Debate #2

[chumdawg]

No thread on the debate yet?

I fear that my boy got whipped pretty good tonight. At least in the early going. I think he picked things up considerably in the second half.

It is ironic to me that Bush seems to struggle in these debates when the topic is foreign affairs, but he does well on domestic issues. The common knowledge seems to be that it should be the other way around.

I need to watch again, though, and let it all sink in. I was surprised to hear the initial reaction from the talking heads that they thought it was a draw.

Nevertheless, on a somber not, at tradesports.com Bush's price is falling quickly. It's still well ahead of Kerry's, but it's getting a lot closer (55 to 45 or so, I think).

[XERXES]

I thought Bush did much more than hold his own. He painted Kerry to be the liberal, borderline-pacifist, blow-with-the-wind-on-issues candidate that he actually is. Good job W.

[dude1394]

I thought bush was much more personal, called kerry out on his voting record as one of the most liberal in america and got off the pedantic flip-flop. He used the flip-flop statement but sparingly and it was more effective because of it.

The format in general was a lot better and the questions by the people are a hell of a lot better than the media's.

[reeds]

Id have to call it a draw..I thought both did well in getting their points across..Bush was much better than he was in debate #1...

[kg_veteran]

Bush did really well for himself tonight. When folks like Andrew Sullivan, Josh Marshall, Daily Kos, and our very own reeds are calling it a draw, you know Bush won handily.

[dude1394]

what kg said.

[Chiwas]

I liked more both this time, but I would give Kerry the lead again.

However, I think the nation, and probably the world, is learning some issues to build on, with these debates.

[Epitome22]

Interesting debate. Kerry seemed weak to me but I must admit, I'm distrubed by some of the things Bush has said. Mainly about the drugs from Canada and the pro-life policy and what not. I also lost some respect for him when he lied about being involved with the Timber company (did he not know they could check that out on the 'internets' ?)

I will give props to Kerry for dropping the term 'Orwellian' into the mix. At least one candidate has made an effort to raise the intellectual level of these debates.

[Fidel]

I didn´t see it but Kerry won hands down... just kidding.


I only catched snippets. From what I saw I´d call it a draw. Bush was in better shape this time.

[sike]

Bush did more than hold his own...I liked it when he jumped off his stool and challenged Kerry's comment. Kerry is doing a better job of relating the common man than I thought he could. I hate that.

[mavsman55]

Kerry couldn't come back to half of the (true) accusations that Bush pinned on him. I'd definitely call it a tie, but Bush more than held his own this time, and made John Kerry look like a fool at the same time.

At first, I didn't expect the debates to have much of an effect. But this one might come down to debate #3. Let's hope I have off work.

[dude1394]

From mark steyn.

And, if you want to know the real difference, after 90 minutes of debate it came in the final exchange of the night: "The truth of that matter," said Bush, "is, if you listen carefully, Saddam would still be in power if he [Kerry] were the President of the United States."

Kerry replied: "Not necessarily."

That's John Kerry: the "not necessarily" candidate.

[MavKikiNYC]

How Bush Won Round 2
By WILLIAM SAFIRE

Published: October 11, 2004

When pro-Kerry commentators solemnly pronounce Debate Round 2 to have been "a draw" - you know George Bush won that round.

The president won because he went in with a theme spoken by the heavyweight champion Joe Louis, just before his 1946 rematch victory over the lighter, faster Billy Conn: "He can run, but he can't hide." (The Brown Bomber caught up with Conn in the eighth round of that first TV spectacular.)

Bush's debate plan was to keep boring in on the Kerry record: flip-flopping this year on the war, but all too consistently liberal for 20 years on tax increases.

On the war, Kerry almost eagerly made Bush's point, at first saying, "I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat," and moments later denouncing Bush for being "preoccupied with Iraq, where there wasn't a threat."

The president exploited the contradiction in Kerry's latest policy, which claims the ability to attract troop support from France, Germany and Russia - while agreeing with them that the war was a diversion. To Kerry's "plan" to hold a summit, Bush asked: "And what is he going to say to those people that show up to the summit? 'Join me in the wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place'?"

