What to expect in 2004-2005

[grndmstr_c]

Some rampant Finley underappreciating going on lately. For my part I'll be borderline shocked if our best lineup next year doesn't have Finley in it. I'm in favor of letting the other guys take a shot at winning a starting spot from him, I just don't see it happening. Fin's by far the best shooter at the 2/3, he's probably the most mature player at the 2/3, and he probably understands better than ANYBODY else on the team how to play with Dirk. The only question I really have is which of the other 3 guys (assuming they're the ones we go into the season with) is going to bring the best combination of defense, rebounding, and intelligent offensive play to compliment Terry, Fin, Dirk, and Dampier.

[EricaLubarsky]

I'm in favor of letting the other guys take a shot at winning a starting spot from him

I'm not. He does a lot more than stats can show. Unless he comes back overweight and with a bad attitude he is a lock for one of the starting positions.

[Chef Ed]

Dallas has a much more conventional look about them and with the loss of Shaq on the Lakers it makes the Dampier deal that much more important. The long term look of the Mavericks is very bright, but the short term is very questionable. How long it takes these guys to learn to play together is the only question I have for them.

As stupid as it sound Xmas will be a good mark for this team this year. What they look like by that time will give us better idea on expectations for this team. Long term and especially short term. So I'm really looking forward to the Holidays, and especially the month of January. The schedule really is in favor the Mavs during January and by that time the team should be on the same page and make a nice push into the playoffs.

[grndmstr_c]

I'm not. He does a lot more than stats can show. Unless he comes back overweight and with a bad attitude he is a lock for one of the starting positions.

How is this different than what I said?

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

How is this different than what I said?

I'm not willing to even give other players a chance, I guess. My opinion really isnt much different.

[Chef Ed]

Grandmaster,
I don't think there is an underappreciation for Mike. I think that some feel that he needs to step aside as the leader of the Mavericks and allow Dirk to take on that roll, but I don't think it has to do with talent. I agree that Mike needs to start. Especially now, but again, I have also suggested that he would make a wonderful 6th man. I don't think that is not appreciating what Mike brings to the table but something that would ensure that he remain a Maverick till the end of his career which is something that I want to see him do.

But there is going to be time that Mike has to step asside and allow the youth movement on the Mavericks to take over, and it would be better for him and the Mavericks if he did it on his own and not by force. It would go further if he did it, and not have to be demoted. That can be very humbling and some can't deal with it. I don't want that to happen to Mike.

[grndmstr_c]

Underappreciation of Mike is one of the favorite pastimes of a number of posters on this site. The comments I'm making reference to have nothing to do with Mike stepping aside as leader. That's a completely separate issue. What I'm talking about are the criticisms of what he does on the court, which are, IMO, off base far more often than not. I sincerely hope that Quis and/or Josh will deservedly win Fin's spot in the Mavericks' starting rotation eventually, but they, and Stack, have plenty to prove before that should even be a debate. None of them have shown that they are Fin's equal in terms of what they are capable of doing to help the Mavs win.

[MavsFanFinley]

I love Fin Dawg, but you gotta start Stack for one reason - he goes TO THE HOLE.

So does Dirk, Daniels, and Terry. And Howard if he gets the start. Who's going to hit the outside shot for us?

[Fah Q]

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley

So does Dirk, Daniels, and Terry. And Howard if he gets the start. Who's going to hit the outside shot for us?

Your completley right. I've struggled with the thought of Fin being the 6th man for awhile and I've come to the conclusion that Fin should start.

Do you want Terry sitting on the perimeter shooting instead of dribbling in the lane and freeing up shooters?

Do you want Dirk sitting on the perimeter shooting instead of posting up defenders?

Do you want Quis sitting on the perimeter shooting where he isn't a very good shooter to begin with instead of him taking it inside?

I see the arguement for Fin to be the 6th man because of his shooting ability off the bench but if don't have a shooter in your starting five whats the point of having one coming off the bench? Finally Fin is exactly what this team needs at the 3. Last year I didn't like him at the 3 because of his suspect D and handles but this year we have a true center in the middle to cover for his shortcomings on D(which aren't as bad as some may say but he isn't great by any means) and he dosen't need graet handles because the perfect role for him is to be set shooter who occasionally goes to the rack which is his specialty.

