Dirk, Shaq, Leadership, Championships

[TwoDeep3]

There are a lot of sportswriters out there who don't have a clue what they're talking about, TwoDeep.

And to think all a savvy periodical would need do is come here and solicit the help from any of the brilliant basketball minds to write for their publication.

Because the basketball I.Q. on this board is so superior to half the NBA coaches and G.M.s.

What an oasis of intellegence the sports world is missing.

[ocelot_ark]

Thanks for proving our point...you're opinion is worth the exact thing ours is...jack shit.

[dude1394]

I would like dirk to be just as soft as duncan is.

And in my opinion if duncan is considred "soft" then the meaning of "soft" is wildly unknown.

[mavsfanforever]

All this crap about someone being soft is pure B.S. That refers to any NBA players. Anyone who is in the NBA is extremely talented and had to go through a lot of tougher guys during their learning period. I just don't understand the concept of being "SOFT". Its a stupid word the media uses to cover up their ignorance about a player or the game itself.

[dude1394]

Because the basketball I.Q. on this board is so superior to half the NBA coaches and G.M.s.

What an oasis of intellegence the sports world is missing.

Please get the word out will you.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I would like dirk to be just as soft as duncan is.

And in my opinion if duncan is considred "soft" then the meaning of "soft" is wildly unknown.

When you realize that soft and talent are two different things then the word soft will have a clear definition.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever
All this crap about someone being soft is pure B.S. That refers to any NBA players. Anyone who is in the NBA is extremely talented and had to go through a lot of tougher guys during their learning period. I just don't understand the concept of being "SOFT". Its a stupid word the media uses to cover up their ignorance about a player or the game itself.

It's not hard. Brad Miller is not soft. Ray Allen is considered soft. Maybe that has alot do with his own coach calling him soft.

[mavsfanforever]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

It's not hard. Brad Miller is not soft. Ray Allen is considered soft. Maybe that has alot do with his own coach calling him soft.

What is SOFT?

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever

What is SOFT?

Have the Mavs play of basketball brainwashed you? Soft is not being physical. Simple as that.

[dude1394]

As I said I want dirk to be just as soft as duncan. I know what the word "soft" is supposed to mean, but if duncan is soft then the definition is meaningless.

[mavsfanforever]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Have the Mavs play of basketball brainwashed you? Soft is not being physical. Simple as that.

No personal insults please. I cannot understand this: Brad miller and Ray Allen play very different positions. I am not sure Brad Miller will survive without being physical(thats the position he plays). If that is the case Najera is not soft and Mike Bibby is.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever

No personal insults please. I cannot understand this: Brad miller and Ray Allen play very different positions. I am not sure Brad Miller will survive without being physical(thats the position he plays). If that is the case Najera is not soft and Mike Bibby is.

It wasn't an insult. If you watch nothing but Mavs than you probaly wouldn't know what physical play is until every once in awhile a team like the Pistons come into town. Let me give a better example. Brad Miller is not soft. Shawn Bradley is.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: dude1394
As I said I want dirk to be just as soft as duncan. I know what the word "soft" is supposed to mean, but if duncan is soft then the definition is meaningless.

Oh so Duncan is that bruiser? Duncan is that physical monster who every center in the league fears? If so, then that is my fault. Duncan is not soft.

[FineCubanCigar]

Shawn Bradley is soft, Ben Wallace is not. If you can Dunk, you Dunk. If you can play D, you man up. If you can take a charge, you take a charge. You don't back down, you don't duck when someone tries to dunk (Bradley). You box out consistantly, and you don't just try to win in the STATS column, you try to physically manhandle and exhauset your oppenent. That is the difference between being soft and not. Its not merely some made up word, it is a very discriptive adjective when heard, and interpreted correctly.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: FineCubanCigar
Shawn Bradley is soft, Ben Wallace is not. If you can Dunk, you Dunk. If you can play D, you man up. If you can take a charge, you take a charge. You don't back down, you don't duck when someone tries to dunk (Bradley). You box out consistantly, and you don't just try to win in the STATS column, you try to physically manhandle and exhauset your oppenent. That is the difference between being soft and not. Its not merely some made up word, it is a very discriptive adjective when heard, and interpreted correctly.

I think you said it best. I wanted to bring up Shawn vs. Wallace but with Wallace's height I was afraid someone was going to bring another Bibby vs. Najera type argument.

