punch soemone in the face it is intentional. Simple as that. Completely different analogies.

[dallas_esq]

You don't have to subscribe to the "punched in the face" analogy to establish that Fortson knew or should have known that his INTENTIONAL act could cause this injury. I am not judging the guy either way. I'm just saying that if the average NBA player should know this could cause an injury of this type, and the likelihood of that was high enough, that what Fortson did is wrong. Whether or not someone is a "thug" can only be judged by what an NBA player should do in similar circumstances.

The NFL analogy is a bad one also. In the NFL, hitting a defenseless receiver is not illegal. No one here has said that what Fortson did was legal. But fouling is obviously part of this game of basketball. So we have this impossible to define line between flagrant foul and "thug."

[dude1394]

As long as the NBA glorifies the HARD FOUL this stuff will happen. End of story. I still haven't seen it but from what I read it was an attempt at a hard foul gone awry. And sure nellie/cubes doesn't want this, nor do I, but I find it hypocritical for all the fans/media/etc. to constantly talk about how the mavs need an "enforcer" because they are soft and when someone fills that role, he is villified.

I say look in the mirror, most of this stuff happens because the fan/league/tv wants it to.

[grndmstr_c]

The person intends what the person intends. If you think that the human mind is, in general, aware of all possible outcomes of every action that person takes, and furthermore that people are capable of accurately weighing the probablilities associated with these various outcomes, then I have to tell you that you are giving people a little too much credit. The brain doesn't work that way even under ideal circumstances, much less when a person is having to react to the speed and upredictability of an NBA game. Fortson intended to stop Cabarkapa from scoring. He went about it very poorly not because he was intending all of the "natural and probable consequences" of his actions, but because his intentions and apprehensions did not extend beyond the recognition that he was out of position and wanted to stop Zarko from scoring. Neither I, nor anyone else, I hope, is arguing that Fortson should be excused for this inexcusable carelessness. The point of my argument is that Fortson did not intend to injure Cabarkapa (IMO), and therefore that all the head-hunting, name-calling and analogies that suggest otherwise are in error.

[sike]

he got three games...love him or hate him...but one way or another, let it go!....the league handed out the punishment they deemed worthy.....certainly they are better judges of this action than you or I...bad play? yes....hate him for life if you want? sure...let it go? please!

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: dude1394
As long as the NBA glorifies the HARD FOUL this stuff will happen. End of story. I still haven't seen it but from what I read it was an attempt at a hard foul gone awry. And sure nellie/cubes doesn't want this, nor do I, but I find it hypocritical for all the fans/media/etc. to constantly talk about how the mavs need an "enforcer" because they are soft and when someone fills that role, he is villified.

I say look in the mirror, most of this stuff happens because the fan/league/tv wants it to.

Well If you didn't see it then you really can't make a decision as to wether it was a "good hard foul" or not. There was certainly nothing good or hard about it. Fortson had no chance to make a play on the ball, and he didn't just bump him with his body, he lazily reached over and shoved the guy in midair. This is not what a legitimate "enforcer" does. If this is all Fortson has in his defensive bag then he is not an "enforcer". How can you "enforce" from the locker room? When Shaq or other teams look at this highlight they will not be thinking "Wow those Mavs are looking tough now. I'm afraid to play them. How will we score with the Potato patroling the lane?" Most likely Shaq will give Fortson a few extra elbows to the chops for it.


GrandmasterC: I think the point is that he didn't care what was going to happen to Zarko. He wasn't simply trying to stop a bucket. He was taking out his frustrations on someone. Just because he isn't thinking about the possible outcomes doesn't mean he isn't aware that his actions are reckless.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: sike
he got three games...love him or hate him...but one way or another, let it go!....the league handed out the punishment they deemed worthy.....certainly they are better judges of this action than you or I...bad play? yes....hate him for life if you want? sure...let it go? please!

You have a link you can post Sike?

[dallas_esq]

Fortson suspension officially 3 games.