I honestly can't think of a better role for Finley. Granted, I want Josh and Stack to get some minutes but I don't think this team would be as good without Fin starting and getting atleast 35 minutes a game.

[fin4life]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Fah Q

Your completley right. I've struggled with the thought of Fin being the 6th man for awhile and I've come to the conclusion that Fin should start.

Do you want Terry sitting on the perimeter shooting instead of dribbling in the lane and freeing up shooters?

Do you want Dirk sitting on the perimeter shooting instead of posting up defenders?

Do you want Quis sitting on the perimeter shooting where he isn't a very good shooter to begin with instead of him taking it inside?

I see the arguement for Fin to be the 6th man because of his shooting ability off the bench but if don't have a shooter in your starting five whats the point of having one coming off the bench? Finally Fin is exactly what this team needs at the 3. Last year I didn't like him at the 3 because of his suspect D and handles but this year we have a true center in the middle to cover for his shortcomings on D(which aren't as bad as some may say but he isn't great by any means) and he dosen't need graet handles because the perfect role for him is to be set shooter who occasionally goes to the rack which is his specialty.

I honestly can't think of a better role for Finley. Granted, I want Josh and Stack to get some minutes but I don't think this team would be as good without Fin starting and getting atleast 35 minutes a game.

Very well said. I think Finley will have a great year and finish 2nd on the team in scoring while finishing #1 in our hearts... well at least some of ours.

[Chef Ed]

There is nothing that Michael can do that will every change my thoughts on him as a Dallas Maverick. He will always be my favorite Mavericks and the respect I have for him for all the crap he has taken from the media and the fans since he came here is something that I will always respect him for. He is one of those players that have the heart the size of Texas and the loyalty that just doesn't exist in the NBA anymore.

With that said, having Finley start this season is a must because of the youth and the lack of chemistry with the starting 5. Dirk and Finley will be very critical in the adjustments that Terry and Dampier will have to make and quickly. So Finley has to start from that standpoint, but the 6th man suggestions won't go away..

There are a lot of people that love to hate on Finley, especially because of his contract, but for some of us he is the heart and sole of this franchise and you just don't throw that away because in the end you never know where you will find it again. So in order to keep Mike around until his contract is over and try and salvage as much out of him as we possible can with his age and his injuries his best bet will be to eventually move to the bench as the 6th man. Not this year, and probably not next year, but after that he is going to have to move there to stay here.

And for me having Michael stay here until the end of his career is a prioritiy in my mind. His number needs to be retired and I want to see him win the championship as a Maverick.

[Murphy3]

Personally, I really don't think that fin receives nearly the criticism that some claim that he receives.

Anyways, I can see the Mavs needing an outside sharpshooter in the starting lineup (assuming dirk will be used a bit more down low)..Fin's definitely a starter as far as I'm concerned. You've got to have someone on the outside that will make other team's pay for doubling Dirk.

[dalmations202]

With Dampier in the game, I don't see Dirk down low. IMO, he will be used in the pick and role, and for a high post, and face ups on the perimeter.

Fin will probably be a spot up shooter in the corners. Damp will be offside rebounder, and pick setter on the backside. Daniels/Howard will probably be the offside cutter and some post-ups on mismatches. All and all -- not a bad offensive lineup at all.

On defense, they should be pretty good as well. They have enough talent to play man- man again. The only position that I see that might hurt them pretty bad is the larger SF's, who can shoot perimeter, and post/shoot over the smaller SF's on this team.

Terry/Harris/Daniels should be able to cover any guards in the league.
Fin/Daniels/Terry/Howard/Stack should be able to cover any SG/SF's except the larger/taller SF's (Peja, Kirilenko, RLewis).
Nowitzki/Dampier/Bradley/Booth -- should be able to cover anyone not named Shaq pretty well.

[Murphy3]

Why do you not see Dirk down low? No, he won't spend the majority of the time there by any means, but I find it difficult to believe that he won't spend more time down low offensively than he did last year.