[mavsfanforever]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

It wasn't an insult. If you watch nothing but Mavs than you probaly wouldn't know what physical play is until every once in awhile a team like the Pistons come into town. Let me give a better example. Brad Miller is not soft. Shawn Bradley is.

I do not watch mavs alone. Even if I wanted to I cannot since if I watch mavs I also have to watch the team that is playing the mavs.

I bet you not many players who are defended by Bradley will agree that shawn braldley is soft. This guy led the league in technicals when he was in Philly. he broke a laptop last season in Indiana and just came back and played the game like nothing happened. I am telling you all this "BEING SOFT" concept is just a way for the media to support their arguments. While some players may be tougher than others "e.g., Allen Iverson", there is no soft person in NBA. This is the highest level of competition and one cannot get into NBA without being tough(both mentally and physically).

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever

I do not watch mavs alone. Even if I wanted to I cannot since if I watch mavs I also have to watch the team that is playing the mavs.

I bet you not many players who are defended by Bradley will agree that shawn braldley is soft. This guy led the league in technicals when he was in Philly. he broke a laptop last season in Indiana and just came back and played the game like nothing happened. I am telling you all this "BEING SOFT" concept is just a way for the media to support their arguments. While some players may be tougher than others "e.g., Allen Iverson", there is no soft person in NBA. This is the highest level of competition and one cannot get into NBA without being tough(both mentally and physically).

Bradley is more clumsy if anything. It doesn't suprise me that Bradley led the league in techs when he was in Philly. It seems as if everytime he comes into the game for the Mavs which is rare he gets a tech. If he played every game this season he probaly would once again lead the league in techs. It's not because he being too physical it's because he's bitching and moaning. When you you use the word soft I don't think you care what that guy did in high school or middle school. When we speak soft it's what he is known as in the NBA. Is he a physical guy or is he soft.

do not watch mavs alone. Even if I wanted to I cannot since if I watch mavs I also have to watch the team that is playing the mavs.

"If you watch nothing but Mavs than you probaly wouldn't know what physical play is until every once in awhile a team like the Pistons come into town."

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

Oh so Duncan is that bruiser? Duncan is that physical monster who every center in the league fears? If so, then that is my fault. Duncan is not soft.

This is why the term as it's being used here is meaningless. For duncan to not be "soft" he has to be a physical monster who every center in the league fears. There's only one of those playing this year. Duncan is NOT soft, he shot the third most ft's in the league and they weren't on the perimeter. It's an inane term to use with repect to him.

[mavsfanforever]

FFm, you and I have very different definition of soft and tough.

I think being physical is only one of the aspects of being tough.

One more aspect is making clutch shots at the end of the game. You have to be mentally tough to do that.
For the reason above I think Steve Kerr is tough. I think MJ is tough. I think Duncan is tough, I think even Sam Cassell is tough.

Being able to carry your team when everyone else is not able to make shots is tough:

For that reason I think Dirk is tough, Duncan is tough, Shaq is tough, Kobe is tough, MJ is tough.

If only being physical is being tough then Ron Artest is tougher than MJ(doesn;t sound right does it?).

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3
Because the basketball I.Q. on this board is so superior to half the NBA coaches and G.M.s.

Yet another thing you came up with on your own. Nobody said this, either.

What an oasis of intellegence the sports world is missing.

You could contribute to that oasis, but instead you just come here to spew negativity. It's too bad.

[TwoDeep3]

You could contribute to that oasis, but instead you just come here to spew negativity. It's too bad.

I came here and stated Dirk is a soft player that wants no part of the low post game.

I also do not think he is mentally tough enough to be the leader of this team.

Three pages later after insults and snide remarks, you post this.

Evidently I should have said Don Nelson needs to be fired, mark Cuban is an egomaniacal maniac, Walker sucks, Bradley needs to play mor, and Dirk is a basketball God.

That sums up this board pretty much.

I do not agree with most of the above. Except perhaps the Walker comment.

As I stated earlier, the easiest way to deny a message is to kill the messenger.

No sports reporter that writes anything this board does not agree with is not labeled a moron. Fans rarely take a hard look at the truth about their team.

Soft in Dirk's case is his choice of jump shooting over banging inside. Because he has the frame and skill to play the low post, but more than not he chooses to fire away from outside.