[grndmstr_c]

GrandmasterC: I think the point is that he didn't care what was going to happen to Zarko. He wasn't simply trying to stop a bucket. He was taking out his frustrations on someone. Just because he isn't thinking about the possible outcomes doesn't mean he isn't aware that his actions are reckless.

Your first point isn't that far from my point, which is that he just wasn't thinking. The taking out frustration thing I just don't think played that big a part. I've seen it from a number of different angles now, and his movements don't look to me like the movements of someone who's taking out his frustrations. They aren't focused or directed enough. My impression was that when Fortson initially put his arms out he was thinking that Zarko would meet him more straight on. Danny's arms were already fully extended when the two made contact, and Danny didn't react properly (ie., didn't back off) when Zarko went to jump around Danny. I'll say again that I don't think that makes it okay. I just think it makes it something other than thuggery.

[madape]

To shed a little light on this wonderful player we've traded for:

In the 2001-02, Forton's last full season of play, he committed 8 flagrant fouls, exceeding the league mandated minimum point total by three. He was suspended without pay twice for a total of four games. If this is the first time he's caused a major injury, it is nothing short of a miracle. I've seen him hack, and foul and shove without regard for anyone's safety. He's the definition of a thug in this league.

His dirty play and bad attitude were some of the biggest reasons he played himself out of the Warriors's favor. Reading Mark Cuban's rediculous post-game comments infuriate me. He's a comple hypocrit. Hours before the game, he made a speech to Phoenix season ticket holders condeming rough play as players. Every time Dirk gets hit on the wrist he whines about how the league isn't doing enough to punish rough play. However, now he's basically dismissing any criticism of Forton's blatant cheap shot on Cabarkaba. I am disgusted with his public treatment of this issue.

If the Mavericks choose not do do anything beyond accepting the NBA mandated suspension, it will be clear to me what their intentions on the matter are. What they will be saying is that it is OK in to put a goon like Forton on the court who plays to hurt people. To me, this is not a trivial foul. It is another chapter in a long history of thuggish behavior from a player that hardly deserves playing time in the first place. I do not want my favorite team to get the reputation of a dirty team. I don't like the double-speak from our hypocritical owner. I don't think "hard fouls" are good for the game.

I think we all need to take a step back and see the big picture. What is the right thing to do here? In my opinion, we need to leave this ugly mess behind us and get back to playing Maverick basketball. If that's too "soft" for you, go be a fan of the Blazers. They need all the fans they can get.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

Well If you didn't see it then you really can't make a decision as to wether it was a "good hard foul" or not. There was certainly nothing good or hard about it. Fortson had no chance to make a play on the ball, and he didn't just bump him with his body, he lazily reached over and shoved the guy in midair. This is not what a legitimate "enforcer" does. If this is all Fortson has in his defensive bag then he is not an "enforcer". How can you "enforce" from the locker room? When Shaq or other teams look at this highlight they will not be thinking "Wow those Mavs are looking tough now. I'm afraid to play them. How will we score with the Potato patroling the lane?" Most likely Shaq will give Fortson a few extra elbows to the chops for it.


GrandmasterC: I think the point is that he didn't care what was going to happen to Zarko. He wasn't simply trying to stop a bucket. He was taking out his frustrations on someone. Just because he isn't thinking about the possible outcomes doesn't mean he isn't aware that his actions are reckless.

I never attempted to say definitively whether it was a "good hard foul" or not. Just that from what I have read that's my impression. But it still doesn't contradict my point that the nba/this board/the fans/the media/the players all talk about the "hard foul". It's a constant. To tell you the truth I would be more than on-board with fortson being thrown out for the year if it was deemed that flagrant. BUT ONLY if the same thing had happened to shaq for throwing a punch, artest last year, etc.,etc. Either stop it from happening or quit whining about it. It looks like the NBA has decided that 3 games is plenty. But then again you and I both know that Fortson is right now being touted as someone whom it is not so smart to come flying through the lane when he is there. If the LEAGUE wants' to get rid of it they can but the fans really, kinda sorta like it. You know hard foul and all.

