Dirty Dirk

[Chef Ed]

Erica what's your problem.

If you think I'm going to sit here and continue this crap from you, your mistaken. My comment was to Max, and I don't think that includes you.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: Chef Ed
Erica what's your problem.

If you think I'm going to sit here and continue this crap from you, your mistaken.

Bye!

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Chef Ed
Max,
Isn't that what Dirk did last year when he called the team, his coach, and his owner out after a loss, and wasn't Dirk that stepped up his game after he made the comments he did?

If that isn't forcing the issue I'm not sure what is.

Are you talking about the April where Dirk averaged less points than March (21.4 vs 23.3), less rebounds (8.1 vs 8.8), more turnovers (1.8 vs 1.4), less steals (.9 vs 1.7)? To his credit he did have a drop in assists (2.3 vs 2.4) and an increase in shooting percentage and three point percentage. Dirk didn't step up his game in any real way - it was all fanboy perception.

And the comment that Dirk made was REALLY lightweight. It was a decent beginning but Dirk didn't establish any turf with it.

[mary]

How many All-Stars (besides Dirk) are on that German team? How many NBA players (besides Dirk) are on that German team? OF COURSE Dirk is going to be the dominant player. He is light years better than any other player on the team. The Mavs actually have some talent on their squad.

Max, that's a good point and probably the one that was the most overlooked in this entire discussion. Not to discount his performance, I thought he looked amazing - but if I recall even TAW looked like an amazing player last year on his French team. I don't recall too many people drawing grandeur conclusions form that [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Who is arguing that he hasn't?

Uh, I would guess the person who his comment was directed at (Max).

Originally posted by: Max Power

If Finley tries to step aside and Dirk still wants to defer then the team will crater. Because you are ASSUMING that Dirk wants to be a leader of the Mavs - I have seen very little to support that view.

[Some Guy]

You people must really hate this guy. Seems like you are going out of your way to misinterpret what he was saying.

If someone else said the same thing, would you all be reacting like this?

[Some Guy]

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley

I know I don't want Dirk leading the team if he's afraid to step on some toes. Whether it's Finley, Nelson, Donnie, Cuban, or the water boy for not delivering his gatorade sooner.

"It is not in the nature of politics that the best men should be elected. The best men do not want to govern their fellowmen. " --George MacDonald


I don't want a leader whose main concern is being the leader. I don't want a leader who is willing to "step on some toes" to become the leader.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Chef Ed
Erica what's your problem.

If you think I'm going to sit here and continue this crap from you, your mistaken. My comment was to Max, and I don't think that includes you.

This from the one who started the self serving codependent thread?


wow. For someone who claims to espouse open forum that is pretty short sighted, especially since all Erica did was ask a question. Does someone need thicker skin?

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Chef Ed
Erica what's your problem.

If you think I'm going to sit here and continue this crap from you, your mistaken. My comment was to Max, and I don't think that includes you.

What "crap" did she give you? She asked you a rather simple question. Can you answer it?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

What "crap" did she give you? She asked you a rather simple question. Can you answer it?

I am not taking up for Ed or putting Erica down or anything, but she was a bit harsh to the guy. She doesnt even know the guy personally like a lot of you long-time guys do... Posts like these:

There are multiple reasons Chef Ed isnt on D-M.com, and one of them is his writing.

He'd rather hang out with Roofus and other posters

I'd personally rather feel like a moron surrounded by smart people.

you really are dumb arent you? You try to come in and piss people off and argue and then in your next post you try to take high ground and claim that you don't want to spar? Hilarious.

Eminem would be rolling in his grave.


I mean seriously, how do you expect the guy not to get a bit pissed... Come on KG and all others currently knocking Ed for barking... I dont know the history so some might be more bitter than others, but how can Ed be knocked and the above opinions be allowed???

[EricaLubarsky]

Male, you took most of those comments out of context.

There are multiple reasons Chef Ed isnt on D-M.com, and one of them is his writing.