The idea that Nelson dictates this and requires Nowitzki to play outside is hilarious.

He can ask for the ball dfown low and when crunch time comes demand it.

The excuse given here is the play is called for someone else.

The fact is Dirk doesn't want the contact. Nor the leadership role when it counts.

Ocelot spewed:

Thanks for proving our point...you're opinion is worth the exact thing ours is...jack shit.

If you had read the first comment in this thread, made by me, you would have come to that conclusion a long time ago.

TwoDeep said:

This is a messageboard and not one of us truly knows what goes on in the minds of these players.

[ocelot_ark]

So why is it that your soapbox is any different? Oh, that would be that the majority of the people here think you're wrong.

[LRB]

No sports reporter that writes anything this board does not agree with is not labeled a moron. Fans rarely take a hard look at the truth about their team.

If the Sports reporter, who is being paid to writer entertaining and ACCURATE sports stories, writes a story that is not only highly improbable but is impossible according to the CBA (collective bargaining agreement) then he is either a moron or incredibly lazy and dishonest to his employer or both.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3

I came here and stated Dirk is a soft player that wants no part of the low post game.

I also do not think he is mentally tough enough to be the leader of this team.

Three pages later after insults and snide remarks, you post this.

Nice try to take one quote out of context, TwoDeep. My comment about you spewing negativity was in reference to your repeated attempts to say that this message board basically has only one collective opinion and attacks and insults anyone who disagrees. That's simply untrue. No one is insulting you or making snide remarks to you; they're simply disagreeing with you -- ironically, the very thing you claim that they won't allow you to do.

Evidently I should have said Don Nelson needs to be fired, mark Cuban is an egomaniacal maniac, Walker sucks, Bradley needs to play mor, and Dirk is a basketball God.

That sums up this board pretty much.

This board has over 1800 members and regularly has about 50-100 people using the site. I think it's somewhat naive to try and lump everybody into one pot.

Oddly enough, I haven't seen a single person in this thread call for Nelson to be fired, call Cuban an egomaniac, say that Walker sucks, call for Bradley to play more, or say that Dirk is a basketball god. I have seen a pretty good debate running about Dirk and his leadership abilities, as well as whether or not he's "soft".

Too bad you're too busy stereotyping the members of this board as a whole to participate.

No sports reporter that writes anything this board does not agree with is not labeled a moron. Fans rarely take a hard look at the truth about their team.

Again, this is just flat-out untrue. I disagree with what Whitlock said about Dirk, but I didn't label him a moron or "attack the messenger" at all. Nor did anyone else. Some of us just disagreed with him. Note: SOME of us. Because some of the posters in this thread (notably FilthyFinMavs) agreed with Whitlock.

I guess there are differing opinions here, after all. Hmmmm.

Soft in Dirk's case is his choice of jump shooting over banging inside. Because he has the frame and skill to play the low post, but more than not he chooses to fire away from outside.

The idea that Nelson dictates this and requires Nowitzki to play outside is hilarious.

He can ask for the ball dfown low and when crunch time comes demand it.

The excuse given here is the play is called for someone else.

The fact is Dirk doesn't want the contact. Nor the leadership role when it counts.

Ah, at last. Substantive discussion.

I don't think Nelson "requires" Dirk to play outside. I do think, though, that he doesn't run very many plays for Dirk to get the ball in the post. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you? Cuban talked about the fact recently that plays are called on almost every possession, so I have to believe that as rarely as Dirk gets the ball in the post, the playcalling has to be at least a contributing factor. So assuming that Nelson isn't calling that many plays for Dirk to get the ball in the post, why is that? Is it partially because Dirk is uncomfortable on the block? I would imagine so. But is it unreasonable to assume that it's also partially because Nellie just prefers to call other plays that don't involve posting Dirk up? I don't think that's unreasonable.

As for the end of the game thing, I'll repeat what I said earlier. They DO run plays at the end of the game, and as a big guy, Dirk has to be passed the ball. Whether it's his teammates not passing it to him or Nelson not drawing the play up for Dirk, Dirk has to GET the ball before he can do something with it. If you want to assume that Nelson isn't drawing the play up for Dirk because he's "soft" or his teammates don't pass him the ball because he's "soft", that's certainly your right.