[LRB]

I've had the opinion for years that if a player commits a flagrant foul that causes injury to the player, the committer of the fould should be suspended until the injured player recovers from his injury. If the injury is severe enought to be career ending, then the committer should be suspended for life. This would cut way down on the rough play. I'm sorry that one of the Mavs did this. And Fortson probably didn't mean to hurt Zarko, but he should still be suspended until Zarko is well.

[dude1394]

I see no reason to wait until the injury is ascertained, I really don't see how that is relevant with respect to intent? If you want to stop it, then stop it. It's just like fighting in hockey. They really don't want to stop it so they don't.

[FreshJive]

GrandmasterC: We will just have to agree to disagree. I just watched it again several times and there is zero percent chance that Fortson did not intentionally mean to take Zarko's legs out from under him. Fortson did not jump straight up but leaned out to meet Zarko and alot of his arm extension happened after he touched Zarko. Fortson's enitire motion throughout the play suggested that his initial intent was to shove Zarko with both hands, so as to knock him out of the air.

[FreshJive]

Dude: You make good points, Dude. The NBA can hardly hand out long suspensions with the way they have treated things in the past. And I and many other fans like a hard foul sometimes. This is especially true for me if I feel like the other team is asking for it (example: Malone and his elbows). However, what Fortson did does not qualify as a good hard foul. All he did was shove a guy. A ten year old can knock someone out of the air. Fortson didn't even put a body on the guy or make in attempt at the ball.

[Evilmav2]

Geez, this thread is running around in circles... Yes, Fortson committed a class 2 flagrant foul on Zarko that broke his wrist. No, Fortson did not intend to do anything more than prevent Zarko from going up and dunking the ball in transition, but an unfortunate combination of Zarko taking off in flight and Fortson trying to stop the layup brought about the accident.

Fortson is being duly punished, in accordance with the way the NBA has dealt with these kinds of fouls in the past, but he is not going to be traded away or kept on the end of the bench for oblivion (see Mark Cuban's comments on the matter if you don't believe this).

Fortson made a bad mistake- a mistake that I would not defend him for making if I thought this intentions were malicious- and he is being punished for it. Hysterics and polemics aside, this unfortunate story is for all intents and purposes over.

I feel bad for Zarko, but Fortson didn't mean to hurt him, and I think Frank Johnson should share a bit of responsibility in the injury since it was his decision to leave him, Marbury, Joe Johnson, and Stoudemire out on the court show-timing against our reserves with a 30 point lead and 3 minutes to go in the game. If Nelson had left Dirk, Nash, Finley, and A-squared in until the end of the Bulls game, and Dirk got hurt during that time, you can sure as hell believe that Mavs fans would be calling for Big Don's head for pointlessly risking the injury. I think Johnson's unclassy move of keeping his big guns in until the end of wednesday's game shares a similar culpability.

[madape]

Are you really levelling blame on Frank Johnson for playing his developing rookie in the fourth quarter of a blowout? As if Zarko DESERVED what he got because Johnson broke some unwritten law about pulling his star players late in a game? That's horsecrap. In fact, to state that the results was deserved is to imply that the act was intentional. And I don't care how "unclassy" it may have seemed to you, allowing Fortson to bully and hack defensless players in a blowout is infinitely more "unclassy". It's downright deplorable.

The Mavericks have a chance here to do the right thing.. to send a message to the league and their fans that they are not the kind of organization that allows this crap to go on. From what I've heard of Cuban, it appears that morality and ethical behaviour are pretty far down their list of priorities. It's a shame. I just hope Fortson doesn't seriosly hurt any more players in the name of "a good hard foul", or whatever else we're calling a hacking cheap-shot these days.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I've come to the conclusion that if Zarko wouldn't have fell on his wrist we wouldn't even have a thread about this. It would just be another flagrant foul. The guy shouldn't be suspended anymore than what the league gave him. He screwed up. He is a rough neck type player.

[Evilmav2]

No... I meant that playing your best players in the waning moments of a blowout needlessly exposes them to injury- regardless of how it happens.