This was before Ed was at the site. There wouldnt be a problem with it if I had said the same about Vecsey.

He'd rather hang out with Roofus and other posters

Seriously, this is a comment on how annoying the posters are at DB.com. Roofus makes even the worst troll here look amazing.

I'd personally rather feel like a moron surrounded by smart people.

This was a poke at Ed, but the word moron was not directed at Ed. I was pointing out that I like to be surrounded by posters smarter than myself. Ed may be the only decently intelligent person on DB.com

you really are dumb arent you? You try to come in and piss people off and argue and then in your next post you try to take high ground and claim that you don't want to spar? Hilarious.

Sorry about the dumb thing, but I stand by the rest. He was still taking jabs and trying to get people going.

Eminem would be rolling in his grave.

I thought it was funny. I don't see how that is a jab at him, it was a jab at the statement he made that there isnt such a thing as bad publicity.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Male, you took most of those comments out of context.

This was before Ed was at the site. There wouldnt be a problem with it if I had said the same about Vecsey.

Seriously, this is a comment on how annoying the posters are at DB.com. Roofus makes even the worst troll here look amazing.

This was a poke at Ed, but the word moron was not directed at Ed. I was pointing out that I like to be surrounded by posters smarter than myself. Ed may be the only decently intelligent person on DB.com

Sorry about the dumb thing, but I stand by the rest. He was still taking jabs and trying to get people going.

I thought it was funny. I don't see how that is a jab at him, it was a jab at the statement he made that there isnt such a thing as bad publicity.

EL... I like you a good bit, you are a very quality poster here; however, the bottom line is that several statements were rude, and frankly uncalled for. Ed would then post something else, and you would chime in... He then posted something to Max, and again you questioned him, (rightfully so mind you, but my point was that you gave him plenty of "crap" to make him get pissed). Again, I am not knocking you or supporting Ed, I am just stepping back and looking at what happened from an UNBIASED standpoint... Regarding the specifics of each example I posted:

There are multiple reasons Chef Ed isnt on D-M.com, and one of them is his writing.

This was before Ed was at the site. There wouldnt be a problem with it if I had said the same about Vecsey.
Does that make it any less rude? Any more factual? Keep in mind that Vecsey likely NEVER reads what is posted here where someone like Ed might browse and read stuff here all of the time

He'd rather hang out with Roofus and other posters

Seriously, this is a comment on how annoying the posters are at DB.com. Roofus makes even the worst troll here look amazing.
I can understand that your statement here has the main subject being Roofus; however, your still grouping Ed with an "annoying poster that makes even the worst troll here look amazing!"

I'd personally rather feel like a moron surrounded by smart people.

This was a poke at Ed, but the word moron was not directed at Ed. I was pointing out that I like to be surrounded by posters smarter than myself. Ed may be the only decently intelligent person on DB.com
Again, not directly pointed at Ed, but again you are clasifying Ed with bad posters at DB.com

you really are dumb arent you? You try to come in and piss people off and argue and then in your next post you try to take high ground and claim that you don't want to spar? Hilarious.

Sorry about the dumb thing, but I stand by the rest. He was still taking jabs and trying to get people going.
This one needs no explanation [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Eminem would be rolling in his grave.

I thought it was funny. I don't see how that is a jab at him, it was a jab at the statement he made that there isnt such a thing as bad publicity.[/quote]
Now this is me taking it out of context, so sorry!

Again, I dont mean to put my two cents in where its not needed, but I was responding to KG's question of WHAT CRAP... I felt there was indeed a few times he had been attacked/insulted and thats why he got pissed...

Anyway!

[mavsman55]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
This may be stupid, but I would always rather have the open man or the man with the best position take the final shot.

No. Not stupid at all. In last-second situations, Dirk will most likely be double-teamed most of the time. He's not going to be able to shoot over two guys and hit the game-tying shot every day like he did against USA on Wednesday. Either the open man or the man who's hot from the field should be taking that shot.

