Just a thought: Jamison to the Cavs - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kg_veteran · 06-08-2004, 04:48 PM

I'm not convinced that Walker is the hot commodity that many make him out to be. I think the Mavs are going to have to show patience to turn Walker into something good, and while I may be proven wrong in the near future, I honestly think the Mavs are stuck with Walker until the trading deadline -- or longer.

That being the case, I think the Mavs have to look hard at trading Jamison. One team that is a logical trading partner is the Cavaliers. They need a scorer to play alongside James that takes some of the pressure off of him. Jamison can be that guy. The Cavs have some pieces that fit with what Dallas needs.

My proposed trade: Jamison to the Cavs for Battie and the No. 10 pick.

Word has it that Pavel will still be on the board at No. 10. Clearly, he'd be the ideal "project big man" the Mavs have been lacking for several years.

The big bonus of this trade, however, is that it would give the Mavs roughly a 6.2m trade exception. They could then use that to trade a bit player like Delk to the Jazz for a S&T Ostertag. If you could then convince Avery Johnson to sign on as player/coach, things are starting to round into shape.

Ostertag/Battie/Bradley gives you a lot of options at the center spot for the present. Pavel gives you the potential future solution.

Walker could actually be a nice bench player playing some time at both forward spots, and we'd still have the potential to deal him -- except that we'd have more of an opportunity to be choosy.

Ostertag - Battie - Bradley - Pavel
Nowitzki - Walker - Najera
Finley - Howard
Daniels
Nash - Johnson

IR: Fortson, Wahad, Steffansson

P.S. Naturally, if we could talk the Cavs into giving us Diop, I'd prefer that and would be willing to take on Wagner to get that done. In that instance, you just don't have a roster spot for Avery.

kg_veteran · 06-08-2004, 04:50 PM

Also, I think I pointed this out above, but if Pavel is gone, there are still other options at the No. 10. Biedrins and Harris would both be nice picks at 10. Biedrins gives you a potential Pau Gasol type who can play PF/C and is a big-time shotblocker; Harris gives you a potential heir apparent at PG.

dalmations202 · 06-08-2004, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm not convinced that Walker is the hot commodity that many make him out to be. I think the Mavs are going to have to show patience to turn Walker into something good, and while I may be proven wrong in the near future, I honestly think the Mavs are stuck with Walker until the trading deadline -- or longer.

That being the case, I think the Mavs have to look hard at trading Jamison. One team that is a logical trading partner is the Cavaliers. They need a scorer to play alongside James that takes some of the pressure off of him. Jamison can be that guy. The Cavs have some pieces that fit with what Dallas needs.

My proposed trade: Jamison to the Cavs for Battie and the No. 10 pick.

Word has it that Pavel will still be on the board at No. 10. Clearly, he'd be the ideal "project big man" the Mavs have been lacking for several years.

The big bonus of this trade, however, is that it would give the Mavs roughly a 6.2m trade exception. They could then use that to trade a bit player like Delk to the Jazz for a S&T Ostertag. If you could then convince Avery Johnson to sign on as player/coach, things are starting to round into shape.

Ostertag/Battie/Bradley gives you a lot of options at the center spot for the present. Pavel gives you the potential future solution.

Walker could actually be a nice bench player playing some time at both forward spots, and we'd still have the potential to deal him -- except that we'd have more of an opportunity to be choosy.

Ostertag - Battie - Bradley - Pavel
Nowitzki - Walker - Najera
Finley - Howard
Daniels
Nash - Johnson

IR: Fortson, Wahad, Steffansson

P.S. Naturally, if we could talk the Cavs into giving us Diop, I'd prefer that and would be willing to take on Wagner to get that done. In that instance, you just don't have a roster spot for Avery.

I like the idea. One question though?