[Just211]

in 2004-05 I see a lot of defensive intensity. WE have they depth to pressure the ball all game. Other than Dirk, we're 2 deep at every position. In all reality you could see FIN/STACK/QUISE/HARRIS/DANIELSand TERRY all avg 24 minutes of all out hustle a game. I know it won't work exactly like that, but we have the tools to do it. And with 4 options at Center(DAMP/BOOTH/SHAWN/DJ) they should always be a shotblocking threat backing these guys up.

[WildBill]

Here is how I see it:

Terry - 36 minutes /Harris - 12 minutes/ 0 minutes Daniels
Stackhouse - 36 minutes / Daniels - 12 minutes / Howard - 0 minutes
Finley - 36 minutes /Howard - 12 minutes / Henderson - 0 minutes
Novitsky - 36 minutes /Henderson - 12 minutes /DJ - 0 minutes
Dampier - 28 minutes /Bradley - 20 minutes /Booth - 0 minutes


Observations:

The glaring need is at Power forward. We are reaching to make one of our centers into the backup or to rely on Henderson. So the mavs need to package a center and Henderson to get a true Novitsky backup.

It is exciting that we have Harris, Daniels, Howard and DJ as our future, with Novitsky as our pivot point in both the present and future lineup.

So DJ and Booth sit at the end of the bench.

[V2M]

I like Daniels' game but I believe he came under the radar last year. He benefitted from the fact that he had four big-time scorers on his team all the times and he was the undrafted rookie. This year he got the contract and all the press and people will scout him better. It won't be as easy as last year, IMO. I hope he proves me wrong, though.

Ideally, I'd like Stack to revert back to his form of 2 years back and claim the starting SG spot. Then we'd have a 10-man lineup of:

Terry/Harris
Stack/Daniels
Fin/Howard
Dirk/Booth
Damp/Bradley

Benga, Dickau & Pavel get situational minutes. Hendu, Esch and TAW on the IR. Step & Flores to Europe. AJ to be Asst. Coach.

[Just211]

Henderson 20 minutes I don't think so buddy.
henderson won't sniff the court

[The Hammer]

Originally posted by: V2M
I like Daniels' game but I believe he came under the radar last year. He benefitted from the fact that he had four big-time scorers on his team all the times and he was the undrafted rookie. This year he got the contract and all the press and people will scout him better. It won't be as easy as last year, IMO. I hope he proves me wrong, though.

Ideally, I'd like Stack to revert back to his form of 2 years back and claim the starting SG spot. Then we'd have a 10-man lineup of:

Terry/Harris
Stack/Daniels
Fin/Howard
Dirk/Booth
Damp/Bradley

Benga, Dickau & Pavel get situational minutes. Hendu, Esch and TAW on the IR. Step & Flores to Europe. AJ to be Asst. Coach.

That gives us a 13 man roster with a full IR. Which player(s) won't be on the team?
My guess--Dump Hendu + $3M for a 2nd rounder + a trade exception to anyone under the cap who can take him and park him on IR. We save the Luxury tax, and they (after insurance) sell a 2nd rounder for a couple million. Pavel goes to IR.
I still don't think we're done dealing at that point.

[V2M]

Originally posted by: The Hammer

That gives us a 13 man roster with a full IR. Which player(s) won't be on the team?
My guess--Dump Hendu + $3M for a 2nd rounder + a trade exception to anyone under the cap who can take him and park him on IR. We save the Luxury tax, and they (after insurance) sell a 2nd rounder for a couple million. Pavel goes to IR.
I still don't think we're done dealing at that point.

Oops, my bad. You're right, either we got another trade coming or Cuban's gotta' eat a contract and dump someone.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Why do you not see Dirk down low? No, he won't spend the majority of the time there by any means, but I find it difficult to believe that he won't spend more time down low offensively than he did last year.

I'm sure he will spend some time down there, but you aren't going to move Damp outside much at all, so it will be a little congested down there with Dirk and Damp down there. If Booth or Bradley are in the game, and he has a mismatch, I think he will play down there a little, but I doubt it with Damp in the game (which I expect about 30m a game).