Ed, I understand where you're coming from with your arguments here, but you have to look at the big picture: The only reason Dirk ever claimed that Mike is the "leader" of this team is because if he were to say otherwise, he would come off sounding selfish. Dirk is not a selfish player in the least bit. Everybody on this team, including Finley, knows that Dirk is the leader/best player on this team.

However, in terms of Finley stepping down and let Dirk take over, that happened quite a few years ago. When the other good players on the team "step down" and let just one other person take over, you end up with situations like Orlando's last year where you have one great team leader and win 21 games. Finley can't really step down... we need everybody on this team to play their hardest and do everything they can to help this team win. Dirk can still get 20+ shots per game with everyone else landing their share of shots. And don't forget, Dirk has bad games here and there so we can't rely solely on him every night to score the majority of our points.

Dirk should be the first option without a question, but he needs players to fall back on when he's cold from the field, and these players can't be "stepping down".

In terms of the rest of your article, keep trying and keep your head up high. Not everyone here agrees with you but I'm sure even the best sports columnists have had controversial articles and have been bashed here and there.

[Chef Ed]

Mavsman thank you for the words. It's posters like you that will keep me coming to the site more often.

As far as the Dirk deal. Follow me if you will because maybe I'm not defining what this is about, or maybe I am and everyone is tired of hearing about it. Probably a little of both, but again it just seems nothing is done about it.

When it comes down to the last second shot, depending on who is on the floor during that time the opposing team has defensive priorities. I'm sure all of you agree with that. Nothing new there. The team that has the ball usually has first option, second and so forth to whom is going to get that last shot.

My point is that during the last several years it is very rare that Dirk ends up having the ball in his hands. Again nothing new there. But that seems to be because that every team knows that the best shooter on this team is Dirk so therefore Nellie has defered to other players that are on the floor.

My point about Wen was that everyone in the building watching the game, as well as everyone watching on TV, and especially the US players and Larry Brown all knew that Dirk was going to end up with the ball, yet what happened? Dirk made the shot.

Didn't matter whom was guarding him, not matter if the was one on one defensive coverage or he was double teamed, he still made the shot.

Now the point again is that if he can do this against the US Olympic team then why can't he do that against the rest of the teams in the NBA? And again, why doesn't Don Nelson realize this and no matter what finds a way to get Dirk the ball, which very rarely happens.

Now the other question that I keep bring up, but no one wants to address is why does Dirk never get his hands on the ball at the end of the game? And please to anyone that wants to continue this, he doesn't. If he did the boards wouldn't be filled with Finley threads.

[chumdawg]

Chef, riddle me this: what if Dirk had MISSED the shot? By your logic, you would have to say that Dirk should not, then, receive the ball in such a situation. I mean, especially since the guys on his Mavs team will presumably have much more to offer themselves than the guys who were on his German team.

Realize that you are staking your entire argument on the basis of Dirk's having made that shot. Your logical points conspire against you if he had missed.

Put it another way: in that one game against Sacramento, Dirk wasn't the ONLY option on the floor. No one knew for sure that he would get the ball. For that matter, Fin and Nash both had received the ball in the two similar circumstances that came before. So if Dirk was playing the Kings, with Peja guarding him (presumably an easier task than playing against the USA nationals), and if his opponents couldn't be sure he would get the ball (presumably preventing an immediate double-team), and if some of his teams presumably could be considered reasonable alternatives to take the last shot...and he STILL MISSED IT, then how in the good hell can Nelson ever go to him again in that situation??????

I hope this makes you see that neither of these arguments has any merit on its own. You are trying to simplify an issue that isn't nearly that simple.

[Charlie Brown]

if Don Nelson keeps giving Dirk the ball at the end of games, Don Nelson does not receive any credit for winning a game. it has to be Don Nelson's creativity that wins the game for the Mavs. Don Nelson, Don Nelson, Don Nelson. is he still coach of the Mavs?