Quote:

The big bonus of this trade, however, is that it would give the Mavs roughly a 6.2m trade exception. They could then use that to trade a bit player like Delk to the Jazz for a S&T Ostertag. If you could then convince Avery Johnson to sign on as player/coach, things are starting to round into shape.

Delk and a 6.2M exception are only going to get us Ostertag (although I like the idea of Ostertag here)? ? I am not thinking that Ostertag gets the full MLE, my guess is around Bradley range of 4-4.5M. How about instead: Delk and the 6.2 to Chicago for the #3, and a player of their choice. Then use the #3 and #10 to try to move to #1 and Okafor. Or keep the #3 and #10 and see who you can get from these 4 - Livingston, Pavel, Andriuskevicius, or Biedrins.

If I am going to try to get involved with Utah, I am going to try to send them Fortson for Ostertag in a SNT. Sloan would play Fortson, and he would lead the league in rebounds. They might be willing to do this, since Ostertag wants to leave anyway.

kg_veteran · 06-08-2004, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Delk and a 6.2M exception are only going to get us Ostertag (although I like the idea of Ostertag here)? ? I am not thinking that Ostertag gets the full MLE, my guess is around Bradley range of 4-4.5M.

I didn't mean to suggest that you'd have to use the entire trade exception to get Ostertag -- probably just part of it.

Quote:

How about instead: Delk and the 6.2 to Chicago for the #3, and a player of their choice.

Put yourself in John Paxson's shoes. Are you going to make that deal? Tony Delk and a trade exception for the No. 3 -- just so that you can dump a guy like Eddie Robinson? I don't think so.

Quote:

If I am going to try to get involved with Utah, I am going to try to send them Fortson for Ostertag in a SNT. Sloan would play Fortson, and he would lead the league in rebounds. They might be willing to do this, since Ostertag wants to leave anyway.

Fortson has too many years left on his deal. Utah's not going to want him. IMO.

dalmations202 · 06-08-2004, 05:21 PM

Quote:

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How about instead: Delk and the 6.2 to Chicago for the #3, and a player of their choice.
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Put yourself in John Paxson's shoes. Are you going to make that deal? Tony Delk and a trade exception for the No. 3 -- just so that you can dump a guy like Eddie Robinson? I don't think so.

I guess my question is #1: Is Chicago really wanting out of the draft position? #2 Have they really given up on Chandler? #3 How bad do they want to get rid of ERob.

Najera and the Trade Exception for Chandler/ERob ? ? maybe.

What is it that Chicago might want from the Mavs that could get either Chandler/Curry and/or the #3?

PepperTheMavsFan41 · 06-08-2004, 07:16 PM

Yeah DraftCity floated this one out there as something theyve heard.

Although DWag name was also in the mix.

Making it even more intreaguing.

Wagner certainly could be a "Nellie" type backup point.

grndmstr_c · 06-08-2004, 07:19 PM

I'm more interested in hanging on to AJ than you are, KG, but if moving him could get us Battie and a young big like Pavel or Andriuskevicius, I'd have to bite.

ddh33 · 06-08-2004, 10:19 PM

I agree about Walker not having quite as much value as originally expected. I think it is a real possibility that he MIGHT have to stay a little longer. We'll probably know soon enough.

On the other hand, Jamison's value is very high right now. The Mavs might just parlay that into something more.

I don't know if Jamison is the ideal fit in Cleveland though. If I'm Cavs management, I want someone who is more perimter oriented - not someone like Jamison who scores primarily from the post. I would want a running mate for Lebron who could shoot lights out.

The other thing is that I hate to deal Jamison, but like someone else said, if it's an amazing deal, you have to do it. It's hard to know if this is since we don't know who will be around in the draft at that time. I sure don't think Pavel will, although I think there is a good chance that Biedrins drops...

MavsFanFinley · 06-08-2004, 10:40 PM

I hate the idea of trading Jamison before Walker as well. However, it's become pretty obvious that not many (if any) teams are biting on any deal involving Walker.