[dude1394]

I think what I'm also seeing is that during the season there isn't as many plays for dirk in the post but during the playoffs he spends quite a bit of time there and he also takes it to the hole more.

Probably because he "actually" risks injury going inside so much. But he does it anyway in the playoffs because he's such a competitor.

[bigox71]

Actually, most people are very respectful on this board if you disagree with them. I know because I disagree with a lot of things said and I say so. All you have to do is make sure what you say is well thought out, clear, and well supported.

And KG took the words right out of my mouth: Dirk is a big and must be passed the ball to make an offensive play. You want more proof of this look at Shaq the last two games of the Finals. He tore it up whenever he got the ball, but Kobe wanted to be the stud and threw the ball up every chance he got. SHAQ IS THE MOST DOMINANT PLAYER IN THE GAME, BUT EVEN HE HAS TO HAVE THE BALL PASSED TO HIM IN A TIME AND POSITION TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING. So does dirk.

[Murphy3]

So BigOx, you're saying that it's difficult to score in the low post if the ball is rarely given to you when you're down there? That and that it's difficult to score in the low post if plays are rarely ran for you to be posted up?

You, sir, are a smart man.

[Murphy3]

TwoDeep, I truly do enjoy reading what you have to say. I must say that I do wish that it was slightly less confrontational. Yes, I believe that we would all agree that confrontation and debate are two things that do make this site an enjoyable place to talk Mavericks. However, I believe that the manner in which you choose to debate is not conducive to debate. It is only conducive to confrontation.

Therefore, I do wish that you could work on finding a way to alter your style of writing so that we could incorporate more debate and slightly less confrontation. Yes, I am one that thrives on confrontation and debate, but there must be a gentle balance between the two.

I hope that you will think about what I have said. I would also like to extend an invitation to help you in any way necessary if need be. I am more than willing to tutor you on how to slightly change your writing style to better suit the needs of both yourself and the board. It would sincerely be my pleasure.

[sike]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
TwoDeep, I truly do enjoy reading what you have to say. I must say that I do wish that it was slightly less confrontational. Yes, I believe that we would all agree that confrontation and debate are two things that do make this site an enjoyable place to talk Mavericks. However, I believe that the manner in which you choose to debate is not conducive to debate. It is only conducive to confrontation.
Therefore, I do wish that you could work on finding a way to alter your style of writing so that we could incorporate more debate and slightly less confrontation. Yes, I am one that thrives on confrontation and debate, but there must be a gentle balance between the two.
I hope that you will think about what I have said. I would also like to extend an invitation to help you in any way necessary if need be. I am more than willing to tutor you on how to slightly change your writing style to better suit the needs of both yourself and the board. It would sincerely be my pleasure.

murph "the Gandhi of D-M.com" has extended the olive branch of peace [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

also, TwoDeep, pointing fingers at D-M members is certainly a strawman argument...

plus, none of your opinions are original in the least (this is not an attack, just a comment from someone who reads most of the posts on this forum)...there are countless members here who would love to see Dirk take a more verbal role in the leadership of this team. And no one would enjoy seeing him in the paint more than I. I can agree with you that it would wonderful for Dirk to be more physical, but he did almost average double didgit boards a couple seasons ago and over eight a game this season and that requires a degree of physical play...and dont play the "a seven footer gets rebounds just standing there" card...cause we both know that is not ture.

Is dirk soft? Of course this is a totally subjective question and no argument should go down without an agreed upon definition. Like dude pointed out earlier in this thread, if Duncan is soft...then dirk is certainly as well, but still, what is soft?
so without definitions for words like "leadership" and "soft" you and all others are wasting time...but hey, I for one would love to read you post more...just kill the finger pointing and stick to the rational argumentation.

[TwoDeep3]

Therefore, I do wish that you could work on finding a way to alter your style of writing so that we could incorporate more debate and slightly less confrontation

Murphy, your sanctimonious manure is laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Now review my original post in this thread and your first response.

I merely stated my opinion. The team needs a leader such as Shaq.

Your reply was ridicule. Nothing more.

Go back and read it for yourself.

Then lecture me on confrontational posts.

You throw rocks, then complain about the cracks in your glass house.

I would be amazed but it is business as usual for you.

[Murphy3]

My house is brick.

[MavKikiNYC]

That lady's stacked, and that's a fact.

[grndmstr_c]

She's lettin' it all hang out.