The redesign

[jthig32]

Chum, don't you think our window would be closing even quicker if we had not broken up the '03 team?

I mean Van Exel was awful the following year. Hurt and awful, and hasn't played up to the level of that season since. Did we not trade him at the perfect time?

Walt Williams is now out of the league. You still want him around?

You really going to try and feed us that you 'd rather have the trio of Walt, Bell and Griffin over Howard, Stack and Marquis????

And then the big one. So you're telling me last year you would rather have had a rotation of Raef, Shawn and Eddie over Damp, Shawn and KVH????

I mean you're just not making sense there man.

The '03 team was a GREAT run. We had a lot of pieces fall right for us, and a few fall wrong. A few of the wrongs go right and we win it all....

BUT, IMO, if we stand pat after that year, our window at this point is completely closed. Completely, and we're in total rebuild mode. We sold high with Van Exel, unloaded Raef, and retooled. Sure it cost us a year because we didn't do it very well at first, but as of right now, we are in MUCH better position than we would have been had we stood pat after '03.

[dude1394]

I don't see how, we'd still have the only elite player on the roster which is dirk (plus the mvp-nash). The point is that some feel we would have been contending these last few years (and beyone) if the team hadn't been demolished.

The core of the 02-03 team was dirk, nash, fin, nve, raef, najera, raja, shawn, (walt, others). We would have also picked up josh/marquis as well I believe. The core this year is....dirk.

[madape]

Originally posted by: jthig32
Chum, don't you think our window would be closing even quicker if we had not broken up the '03 team?

I mean Van Exel was awful the following year. Hurt and awful, and hasn't played up to the level of that season since. Did we not trade him at the perfect time?

Walt Williams is now out of the league. You still want him around?

You really going to try and feed us that you 'd rather have the trio of Walt, Bell and Griffin over Howard, Stack and Marquis????

And then the big one. So you're telling me last year you would rather have had a rotation of Raef, Shawn and Eddie over Damp, Shawn and KVH????

I mean you're just not making sense there man.

The '03 team was a GREAT run. We had a lot of pieces fall right for us, and a few fall wrong. A few of the wrongs go right and we win it all....

BUT, IMO, if we stand pat after that year, our window at this point is completely closed. Completely, and we're in total rebuild mode. We sold high with Van Exel, unloaded Raef, and retooled. Sure it cost us a year because we didn't do it very well at first, but as of right now, we are in MUCH better position than we would have been had we stood pat after '03.

What makes you think there was a window, and that this window was closing? We had improved our record and our playoff performance for FIVE straight years. We were a team filled with YOUNG developing stars like Dirk and Raef. If we had kept things together, we'd still have been able to pick up Howard and Daniels, the best two acquisitions since '02 in my opinion. If we had continued on course by making SMALL moves, it's highly likely we would have improved for a sixth, or seveth year... to the point where we probably would have won at least one NBA championship. Just think about the roster. Where would the weakness come from? Where is this team any better? And don't feed me any bullshit about Dampier, because it's hard to imagine a center playing any worse than the did in the playoffs last year.

[jthig32]

Originally posted by: madape

What makes you think there was a window, and that this window was closing? We had improved our record and our playoff performance for FIVE straight years. We were a team filled with YOUNG developing stars like Dirk and Raef. If we had kept things together, we'd still have been able to pick up Howard and Daniels, the best two acquisitions since '02 in my opinion. If we had continued on course by making SMALL moves, it's highly likely we would have improved for a sixth, or seveth year... to the point where we probably would have won at least one NBA championship. Just think about the roster. Where would the weakness come from? Where is this team any better? And don't feed me any bullshit about Dampier, because it's hard to imagine a center playing any worse than the did in the playoffs last year.

Weaknesses? How about Van Exel being hurt all year and a shell of the player we saw that year? I mean that's enough right there. Without Nick going nuts we don't make the WCF that year anyway. Take him away and that's all she wrote.

And if you're going to refer to Raef as a "young star" then there's no point in continuing this discussion. I will happily root for Damp for the entirity of his contract, if for no other reason than he's NOT RAEF. Damp is so much better for this team than Raef it's not even funny.

Dude,
Ok, take away Nash from your list of the core the we "demolished". What are we missing? Nick? You really want him back? How about Raef? I mean come one. Hindsight tells us that trading Nick was a great move for this team. We would not have contended the next year without him healthy, and he wasn't that year. I just don't see it. We took a step back that year, no doubt, but we were not going to repeat '03. That was lightning in a bottle.