And I don't say this to justify Fortson's foul, but Frank Johnson's decision to play all of his starters against our scrubs (who came in at the end of the 3rd quarter), was both unclassy, and it was a contributing factor in the injury- both because it exposed Zarko (and Stoudemire, and Marbury, and Joe Johnson) to unnecessary injuries, and because consciously running up the score in a blowout game can lead to bad blood on the court.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I've come to the conclusion that if Zarko wouldn't have fell on his wrist we wouldn't even have a thread about this. It would just be another flagrant foul. The guy shouldn't be suspended anymore than what the league gave him. He screwed up. He is a rough neck type player.

How is what he did in any way roughneckish? Its like walking up to a random person, kicking him in the balls, beating the shit out of him when he is on the ground, and then proclaiming, "Ha! I kicked that guy's ass. Don't F with me!"

[LRB]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I see no reason to wait until the injury is ascertained, I really don't see how that is relevant with respect to intent? If you want to stop it, then stop it. It's just like fighting in hockey. They really don't want to stop it so they don't.

If the NBA wanted to stop it they would force Karl Malone to retire right now. Almost every game Malone plays is full of dirty tactics which cause a serious risk to his opponents. But there is no way in hell that David Stern would every dream of ending the Mailman's career or even forcing him to clean up his game. Bottom line is that David Stern wants this type of play to happen. It's here because he chooses for it to be here and will be here until he chooses not to. It's OK for on player to end another players career with a thugish foul. It's not OK for the NBA to end a players career for committing the thugish fouls repetively.

Bottom line is Fortson was only playing within the unofficial rules as constructed and maintained by David Stern. I think the rules suck.

Personally I wish Cuban would protest the stupid rules by calling a press conference and signing Danny Fortson to a huge 1 year extention and cite his propensity to commit flagrant fouls and hurt opposing teams players as the ONLY reason that this is happening. Spit right in Stern's face.

And I'll stand by my thoughts that if it was up to me that a player committing a flagrant foul would risk ending his career if the player he fouled recieved a career ending injury. Players would be a lot less likely to rish their own careers just to show how tough they are. A few games suspension is nothing. I remember when Loren Myer broke Cedric Ceballos' wrists. I was pissed. But this is how David Stern wants it to be. Players should be rewarded for committing the thugish foul.

[grndmstr_c]

A quote from Fortson:

"It was just a bad play. It was awful," he said. "I didn't mean to hurt the guy. By the time I put my hands on him, he was flying through the air. I was totally surprised by that, and as soon as I did it I knew there was a chance it could be ugly."

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

How is what he did in any way roughneckish? Its like walking up to a random person, kicking him in the balls, beating the shit out of him when he is on the ground, and then proclaiming, "Ha! I kicked that guy's ass. Don't F with me!"

I didn't say what he did was roughneckish I said he was a rough neck type player.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: LRB

If the NBA wanted to stop it they would force Karl Malone to retire right now. Almost every game Malone plays is full of dirty tactics which cause a serious risk to his opponents. But there is no way in hell that David Stern would every dream of ending the Mailman's career or even forcing him to clean up his game. Bottom line is that David Stern wants this type of play to happen. It's here because he chooses for it to be here and will be here until he chooses not to. It's OK for on player to end another players career with a thugish foul. It's not OK for the NBA to end a players career for committing the thugish fouls repetively.

Bottom line is Fortson was only playing within the unofficial rules as constructed and maintained by David Stern. I think the rules suck.

Personally I wish Cuban would protest the stupid rules by calling a press conference and signing Danny Fortson to a huge 1 year extention and cite his propensity to commit flagrant fouls and hurt opposing teams players as the ONLY reason that this is happening. Spit right in Stern's face.

And I'll stand by my thoughts that if it was up to me that a player committing a flagrant foul would risk ending his career if the player he fouled recieved a career ending injury. Players would be a lot less likely to rish their own careers just to show how tough they are. A few games suspension is nothing. I remember when Loren Myer broke Cedric Ceballos' wrists. I was pissed. But this is how David Stern wants it to be. Players should be rewarded for committing the thugish foul.