Also, there are many defenders in the league that can guard Dirk's post moves, but almost none that can guard him out on the floor. This is why he is so dangerous an offensive weapon. He can drive, post, and shoot from anywhere, but if you had to rate him on effectiveness, IMO his post game is the weaker part of his game.

I would have him on the high post, in pick and roll position. This is a place that he thrives. Give him the ball and let him shoot, drive, or give-n-go. Next time pick for him, and the next let Terry pick off him. Use Damp as an offside rebounder, flash post (if he is in a mismatch), offside screener for Daniels. Use Fin as a spot up shooter in either corner, and as a backside cutter.

The offense for these guys is easy to set up, and terribly hard to defend. It would hinge around Dirk getting the ball from the high post position, and making the right decision of whether to shoot, drive, pass to cutters, recognize the mismatch on Damp. This is basically what they do with TD, except they keep him at the elbow.

[sike]

Originally posted by: dalmations202

I'm sure he will spend some time down there, but you aren't going to move Damp outside much at all, so it will be a little congested down there with Dirk and Damp down there. If Booth or Bradley are in the game, and he has a mismatch, I think he will play down there a little, but I doubt it with Damp in the game (which I expect about 30m a game).

Also, there are many defenders in the league that can guard Dirk's post moves, but almost none that can guard him out on the floor. This is why he is so dangerous an offensive weapon. He can drive, post, and shoot from anywhere, but if you had to rate him on effectiveness, IMO his post game is the weaker part of his game.

I would have him on the high post, in pick and roll position. This is a place that he thrives. Give him the ball and let him shoot, drive, or give-n-go. Next time pick for him, and the next let Terry pick off him. Use Damp as an offside rebounder, flash post (if he is in a mismatch), offside screener for Daniels. Use Fin as a spot up shooter in either corner, and as a backside cutter.

The offense for these guys is easy to set up, and terribly hard to defend. It would hinge around Dirk getting the ball from the high post position, and making the right decision of whether to shoot, drive, pass to cutters, recognize the mismatch on Damp. This is basically what they do with TD, except they keep him at the elbow.

I can envision a high low game like Robinson and Duncan perfected a few years back….this play places the ball in Dirk’s hands and gives him the options of a quick 15 footer, one dribble and pull up for a ten footer, a fade away, a quick pass to the low post, or a dish to a cutter or three point shooter(terry or finley)

[fin4life]

Originally posted by: WildBill
Here is how I see it:

Terry - 36 minutes /Harris - 12 minutes/ 0 minutes Daniels
Stackhouse - 36 minutes / Daniels - 12 minutes / Howard - 0 minutes
Finley - 36 minutes /Howard - 12 minutes / Henderson - 0 minutes
Novitsky - 36 minutes /Henderson - 12 minutes /DJ - 0 minutes
Dampier - 28 minutes /Bradley - 20 minutes /Booth - 0 minutes


Observations:

The glaring need is at Power forward. We are reaching to make one of our centers into the backup or to rely on Henderson. So the mavs need to package a center and Henderson to get a true Novitsky backup.

It is exciting that we have Harris, Daniels, Howard and DJ as our future, with Novitsky as our pivot point in both the present and future lineup.

So DJ and Booth sit at the end of the bench.

First thing... it is NOWITZKI, not novitsky.

Second... Howard and Daniels will get way more minutes while stack, terry and Finley will get less.

Third... Henderson will likely recieve NO minutes and the backup minutes will go to Booth (assuming we dont trade anyone).

Fourth... Nellie better play Damp more condidering what we gave up for him, also I cant see Nellie playing Bradely 20 minutes considering he didnt play him for 3 game stretches last year.

[MFFL4113]

Originally posted by: fin4life

When exactly did we go 14-1 without finley??? Are you sure that actually happened?