[grndmstr_c]

CD, in regards to your bet, the fact that you would even extend such an offer to me tells me that you don't understand my position. I'm not coming down on the nay-sayers because I think everything's rosey. The fact is, for all the chicken littles running around, the Mavs have yet to make a single move this offseason involving their players under contract outside of allowing Shawn to retire - which I think we can all agree from a practical standpoint isn't going to have a measurable impact on the team's postseason succes seeing as how Shawn couldn't get pt. You want me to offer predictions on how the Mavs are going to do next year, talk to me after we have some idea what the roster's going to look like. Talk to me after we've gotten a full summer league and training camp and have gotten some feedback from Avery regarding the youngsters' progress. At this point in time there is a lot that is undecided regarding the immediate future of this team. There are some very real challenges that the front office faces in deciding how to play the hand they've currently got. If they choose well and get some good luck the team could improve. If they choose poorly and get some bad luck things could go south. But we're not likely to have any real sense of how things are playing out for at least a couple months.

[V2M]

Losing Finley for nothing hurts. Sure Cuban may save some $ but talent wise it's a loss for the team.
It's hard to replace Fin's leadership and great 3pt shooting. And with his surgery, it's likely he'd come in
stronger and better. It'd be an absolute shame if he ends up with a western conference contender and
ends up winning the title.

Saying that, if there's one starter that we had to lose, SG is the only position where we have good depth.
Our biggest needs being an athletic backup 4/5 and a backup combo guard who can shoot 3s, I hope we
trade Finley to an Eastern team and get those needs filled. I don't much care if Cuban saves much $ or not.

Regardless of what happens, I think we're strong enough to remain a contender. With an extra training camp
under his belt, I expect AJ to get more out of Damp & Terry for sure. Josh & Dirk are certain to improve as is. Stack, Quis
and KVH should also improve as they get to know more of AJ's system. Given the 17-2 record in the regular season
after Nellie quit, I strongly feel we're a contender with or without Finley, next year.

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
CD, in regards to your bet, the fact that you would even extend such an offer to me tells me that you don't understand my position. I'm not coming down on the nay-sayers because I think everything's rosey. The fact is, for all the chicken littles running around, the Mavs have yet to make a single move this offseason involving their players under contract outside of allowing Shawn to retire - which I think we can all agree from a practical standpoint isn't going to have a measurable impact on the team's postseason succes seeing as how Shawn couldn't get pt. You want me to offer predictions on how the Mavs are going to do next year, talk to me after we have some idea what the roster's going to look like. Talk to me after we've gotten a full summer league and training camp and have gotten some feedback from Avery regarding the youngsters' progress. At this point in time there is a lot that is undecided regarding the immediate future of this team. There are some very real challenges that the front office faces in deciding how to play the hand they've currently got. If they choose well and get some good luck the team could improve. If they choose poorly and get some bad luck things could go south. But we're not likely to have any real sense of how things are playing out for at least a couple months.

I see what you're saying. (Though I do think you have at least hinted that things are more "rosey" than not.)

But just because the Mavs have yet to make any significant moves, at least officially, doesn't mean that we aren't getting some sense of things one way or another. They've made it pretty clear that it's not likely Fin will be back. I don't take any solace in the fact that it's not official yet. Oh, I guess there's a chance they might find a way to actually upgrade the talent base by replacing Fin win something of better value, but I'm being realistic and looking at what would have to take place for that to happen. Which is to say, it takes two teams to make a trade. This isn't something the Mavs can just *do*, like not cutting Fin or like signing a free agent would be. And I just don't think that a really good trade is going to happen for the Mavs. Should I wait in hopes that it does? I guess so. But I don't like the chances.

And of course, there was the draft, which probably helped a few teams a lot more than it helped the Mavs. Not that you can really criticize the Mavs for not having a pick or not getting involved with one, but you can still look at it as one more way that the competition is getting better while we're not.

And then you can look at the free agents that are available, and you have to look hard to find something we might have a realistic shot at that would help the team.

I'm just saying, there's no real reason for optimism. Well, outside of the current guys (sans Finley, I'm sure) growing as a team. I do hope that happens. I'll certainly be pulling for them when the season starts. But I'm pretty sure that the Mavs are moving backward, in relation to the rest of the league. And I think that has been caused by their own devices, if you will, which I find extremely frustrating as a loyal fan of the franchise.