Although Kerry accused the Bush campaign of "mass deception," he let the president focus on that illogical policy. The Democrat weakly cited recent worrying by Republican Senators Richard Lugar and Chuck Hagel, recited a list of retired generals who endorsed him and embraced Ronald Reagan. Such a stretch for conservative company, followed by a plaintive "We will get tough!," hardly shows strength.

When Kerry complained again of "going it alone," Bush was ready with a powerful counterpunch: "Tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell Aleksander Kwasniewski we're going alone."

This not only showed that Bush knew these allies personally, but could also pronounce Kwasniewski's name, which reminded Polish-Americans that Poland's president had responded angrily to Kerry's brushoff of his country's sacrifices in the first debate. (Next day, Australians re-elected John Howard, a staunch coalition member, who trounced a cut-and-run opponent - good news for coalition leaders.)

When the questioning turned to taxes, Kerry pandered with a liberal's absurd promise not to sign legislation raising taxes on anybody making less than $200,000 a year, neglecting only to say,"Read my lips."

Kerry also blundered with a weird attack on an $84 item in the Bushes' federal income tax return, supposedly from a timber business. "I own a timber company? That's news to me," said Bush, adding engagingly in what was the most natural moment in the debate, "Need some wood?" It turns out that Kerry relied on an Annenberg Web site that later admitted it had been confused, which left the Democratic candidate out on a hardwood limb. Bush was too much the gentleman to point out, now that their income taxes were in dispute, that Mrs. Heinz Kerry paid only 11 percent in 2003 on her $5 million income, while the Bushes paid 28 percent.

(Although every Bush slip gets delighted examination - he called Kerry "Kennedy" and he said, "Internets"; can you imagine? - Kerry's minor gaffes attract little notice. When citing his overseas travel in the first debate, Kerry talked of visiting the old K.G.B. headquarters "in Treblinka square." He meant Lubyanka Square; Treblinka was the Nazi death camp. We all make mistakes.)


As Bush picked up steam, Kerry seemed to lose heart, again evoking Lugar and Hagel, skillfully backing away like Billy Conn. Asked about high damage awards gained by trial lawyers that drive up everybody's insurance premiums, he replied that John Edwards and he "support tort reform," even to limitations on punitive awards. Bush delivered a body blow: "You're now for capping punitive damages. That's odd. You should have shown up on the floor in the Senate and voted for it then."

In an anguishing moment, Kerry said he was against partial-birth abortion (as are most voters, including many pro-choice) and then explained why he voted against the ban that is now law. Countered Bush: "He was given a chance to vote and he voted no. . . . It's clear for everybody to see. And as I said, you can run, but you can't hide."

[jacktruth]

One moment I remembered most:

Bush: "We passed it out of the House of Representatives. Guess where it's stuck? It's stuck in the Senate, because the trial lawyers won't act on it. And he put a trial lawyer on the ticket."

Awesome. What is John Kerry doing about tort reform: adding a trial lawyer as a running mate.

[Drbio]

It was a knockdown clear beating by the President. No doubt about it.

[Mavdog]

Appears to be a draw between them on round 2. On to round 3.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
October 09, 2004
Standoff in Second Debate
Debate viewers: 47% say Kerry did better, 45% say Bush

by David W. Moore

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- Sen. John Kerry and President George W. Bush battled each other to a virtual tie in Friday night's presidential debate, according to a random sample of 515 registered voters who watched the event. Forty-seven percent of viewers said Kerry did the better job; 45% picked Bush. This is a much more positive rating than what Bush received after the first debate, which viewers said Kerry won by 53% to 37%.

Regardless of which candidate you happen to support, who do you think did the better job in the debate -- [ROTATED: John Kerry (or) George W. Bush]?