[Chef Ed]

Chumdawg there is more to it than him just making the shot. The entire game he demanded the ball. He dictated play to his teammates. I.E. he led. That is a big part of this. It isn't just him making the shot, all thought your point is very valid, but he did, and therefor showed he is capable of doing it.

How will we ever know what Dirk is capable unless Nellie puts him in the position to do so.

Dirk showed a lot more in that game than is being discussed. So maybe I am putting a lot into an exibition game, but the US had to win that game to save face, and Dirk almost made them pay. That says a lot in itself.

[Chiwas]

How will we ever know what Dirk is capable unless Nellie puts him in the position to do so.

We already know what Dirk is capable of, we saw it during three seasons till the wasted last one, even not being fed well, he played normally the 3-4 position, at the elbow, where he plays his best.

[Chef Ed]

Your right. We do know this. And yea, we have known this for the last couple of years, so I go back to the question at hand my friend. Why doesn't someone(Nellie,Finley) do something about it?

The funny part about this entire thread is that we all know, and have known what Dirk is capable, but the Maverick's don't seem to either allow him to do so, or won't push the issue, and that is where my problem stems with Nelson.

I like Nellie a lot, and am very glad he is our coach, but now is the time that he really force the issue with Dirk, and don't mean just a pat on the butt, but really force him take charge. On the floor and in the lockerroom.

[Charlie Brown]

there's four reasons why I think Dirk's leadership progress has been very slow -- 1) youth 2) Nash and Finley 3) language barrier and 4) Nelson.

1) Age. Nowitzki was only 19 yrs old when he came to the Mavs. I'm sure that due to his young age, he felt he had to defer to the older players on the team in his first couple seasons, which brings us to . . .

2) Finley and Nash. These guys weren't just any old veterans. Fin was in his prime, the captain of the team, and was an all-star in Dirk's first couple seasons. The same way Duncan was careful not to step on Robinson's toes early on, Dirk was definitely not going to undermine Fin's leadership. Nash, on the otherhand, played the older brother to Dirk the same way Vlade played older brother to Peja. because of this, i believe Dirk felt a lot of respect towards Nash on and off the court. In order to fit in and respect Fin and Nash, I'm sure Dirk kept his ego in check. however, I do agree with Chef Ed that Fin does need to step aside here and vocally hand the torch over to Dirk. Walker did it to Pierce, Robinson did it to Duncan, but Fin has yet to do this, i.e. both Walker and Robinson stated to the media that the Pierce and Duncan were the leaders and go-to guys of their respective teams.

3) Language. When Dirk first came to the Mavs, from what I could recall, he only knew a couple of words in English. So this isn't like Carmelo Anthony coming to the Nuggets . . . how can someone who's not fluent in English become a vocal leader on the team so quickly. Because of this reticence, I'm sure Dirk developed a reputation for being laid back and just wanting to fit in. I think he's become more comfortable with his English in only the last two years to the point where he's not afraid to speak up and take a more vocal role on this team, but . . .

4) Nelson screwed it up. Last season was really the season where Dirk was supposed to break out as the leader and go-to guy of this team. Fin and Nash had shown signs of slowing down, age and language were not as big of a factor, etc. BUT Nelson brought in Jamison and Walker, two more egos to get the ball out of Dirk's hands and make sure that this was Nelson's team, not Dirk's.

anyways, i'm really excited about this year, because finally, all the elements seem to be in place for Dirk to finally take control of this team. we'll see if it happens.

[mavsman55]

Originally posted by: Chef Ed
Your right. We do know this. And yea, we have known this for the last couple of years, so I go back to the question at hand my friend. Why doesn't someone(Nellie,Finley) do something about it?

The funny part about this entire thread is that we all know, and have known what Dirk is capable, but the Maverick's don't seem to either allow him to do so, or won't push the issue, and that is where my problem stems with Nelson.