Fin he is right, they did do well without Finley once...but that had to do with what they still had minus finley, which they don't have now. The two most substantial players when hurt were Finley and Nash, and Finley has been hurt more than once, and it was 12-1 not 14-1 I do believe, so if you don't want me to

use that numbers crap on you, then get yours right, but they dont have nash, avery can only do so much, and who knows how much control Don will have over this team. Finley is a proven leader that this team needs. Is he the best player? No. Is the most athletic? Surely not. Does he maybe need to work on putting the ball on the floor and driving? Probably, but that hasn't been whats kept them from the finals. Has he been the only true leader this team has had over the past few years? Yes, though Nash and Dirk are minor leaders, and Avery is a vocal leader, but isn't on the floor too much, Finley has been a solid leader for this team. I think FIN4LIFE, and the numerous other screen names similar show how much this city loves him, and realizes his worth. I have a question for you. Next time you watch a game when it comes down to the last shot, and that shot belongs to the Mavericks, see who takes that shot. Or games in the past, who has taken the shot? It has been either Nick and Mike. Why? Because Dirk is a pussy down the stretch, he doesn't like taking the last shot, and teams know that. Finley has thrown up some wild crap at game's end which makes fans wonder, what are you doing!? The fact of the matter is that no one else was there to shoot. He steps up for this team night in and night out. I personally know someone in that Dallas Mavericks lockeroom, that unfortunately, much to my disliking, but something I knew was bound to happen, he is not here anymore, but I first-hand word of mouth know how much Finley means to this team in terms of leadership, hustle, work ethic and play...I don't believe I used numbers this time...

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley

So does Dirk, Daniels, and Terry. And Howard if he gets the start. Who's going to hit the outside shot for us?

You have a point but far too many times have I seen us come out of the chute raining jumpers where Fin has jacked the first one. If at the next opportunity Fin would go to the rack I wouldn't have a problem with him as a starter. It just seems that after missing an initial J or two, Fin along with other starters (Dirk included) make it their mission to be the first to hit a jumper, when they should be trying to get to the line to get a flow going. Fin is the worst perpetrator of this - is it a mere coincidence that our 1st quarter play was so incosistent?

I don't see anything wrong with all 5 starters having an aggressive, take-it-to-the-rim mentality to start the game. If fact I thnk if you set that tone, Fin becomes a deadly change-up off the bench.

[grndmstr_c]

is it a mere coincidence that our 1st quarter play was so incosistent?

Please. Our first quarter problems last year had nothing to do with Fin being a jump shooter, but were rather the result of Toine either playing out of position, or Toine's presence forcing somebody else (Dirk) to play out of position at the start of each game. The Mavs of 02/03 certainly didn't have first quarter problems with Fin in the lineup.

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Please. Our first quarter problems last year had nothing to do with Fin being a jump shooter, but were rather the result of Toine either playing out of position, or Toine's presence forcing somebody else (Dirk) to play out of position at the start of each game. The Mavs of 02/03 certainly didn't have first quarter problems with Fin in the lineup.

'Toine surely didn't help, but it was mostly in that his defense was pourous, his shooting sucked and if he did get to the line early, he couldn't make his free-throws.

I want easy buckets to begin the game. I can't stand spending the first quarter watching Fin and Dirk standing around at the arc, bricking it up - get the rock and attack! Make something happen - the jumpers will fall soon enough. Get the hoop and/ or the foul, keep the opponent from running. There's nothing more demoralizing than watching the early missed jumper, of course we have no one underneath to get the rebound (Damp and Josh would help here) and letting the opponent get out and run for an easy bucket.

[grndmstr_c]

If you want easy buckets then we need a three point shooter we can put on the weakside to allow Terry and Dirk to run the pick and roll effectively and to keep Damp from getting swarmed in the paint. Finley is the ONLY guy on the roster who has proved to be capable of giving us what we need in that respect.

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
If you want easy buckets then we need a three point shooter we can put on the weakside to allow Terry and Dirk to run the pick and roll effectively and to keep Damp from getting swarmed in the paint. Finley is the ONLY guy on the roster who has proved to be capable of giving us what we need in that respect.

I'm not saying that Fin is not the better jumpshooter, but Stack is dangerous enough from the outside to be respected (read: not Walker). If he's open for the J, hel'll shoot it. Stack however, will drive if that jumper is not falling - he won't shoot it incessantly like Fin will without mixing in a drive here and there. It's been my observation that when an early tone is set of going to the hoop, then Dirk and the rest seem to get more aggressive as well and certainly in Dirk's case, that makes him tons more effective.