Luckily, we can afford to deal Jamison knowing what Howard can do. No, he isn't the offensive threat that Jamison is, but he defends and rebounds. And he's young.

jayC · 06-09-2004, 12:14 AM

If you do the deal, you have to be damn sure you get a defensive presence in the draft. Who knows what Paxson is thinking? Probably that he has a logjam at PF/C and two young guys that are almost busts.

I think that fans do often overvalue players like Jamison and Walker's value. But you don't make major changes without netting a defensive presence.

bcrav4 · 06-09-2004, 01:22 AM

Dirk and Pavel or Dirk and Ramos....which is scarrier????

MightyToine · 06-09-2004, 08:18 AM

Mavs are STUCK with Walker until the Trading deadline.

BOOK IT. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Dirkenstien · 06-09-2004, 08:38 AM

Im not completely in favor of trading Jamison away, being that I feel he will play a big role in a run for the trophy however, if this trade scenario did infact become available I would have to bite on it because it gives us a chance to drastically address our center issues while also providing opportunity to add the big-time prospect, Pavel.

I like it.

ddh33 · 06-09-2004, 09:18 AM

Here's another problem: I see no way that Pavel lasts that long. In fact, I'm betting he's gone by 5.

sike · 06-09-2004, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bcrav4
Dirk and Pavel or Dirk and Ramos....which is scarrier????

whichever one will not turn out to be a total spare.
what have either of these guys shown you that leads you to believe they will be anything more than more very large men from far away who cannot really play the American game?

I do like Battie..I see him as the poor mans Marcus Camby.....

dont know if I would trade Jamison for Battie (because I dont believer that either of those two mentioned bigs will help anytime soon)

I would of course trade Walker for a can of expired pinto beans though.....so the real question may be Dirk and Pavel or Dirk and Ramos orrr Dirk and Pinto beans....
though I would take Dampier over either...and possibly take Chandler and the #3 over Dampier....

Dirkenstien · 06-09-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ddh33
Here's another problem: I see no way that Pavel lasts that long. In fact, I'm betting he's gone by 5.

You're probably right. Our best bet is probably to try to get the number 4 from Charlotte or get the number 10 from Cleveland and try to trade up with Charlotte.

Dirkenstien · 06-09-2004, 01:23 PM

Quote:

what have either of these guys shown you that leads you to believe they will be anything more than more very large men from far away who cannot really play the American game?

At the pre-draft camp last year when Pavel made a huge splash I remember seeing a video clip of him playing. I am aware that sometimes video clips dont tell the true story of a player's capabilities but this guy (Pavel) is very big, well proportioned, and very mobile for someone his size. (Not quite Yao Ming mobile, but very similar). The kid is going to be a good player in this league..whether he'll be great or not, well thats up to the basketball gods to decide. He certainly has the potential.

harsh euro barge · 06-09-2004, 01:23 PM

I think that Pavel will still be around at 10, a lot of mocks i saw don't have him super high

And kg, how do we get a trade exception prom the Cavs trade? I'm not sure how that works..... is is because they'll be under the cap next year?

kg_veteran · 06-10-2004, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: harsh euro barge
And kg, how do we get a trade exception prom the Cavs trade? I'm not sure how that works..... is is because they'll be under the cap next year?

Here's the pertinent portion of the Larry Coon CBA FAQ:

Quote:

68. What is the traded player exception?

Trades are typically completed all at once. Such trades are dubbed simultaneous trades. However, teams actually have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These are considered non-simultaneous trades. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can only acquire up to 100% plus $100,000 of the salary it gives up (as opposed to 115% plus $100,000 in a simultaneous trade). A trade in which more than one player is traded away can only be simultaneous; non-simultaneous trades are allowed only when a single player is traded away.