It seems as if you are blowing this way out of porportion. I think thugish fouls are the last thing the league is hurting from. I think the refs are what we all should be debating here. Not that Stern wants to hurt players intentionally.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
A quote from Fortson:

"It was just a bad play. It was awful," he said. "I didn't mean to hurt the guy. By the time I put my hands on him, he was flying through the air. I was totally surprised by that, and as soon as I did it I knew there was a chance it could be ugly."

Damn, there goes the thug in Danny Fortson for ya!!!

[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[Fah Q]

Originally posted by: madape
I think we all need to take a step back and see the big picture. What is the right thing to do here? In my opinion, we need to leave this ugly mess behind us and get back to playing Maverick basketball. If that's too "soft" for you, go be a fan of the Blazers. They need all the fans they can get.

I guess since Fortson isn't going anywhere you shouldn't be a Maverick fan anymore because the Mavs are now a bunch of dirty players.

Give me a break. Aren't you the one who loves Bradley? Just to let you know Bradley is pretty well known for his use of the flying elbows and intentionally getting locked opposing players.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
A quote from Fortson:

"It was just a bad play. It was awful," he said. "I didn't mean to hurt the guy. By the time I put my hands on him, he was flying through the air. I was totally surprised by that, and as soon as I did it I knew there was a chance it could be ugly."

He was totally surprised by what? That the guy jumped in the air? WTF this makes no sense at all!
Fortson didn't even raise his hands until the guy had already began his jump. As soon as the guy began to take off Fortson made a beeline to the guys midsection with both hands. Of course he appologized, and mabye he feels bad. I know I feel bad when I do stupid things.

FFM: I never said that Fortson is a thug, because I really don't know much about him. But his actions were inexcuseable and only a complete moron would call it a good hard foul, or give him credit for playing tough.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: Fah Q

I guess since Fortson isn't going anywhere you shouldn't be a Maverick fan anymore because the Mavs are now a bunch of dirty players.

Give me a break. Aren't you the one who loves Bradley? Just to let you know Bradley is pretty well known for his use of the flying elbows and intentionally getting locked opposing players.

Bradley generally dishes out deserved dirty play. Like when Bradley tripped that guy for elbowing him. He was only dishing out tit for tat, because the referees weren't doing thier job. I'm all for the Mavs refusing to be bullied.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

It seems as if you are blowing this way out of porportion. I think thugish fouls are the last thing the league is hurting from. I think the refs are what we all should be debating here. Not that Stern wants to hurt players intentionally.

FFM the refs are only an extention of Stern's will. They do what he wants or he would change it. And no we don't have players getting hurt every game, but the current level of thuggery is endorsed and wanted by Stern. Does he intetionally select players to get hurt? I would say no, but so long as it's not a superstar that his marketing campaign is heavily using, then Stern looks at it as just another good marketing opportunity. He wants the thuggish behavior and a few injuries from it.

[madape]

Bradley generally dishes out deserved dirty play. Like when Bradley tripped that guy for elbowing him. He was only dishing out tit for tat, because the referees weren't doing thier job. I'm all for the Mavs refusing to be bullied.

That's horseshit. Bradley does not intentionally try to put people on the ground. When he gives a hard foul, it's almost always a case where he's going for a block. When he gets tangled up in people, it's because he's trying to get good position for a rebound. I don't think I've ever seen him intentionally try to take someone out. You can check his history of flagrant fouls. You won't find many. He's put a couple of players out of commission in his career, but they've almost always been the result of clean play. He's physical and intimidating, but never dirty. He's exactly what Fortson isn't.

That said, the Mavericks have an obligation to go beyond what the league has set down here. They need to let it be known that this type of behavior has no place on this team. I'd be satisfied with a five game team-administered suspension in addition to the three games laid down by the league. That would show both Fortson and the rest of the league that cheap shots are not acceptable. We will not be that kind of team.

Maybe Fortson can change his ways. But I don't him being sent back into the rotation with the Mavericks taking absolutley no diciplenary action. His behavior is a reflection of the team and the team should be laying down the punishment. The source of the message means everything. The thought of Cuban fighting the suspension sickens me.