I like Nellie a lot, and am very glad he is our coach, but now is the time that he really force the issue with Dirk, and don't mean just a pat on the butt, but really force him take charge. On the floor and in the lockerroom.

Chef, I'm excited to see how Dirk will react to Nash's departure this year. Will he step it up and dominate like he did on Wednesday or will he let other players slow him down like he did last year with Walker? With the new arrival of Jason Terry I'm kind of anxious to see how much Dirk will actually get the ball. A lineup of Terry/Harris, Daniels/Finley, J-Ho/Stack, Dirk/Henderson and Booth/Bradley/M'Benga will be very talented offensively (not to mention defensively) and knowing Don Nelson, the offense will be run through everyone (which isn't a problem, as long as Dirk still gets his shots). So up to this point I haven't been worried about Dirk's progress... the real test starts at the beginning of next season for Don Nelson to run a good chunk of the offense through Dirk in spite of Terry, Finley and Stackhouse being on the floor with him.

[MavsFanFinley]

Be honest. How many people would tell their coach..."no, I can't take the last shot. I'm not the best player on the team. You need to be feeding the ball to X every time." How much respect and support would you get from the coach and teammates then?

Who knows if Nelson would then draw the play up for Dirk instead of Terry, Stackhouse, Daniels, or whoever?

How do we know Finley hasn't had his little talk with Dirk or the team at large? Is he supposed to hold a press conference or just issue a statement through the Dallas Morning News? If he made public comments of this nature, he'd probably be laughed all the way to the bench each game.

[dmavsfan]

I think that the #1 problem is the coaching. Any other good coach would love to have Dirk and would have already thrown him into all the 4th quarter situations and got him better on D. Dirk's shot the other night was better than Iverson's because Dirk was shooting to tie the game in front of his homecrowd. Iverson had no pressure, because if he missed it didn't matter too much. Plus too much is made of the last shot. Many other shots and plays are made at both ends of the court during the whole game (and in the last minute). Even the very best players miss shots at the end. Who cares! Dirk's numbers over 5 years (especially in the playoffs) show that he is an elite player at all times in the game. He does not have to PROVE himself to anyone. Nelson is over rated in my book.

[Chef Ed]

A lot of questions can be raised by all of this.

1. How long it's going to take Dirk and Terry to get on the same page, as well as Daniels especially if he ends up starting. Daniels is a very good player, but some felt last season he took too many shots and if that is the case, will he defer to Dirk more than he feels the need to shoot?

2. How long it takes Devin to mature into the PG we all hope he ends up being? The first question has more impact because Terrry will stay the starter unless he gets hurt, or Devin just explodes during the first part of the season.

3. Again I don't think a press conference is required for the change, but we have herd in the press over and over Dirk saying that this is Finleys team, and maybe the roll needs to be reversed and Finley needs to start being more vocal in this area.


4. One of the biggest assets and failures on this team is that we have always had so many qualified shooters that it is always difficult to really identify a solid go to guy. Minn has KG, and LA has Kobe, and now Houston has Tmac. Philly has Iverson, and so forth, but when you talk about Dallas it has always been the "Big Three". Granted it has worked in the past but now it seems to me that Dallas needs to identify a go to guy all the time and that guy needs to be Dirk.

I too am also very excited about what is in store for this team long term. But the short term, I.E. the next two years is making me nervous. All the change is pointing towards the future of this team and that obviously is a good thing, but the short term could be rough depending on what happens in the next couple of weeks.

But your right. Dallas is younger and more athletic and should be more exciting. The key word is should.

[basketball jonessss]

Now the point again is that if he can do this against the US Olympic team then why can't he do that against the rest of the teams in the NBA? And again, why doesn't Don Nelson realize this and no matter what finds a way to get Dirk the ball, which very rarely happens.

Nelson doesn't realize this because he is keeping his record intact.