Here is an example of a non-simultaneous trade: a team trades away a $2 million player for a $1 million player. Sometime in the next year, they trade a draft pick (with zero trade value itself) for a $1.1 million player to complete the earlier trade. They ended up acquiring $2.1 million in salary for their $2 million player -- they just didn't do it all at once, or even necessarily with the same trading partner.
In the above example, after the initial trade of the $2 million player for the $1 million player, it was like the team had a "credit" for one year, with which they could aquire up to $1.1 million in salaries without having to send out salaries to match. This credit is often referred to as a traded player exception or simply a trade exception , although the CBA doesn't actually use either of these terms -- it is simply a component of the assigned player exception.

There are some common misconceptions about this exception. For one, teams cannot use this exception to sign free agents; it can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. For another, teams cannot combine this exception with the 115% plus $100,000 margin from the assigned player exception in order to trade for a more expensive player. For example, while a $2 million player can be traded for a $2.4 million player using the assigned player exception, a team with a $1 million trade exception cannot combine the two together and trade their $2 million player for a $3.4 million player (see question number 71 for more information on combining exceptions).

Here is a more complicated example of a legal trade using the traded player exception: A team has a $4 million trade exception from an earlier trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Another team has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $6 million, and the two teams want to do a three-for-one trade with these players. This is legal -- the $5 million and $6 million players together make less than the 115% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($11,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million trade exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $6 million player.

Let's say a team trades a $6 million player for a $4 million player and a minimum-salary player (assume he's a 10-year veteran making $1 million). They will use two exceptions for this trade -- the assigned player exception for the $4 million player, and the minimum-salary exception for the minimum-salary player. Only the players traded using the assigned player exception count toward the traded player exception, so a traded player exception will be created for $6 million minus $4 million, or $2 million (plus $100,000, for $2.1 million total). The minimum-salary player doesn't factor in at all.

Again, non-simultaneous trades are not available when a team trades away multiple players (aggregates) using the assigned player exception. Let's say a team has a $4 million player and a $5 million player, and uses the assigned player exception to trade for an $8 million player. Even though they trade away more salary ($9 million) than they receive ($8 million), the fact that they aggregated the two players using the assigned player exception means they do not gain a traded player exception. It is sometimes possible to reorganize trades so that players technically are not aggregated, and therefore teams do gain a trade exception

Teams can consume only part of a traded player exception, in which case they can still use the remainder in a future trade. For example, if a team trades a $4 million player for a $2 million player, they gain a $2.1 million trade exception. If they later trade a draft pick for a $1 million player, they still have $1.1 million remaining to acquire more players and complete the trade (until one year from the date of the original trade).

Thus, in the scenario I described, Dallas is trading away Jamison (12.5 million) and receiving Battie and the No. 10 (4.8 m + 1.5m). They sent away 6.2 million more than they received -- thus the trade exception of 6.2 million. That exception (or a portion of it) can be used in a non-simultaneous trade with another team (in this case, the Jazz). So the Mavs could send away a cheaper player or a 2nd round pick (which has no cap value because it's a non-guaranteed contract) and receive back more than enough salary to get a guy like Ostertag.

MightyToine · 06-10-2004, 12:22 PM

Pinto beans are OVERRATED.

bcrav4 · 06-10-2004, 12:26 PM

We could always aim for Ramos! He's quicker and more fundamentally sound from what I hear. Plus he doesn't have giantism.

kg_veteran · 06-10-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MightyToine
Pinto beans are OVERRATED.

Dude, contribute something or don't post.

harsh euro barge · 06-10-2004, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the info, KG

MightyToine · 06-11-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Quote:

Originally posted by: MightyToine
Pinto beans are OVERRATED.

Dude, contribute something or don't post.

Sorry KG. Just trying - unsuccessfully - to be funny. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

FilthyFinMavs · 06-11-2004, 03:32 PM

You'd honestly trade Jamison for a backup center and a rookie in this draft whose name isn't Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor?

kg_veteran · 06-11-2004, 03:59 PM

Actually, it's two centers and a guy out of the draft.