[Mandyahl]

stitch, stack is actually a worse three point shooter for his career than toine....

[fin4life]

Although Fin doesnt slash as well as stackhouse... he can go to the basket. You are acting like the guy has never shot a layup or dunk. He takes it to the basket enough IMO... then he utilizes his famous jumpstop (widely known as the best in the league) and shoots a baby 5 foot hook. It is a thing of beauty

[dalmations202]

The beauty of it is that some teams defend the jump well, and some the drive well, but most teams can't defend them both.

Personally, I would make Fin the 6th man.......not because he doesn't deserve to start, but because he could come in for the 2 or the 3 (which ever is needed) and could be that instant offensive spark that this team will need. I don't know that Fin's ego would allow it, but that would be a role he could play out his contract with, and have everyone loving him. He could have a shot at 6th man of the year, every year.

Stack has more skins on the wall, and really deserves to start ahead of Daniels........won't happen though.

With the game on the line late, and Dallas needing offense....Stack, Fin, Terry, and Dirk will all be on the floor - unless there is a trade, not sure who else in a Nellie offense.

[grndmstr_c]

Stack is dangerous enough from the outside to be respected (read: not Walker).

Wrongo. Antoine Walker's career three point percentage is 32.6%. Jerry Stackhouse's is 30.4%. Stack's outside shooting does not at all need to be respected. Beyond that, you seem to be missing a very basic ingredient in all this, namely that we're going to be starting 2 wing players, not just Fin. Whether Quis or Stack gets the nod, we're going to have a player out there who makes his living taking the ball inside. What we do not have is another guy who can stretch the defense.

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: fin4life
Although Fin doesnt slash as well as stackhouse... he can go to the basket. You are acting like the guy has never shot a layup or dunk. He takes it to the basket enough IMO... then he utilizes his famous jumpstop (widely known as the best in the league) and shoots a baby 5 foot hook. It is a thing of beauty

Agreed. I love the jump-stop, baby-hook of Fin's - doesn't get him to the line though. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Fin's shooting, but were talking about who would be the more effective starter. If I can choose between the first possession 3 point clank (hell, even when he does make the early jumpers, it still often sets a passive tone offensively. These are the Mavs were talking about here - we need an aggressive tone set from the start.) and the jam-it-down-your-throat and get a foul, then I'll take the latter.

Wasn't aware of the Walker comparison, but thanks. All I know is that I've not seen many times where Jerry can't get to the bucket when he wants to and more importantly, when it's NEEDED. And that is all too often with the Mavs.

[fin4life]

Since when does everyone think that Finley sets a bad tone. Just because the forst couple of shots are outside shots doesnt mean the they will be all jumpers in the 4th. That is why we have coaching... to guide a team through a game and tell them what they need to be doing.

The argument that Fin should come off the bench because he sets a bad tone is just stupid.

[Stitch Jones]

[quote]
Originally posted by: fin4life
Since when does everyone think that Finley sets a bad tone. Just because the forst couple of shots are outside shots doesnt mean the they will be all jumpers in the 4th.

If all he did was force a "couple" of shots and then when they didn't fall, he would go the the hole, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact is that when they aren't falling, he all too often just keeps jacking even 'til halftime and yes, in the fourth too.

The argument that Fin should come off the bench because he sets a bad tone is just stupid.

Whatever, because you don't agree? Sorry, I love fin as much as the next guy but his game is soft more often than it should be. Sure, with no Stack, I start him but...

Stretch the defense? How can you stretch the defense when you've established no inside game. I guess if you trust Dirk to post up immediately and JT or whomever else to drive the lane then you can get away with Fin laguishing at the arc waiting for the kick. But it would be a far cry from what I've seen from this team in the first quarter on many occaisions.

[Day1MavsFan]

Dalmation,

I really enjoy your posts. I'm getting what you're saying here about the offense, but why then do you want Fin coming off the bench? What you said about having him in the corners seemed to make sense, but as a starter with the other guys. Who then to shoot from the outside to start the game? Certainly not Daniels or Stack, and even Terry wouldn't be the best I think. You've got Dirk in the high post for the pick 'n' roll/pop. That doesn't put him at the 3-point line.