WHY CAN'T NELSON REALIZE:

Bradley is one of the best defensive centers in the NBA

Finley is very inconsistent at SF

Fortson was totally under utilized and is a force to be dealt with.

Defense is half the game.

Small ball will not consistently work - no defense or rebounding.

etc..........................................

[EricaLubarsky]

It may have been for the wrong reasons but IMO Nelson was right in playing Fortson limited minutes. Fortson may be better this year but when every player on the floor is a step slow on defense you can't have an undersized, non-shotblocking center who is too slow to play. Fortson was our best big body out there playing man to man defense but getting killed at the 5 wasnt the main problem.

Which leads me to wonder why Bradley didn't play much. He is a perfect center that will guard the 1-4s that slip through the defense.

[Day1MavsFan]

Mavsman, Erica-
It isn't about Dirk taking the shot necessarily. It's about the ball going through him and drawing a double-team, which is very important. Finley won't get the double-team and therefore has to take that off-balance fadaway 20-footer, or pass to a covered man. The point is to let Dirk get the ball and make the play, whether that means getting a really good look w/o the double-team, or splitting the double-team and putting it up, or instead passing the ball to the open man. This way, either Dirk shoots, or an open man shoots. That's what we want.

Also, Ed's post was not about "stepping down" on the court; it was about "stepping down" in the lockeroom.

MFF-
You're right, no way does he tell the coach "no". We don't know what talks have occurred, but Fin could state something publicly and not be laughed at, 'cuz it'd be true. And this would open the door for Dirk. That's all anyone is saying he could do. It is definitely not his fault.

Chummie-
Nellie continues to go to Fin, despite all the misses, so he certainly could continue to go to Dirk if he missed one.

dmavsfan-
You hit the nail...


I think that this game did NOT show us anything new in Dirk's abilities in the crunch. But, I DO think that it brings the issue to the forefront being that it was a primetime example of his ability and a really top-notch display. Maybe it does put pressure on Nellie to lean more on Dirk because it was on the world stage for all to see, and everyone will be talking about it, including TV commentators, this coming season.

[Chiwas]

...but when you talk about Dallas it has always been the "Big Three".

My same feeling.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: Chiwas

My same feeling.

I think always is a stretch... I remember fairly well the days of the big NADA!!! Talk about nothing in your bag... When your best player is a toss up between Izzy and Davis, your in trouble!!!

[MavsFanFinley]

Also, Ed's post was not about "stepping down" on the court; it was about "stepping down" in the lockeroom.

Then his article makes even less sense. If that's possible. There must be a reason the players/coaches look to Finley to keep things steady other than he's the one who has been here the longest.

What do people think Avery Johnson is being brought on board for? He runs the players only practices, gives speeches and pep talks when the team is turned around. He's also here to sit next to Nelson and help coach the team. If anything, he's going to be a more dominant presence in the locker room than anyone else. Should we hold off on that signing so we don't put another player in Dirk's way?

[EricaLubarsky]

Cut AJ! Cut AJ!!!! We can't have both Finley and Johnson getting in the way of Nowitzki's leadership! [img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]

Seriously though, AJ is probably the most inspirational and charismatic player in the game today. I got to shake hands with him last season after a Mavs@Suns game and he was just inspiring and as nice as can be. I can really see him smoothing over chemistry issues and getting players on the same page. I think we missed that last year in 41 road games.

Do we still need a leader on the court? I dunno, but I feel a lot better with Johnson here.

[dmavsfan]

I think that it is rediculous to blame Finley in any way. Let Finley be the team leader. So what !....it does not stop Dirk in any way. Any time I have seen or heard Finley he has shown himself a great team leader. I think Dirk's personality is a perfect fit for Finley's. They work together very well.

[mapape]

Chef Ed may not be able to write the best but he did make some good points. He tried hard and didnt deserve all of the hate that he got for doing a job that he isnt paid for. good job Ed! (Finley does need to stop taking the last shot all the time)