Overall
Kerry 47
Bush 45
neither 1
Both/equally 7


Republicans
Kerry 10
Bush 83
neither 0
Both/equally 7

Independents
Kerry 53
Bush 37
neither 1
both/equally 9

Democrats
Kerry 87
Bush 8
neither 0
both/equally 5


Male
Kerry 45
Bush 48
Neither 1
Both/equally 6

Female
Kerry 50
Bush 41
neither 0
bth/equally 9

Democrats rallied behind Kerry's performance by 87% to 8%, while Republicans rallied behind Bush's performance by a slightly smaller margin, 83% to 10%. But independents chose Kerry by a 16-point margin, 53% to 37%.

The reason the overall figures show only a slight advantage for Kerry, despite his greater margin among his own party and winning the independent vote, is that the sample of viewers had more Republicans (38%) than Democrats (32%) or independents (30%). Also, the sample of viewers support Bush over Kerry in the presidential race by 50% to 46%.

The poll shows a modest gender gap in the rating of the two candidates, with women choosing Kerry as the winner by a nine-point margin (50% to 41%), and men leaning toward Bush by a three-point margin (48% to 45%). In the first debate, male and female viewers gave virtually identical responses.

Other Poll Findings

Overall, 38% of viewers said they felt more favorably toward Kerry as a result of the debate, while 20% felt less favorably -- a net positive of 18 points. By comparison, Bush received a net positive of 11 points -- 31% of viewers said they felt more favorably and 20% less favorably toward Bush because of the debate.

How has your opinion of John Kerry/George W. Bush been affected by the debate? Is your opinion of Kerry/Bush -- more favorable, less favorable, or has it not changed much? [Names rotated.]

In the first debate, Kerry received a net positive score of 33 points on the more favorable vs. less favorable ratings, compared with just 4 points for Bush, a further indication of how much better Bush did in this debate than the first one.

As in the first debate, viewers were much more likely to say that Kerry expressed himself more clearly than Bush (54% to 37%), and -- on the other side -- that Bush rather than Kerry demonstrated he is tough enough for the job (53% to 40%). But Kerry's margin this time (17 points) was smaller than his margin in the first debate (28 points), additional evidence that Bush's performance was better in the second debate. On the other hand, Bush's margin on being tough enough for the job was slightly lower this time (13 points) than it was in the first debate (17 points).

The poll also shows a slight edge for Kerry on having a good understanding of the issues (five-point advantage), while Bush had a slight edge on being more believable (four-point advantage). Viewers split almost evenly on which candidate agreed with them more on the issues they care about (Bush by one point) and who was more likable (Bush by two points).

[Drbio]

It doesn't matter which liberally biased poll you cite....Bush whupped arse. Period. A monkey with half a brain can see it, even if libs with rose colored glasses cannot.

[reeds]

"It doesn't matter which liberally biased poll you cite....Bush whupped arse. Period. A monkey with half a brain can see it, even if libs with rose colored glasses cannot. "


Hmmm...the pot calling the kettle black again, as usual..

So basically what you are saying is, half (or slightly more) of this country has less than half a brain...hmmm...I keep forgetting if we dont agree with you, we are brainless morons...keep it up though- its great entertainment

[mavsman55]

Reeds, it's common sense. Doesn't have anything to do with political opinion. Even though both politicians got their arguments off, Kerry left that debate looking like a moron. Bush did a good job.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: reeds
So basically what you are saying is, half (or slightly more) of this country has less than half a brain...

I thought this was common knowledge.

[reeds]

"Reeds, it's common sense. Doesn't have anything to do with political opinion. Even though both politicians got their arguments off, Kerry left that debate looking like a moron. Bush did a good job. "

As I said before- I'll say it again..you and Dribio are a lot alike...if you dont agree with what Bush says, you are a Moron...blah blah blah..

The country was divided over who won debate #2- did you read the polls?? And please dont tell me you are smarter than half of the country that sided with Kerry...please

[Epitome22]

Bush should just forfeit the next debate and save himself some dignity. Every time he opens his mouth on national TV he reveals himself to be the arrogant, barely literate, adolescent minded goom that he is.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Epitome22
Bush should just forfeit the next debate and save himself some dignity. Every time he opens his mouth on national TV he reveals himself to be the arrogant, barely literate, adolescent minded goom that he is.