[dude1394]

He was totally surprised by what? That the guy jumped in the air? WTF this makes no sense at all!
Fortson didn't even raise his hands until the guy had already began his jump. As soon as the guy began to take off Fortson made a beeline to the guys midsection with both hands. Of course he appologized, and mabye he feels bad. I know I feel bad when I do stupid things.

I think what he is saying is that he tried to "stop" him from getting the layup, but as he's admitted what he tried to do didn't work out like he thought it would. His leverage was bad, he was too strong and the guy reacted in a way that he didn't expect. I've fouled people before and didn't mean for it to be as bad as it was, being out of position will do that to you sometimes. I'm not condoning it perse, but that is how I understand his statement.

[grndmstr_c]

The Mavericks' position is that while they will not appeal the suspension, they do not believe that Fortson intended to injure Zarko. Accordingly, I would be very surprised if they took any other formal disciplinary action against Fortson, which is fine with me because I don't think they should do anything else. Three games is the max allowed for under the CBA, and that's enough. I wouldn't, however, be surprised if Nellie is a little stingy with the minutes after Danny comes back. Of course, he could go the opposite route and punish him by making him playing 35 minutes against Shaq the next time we play LA.

You know, Madape, you should really try to look at the bright side of this whole thing: more minutes for the Mantis.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

Bradley does not intentionally try to put people on the ground. When he gives a hard foul, it's almost always a case where he's going for a block. When he gets tangled up in people, it's because he's trying to get good position for a rebound. I don't think I've ever seen him intentionally try to take someone out. You can check his history of flagrant fouls. You won't find many. He's put a couple of players out of commission in his career, but they've almost always been the result of clean play. He's physical and intimidating, but never dirty. He's exactly what Fortson isn't.

Actually I agree with you madape. In fact probably the player on the team who is most prone to retaliate in a dirty manner is dirk, only he doesn't hit them hard enough to really hurt them. ;^) I've seen him get elbowed or something and he'll do the kind of rake across the arms as the person is going by. Retaliation and frustration. But you are correct, I think bradley gets a horrible rap and he probably should hit folks harder because he gets rotten calls anyway.

That said, the Mavericks have an obligation to go beyond what the league has set down here.

Looks like a quixotic quest to me. I see no reason for the mavs to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage just because the league does a wink-wink at this behaviour. Talking to fortson about it so that he won't get suspended again or so that (the rest of the league doesn't take it out on the other mavs) seems prudent. But as a ticket holder, I'm not interested in the mavs signing up for some kind of morality play when the league isn't interested in doing anymore than 3 games. Sorry, I'm not on board with that.

[FreshJive]

That's horseshit. Bradley does not intentionally try to put people on the ground. When he gives a hard foul, it's almost always a case where he's going for a block.

Oh yeah? In the play I described it was obvious that Bradley intentionally put that guy(Lorenzen Wright?) on the ground. Its not the first time he has ever done it. However, I believe it is much different than what Fortson did. I'm not sure why you called my comment out as horseshit when Fah Q is the one who equated what Fortson did and what Bradley sometimes does. I was merely trying to distinguish the two.

[FreshJive]

You're right Dude. I misunderstood the statement. He meant he was "surprised" by the outcome. I thought he was trying to say that he was surprised by Zarko's move. I think we've all fouled people unexpectedly hard, but according to Madape (from what I've read from Madape it doesn't seem like he makes things up) Fortson has shown a pattern of this behavior. I really don't know enough about Fortson to know.

[dude1394]

Nor I. But I will admit that I have HOPED for some hard fouls when guys have blasted past the mavs in the past. I know I have heard Derek Harper for one call for many of them. So I guess us fans aren't complete bloodthirsty savages.

[FreshJive]

I also enjoy watching players get rough with each other and I love watching Bradley and Najera putting themselves in harms way to prevent easy buckets. I guess where we disagree is that I don't qualify what Fortson did as a hard foul, but an unnecesary cheap shot.
You bloodthirsty savage[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Go listen to your Toby Kieth albums.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]