And to answer your question, yes, I think I would.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-11-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Actually, it's two centers and a guy out of the draft.

And to answer your question, yes, I think I would.

Are you referring to Ostertag as the other center? I'd love to think we could get much more for Jamison. As far as Pavel I don't know anything about the guy so I won't comment on him. But from what I can see this draft is full of projects. You don't know whose going to be a bust or not and after Dwight Howard and Okafor this draft is meaningless. I just think you could get exactly what you want for less than Jamison.

dalmations202 · 06-11-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Actually, it's two centers and a guy out of the draft.

And to answer your question, yes, I think I would.

You are saying Pavel, Ostertag, and Battie for Jamison. That I might, but would still have to think about it.

kg_veteran · 06-11-2004, 04:21 PM

Or, possibly, Pavel, Ostertag, and Diop.

If you think you're getting more for Jamison than that, I think you're probably overvaluing Jamison just a bit.

dalmations202 · 06-11-2004, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Or, possibly, Pavel, Ostertag, and Diop.

If you think you're getting more for Jamison than that, I think you're probably overvaluing Jamison just a bit.

If you get Pavel, Ostertag, Diop - and keep Bradley....you finally have Centers and yes, I would do that. The offense has to change, and become more 1/2 court, but at least you have Centers then.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-11-2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Or, possibly, Pavel, Ostertag, and Diop.

If you think you're getting more for Jamison than that, I think you're probably overvaluing Jamison just a bit.

Ostertag is a shorter version of Bradley. Pavel is a project. Diop is a project whose been in this league for awhile now and still can't seem to get time. I love Diop's potential but potential gets you no where if you don't use it. A guy I like over Pavel is Peter John Ramos. A guy whose 7'4 and averaged 20.4 pts, 9.6 rebounds, 3.5 assists and a league leading 2.3 blocks for his Criollos de Caguas team. Just 18. That's a project I want to get my hands on he could be had for less then Jamison. As far as Ostertag goes well I thought he was a free agent anyway? I think he may even be worse then Shawn Bradley. I know a get a pretty good shotblocker in Shawn Bradley. What does Tag bring? Size?

FilthyFinMavs · 06-11-2004, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dalmations202

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Or, possibly, Pavel, Ostertag, and Diop.

If you think you're getting more for Jamison than that, I think you're probably overvaluing Jamison just a bit.

If you get Pavel, Ostertag, Diop - and keep Bradley....you finally have Centers and yes, I would do that. The offense has to change, and become more 1/2 court, but at least you have Centers then.

With Nash at point this team will never be a half court team and a good one at that? Adding Bradley or Ostertag doesn't make us become a half court team it just leaves 1 guy on the floor who will still be on the opposing teams half of the court while our team will be attempting to score on the break. The only way we become a better half court team is if we have an option in the post who can create moves. That's not what Ostertag or any of those names above can do. You'd like to think Diop could become that but he's still potential.

harsh euro barge · 06-11-2004, 07:31 PM

What about Dale Davis instead of Ostertag with the exemption? He only has one year left, and Portland would love to cut salary....

bcrav4 · 06-11-2004, 07:39 PM

Ramos could be good. He is a good scorer and a good passer. He could be the new focal of the offense, when he gets double teamed he could kick it out or post his man up and score. NOW THATZ A GOOD HALF-COURT MAVERICKS TEAM.

Dirkenstien · 06-11-2004, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: bcrav4
Ramos could be good. He is a good scorer and a good passer. He could be the new focal of the offense, when he gets double teamed he could kick it out or post his man up and score. NOW THATZ A GOOD HALF-COURT MAVERICKS TEAM.

I believe if the mavericks got into the position to draft one of the coveted centers of this draft it would be a toss up between Pavel and Ramos with Aroujo being a third option if both are off of the board. I however, would have my fingers crossed in hopes that we'd acquire Pavel