That is just absurd considering the rear kicking he administered in debate #2. Just idiotic.

[Drbio]

Even most libs acknowledge that the polls are biased reeds. Only the most close-minded fools refuse to accept the fact. It's your choice.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: Drbio

That is just absurd considering the rear kicking he administered in debate #2. Just idiotic.

The only thing idiotic was Bush's performance in that debate. That debate is one of the reasons why this has become a semblance of a close election rather than a landslide. They saw 2 candidates, one who calmly stated his positions like an adult, and one who looked like a pumped up adolescent strutting around the parking lot after a high school football game. Like I said, Bush should just forfeit and save himself the embarrassment of getting throddled by Kerry again.

[Drbio]

It's ok that you are wrong epitome. We forgive you for not realizing it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

Believe that kerry named a bunch of military men in the debate...He obviously didn't name this one.

Tommy Franks speaks his mind on John Kerry. That's one of the many generals who is NOT endorsing Kerry.

"If his voting record ruled the day, Saddam Hussein would not only be running Iraq but Kuwait," Franks told about 200 people Sunday at a Reno rally.

"The choice is very, very clear. We need decisive, strong, no-backing-down and no-equivocating leadership," he said.

Franks praised the Democratic challenger's military service during the Vietnam War, but said Kerry's later anti-war activities upset him.

"The men I served with in Vietnam weren't war criminals and I'm proud I served with them," Franks said.

[dude1394]

Senator..YOU are no Ronald ReaganRich Lowry discusses John Kerry's obscene utterance of Renaldus Maximus's name during the debate.
--------------
Listening to John Kerry in the debates, one could be forgiven for thinking that his running mate is Ronald Reagan. He has invoked Reagan's name more often than that of John Edwards. And he has mostly done it in the context of foreign policy, suggesting that his approach to the world will be Reaganesque.

This is a grotesque example of political body-snatching, as dishonest in its way as, say, David Duke invoking Martin Luther King Jr. to bolster his civil rights credentials. "I'm going to run a foreign policy that actually does what President Reagan did, President Eisenhower did, and others," Kerry said the other night. "We're going to build alliances. We're not going to go unilaterally. We're not going to go alone like this president did." Kerry is attempting to boost his own toughness by the association with Reagan, but he is baldly distorting Reagan's foreign policy in the process.

It is absurd to argue that the thrust of Reagan's policy was somehow building alliances. Yes, Reagan inherited a stable system of Cold War alliances appropriate to the threat the United States was facing at the time (a luxury President Bush hasn't had since 9/11). But otherwise Reagan pursued confrontation with America's enemy, the sort of confrontation Kerry considered inappropriate then and still opposes today in the context of the war on terror.

Reagan rejected detente, the Nixon-era policy of attempting a negotiated accommodation with the Soviet Union. He thought the Soviet empire a monstrous evil that had to be defeated. He met the Soviets on the battlefield with proxy forces throughout the Third World, and embarked on an arms buildup meant to bankrupt the Soviets. He swathed these policies in moralistic rhetoric and identified the United States with the spread of freedom around the world.

There was much here to make Kerry, the dovish accommodationist, blanch, and he duly blanched. Kerry opposed every component of the Reagan policy, surely one of the reasons he considered the Reagan years a time of, as he put it, "moral darkness."

In the mid-1980s, he attacked Reagan's buildup as wasteful and counterproductive. "[The] biggest defense buildup since World War II has not given us a better defense," Kerry intoned. "Americans feel more threatened by the prospect of war, not less so." He was a fierce critic of Reagan's proxy war against the Soviets in Nicaragua. He pronounced himself "alarmed that the Reagan administration is repeating the mistakes we made in Vietnam."

more

[Drbio]

Flippity-floppity.....