[V2M]

CD, no doubt there's been only bad news pouring out of the Mavs this offseason. But we're still in the 1st inning of a 9-inning game!!

This off-season, especially with all it's new rules, could end up as arguably the most chaotic & exciting ever. The salary cap increases, additional trade flexibility, one-time player waivers, etc., that are all set to begin from July 22, should cause quite a bit of player movement. It's hard to tell the winners from the losers this early.

I can't imagine Cuban/Donnie to stay inactive through all this.

[grndmstr_c]

I see what you're saying. (Though I do think you have at least hinted that things are more "rosey" than not.)

Guilty as charged, but then consider what I'm arguing against. I'd love to be able to engage in a non-emotionally charged debate about what sorts of moves the Mavs should be looking to make, but between the lack of real news concerning what the Mavs are trying to do and the tenor on the board of late my hand's been forced.

But just because the Mavs have yet to make any significant moves, at least officially, doesn't mean that we aren't getting some sense of things one way or another. They've made it pretty clear that it's not likely Fin will be back. I don't take any solace in the fact that it's not official yet. Oh, I guess there's a chance they might find a way to actually upgrade the talent base by replacing Fin win something of better value, but I'm being realistic and looking at what would have to take place for that to happen. Which is to say, it takes two teams to make a trade. This isn't something the Mavs can just *do*, like not cutting Fin or like signing a free agent would be. And I just don't think that a really good trade is going to happen for the Mavs. Should I wait in hopes that it does? I guess so. But I don't like the chances.

I'm hopeful they'll be able to find some sort of trade. Talent upgrade? Not optimistic at all, there. But some mix of financial relief and a contributor of some sort would be acceptable if keeping Fin turns out not to be an option (as it appears it may).

And of course, there was the draft, which probably helped a few teams a lot more than it helped the Mavs. Not that you can really criticize the Mavs for not having a pick or not getting involved with one, but you can still look at it as one more way that the competition is getting better while we're not.

But did any of the Mavs close competitors measurably improve? At least for right now I'm not terribly concerned about the teams that'll be fighting to make the playoffs - not as much as I'm concerned about the teams fighting for division titles and home-court, and none of them had drafts that scare me (at least not yet).

And then you can look at the free agents that are available, and you have to look hard to find something we might have a realistic shot at that would help the team.

I don't think you have to look that hard at all. Guys like Pachulia and Hunter are very gettable and IMO either would be an asset as the 4th guy in the frontcourt rotation; a healthy KVH and either one of those guys coming off the bench to spell Damp in the postseason would make a huge difference relative to what the Mavs had to work with this last postseason. And then there are likely CBA casualties like Brian Grant. The well's not dry. In fact, of all the guys I'd be interested in who would have been available to a team with only the MLE to work with, only one - Andersen - is off the table.

[chumdawg]

Okay, fair enough. I guess I need some patience. Or for those NBATV games to come around. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: jthig32

Weaknesses? How about Van Exel being hurt all year and a shell of the player we saw that year? I mean that's enough right there. Without Nick going nuts we don't make the WCF that year anyway. Take him away and that's all she wrote.

And if you're going to refer to Raef as a "young star" then there's no point in continuing this discussion. I will happily root for Damp for the entirity of his contract, if for no other reason than he's NOT RAEF. Damp is so much better for this team than Raef it's not even funny.

Dude,
Ok, take away Nash from your list of the core the we "demolished". What are we missing? Nick? You really want him back? How about Raef? I mean come one. Hindsight tells us that trading Nick was a great move for this team. We would not have contended the next year without him healthy, and he wasn't that year. I just don't see it. We took a step back that year, no doubt, but we were not going to repeat '03. That was lightning in a bottle.

We can argue about it but dirk/nash/finley/nve and I'm sure others are all on record as thinking that a team that got to the wcf's shouldn't turn over 2 starters and their sixth man. Not to mention other of the "glue guys".

We are both playing whatif here. Your whatif says that the team must have (this year) 4 of the 5 starters and 6th men moved. My whatif says that I like the core of dirk/nash/fin and raef/shawn. I also think it's been proven throughout Nellie's career that when it comes to big men and centers he is absolutely clueless.

I did NOT like to see a firesale that within two years the team is unrecognizable. Especially when it looks like we are going to give up both nash/finley for zip.

[jopimokeeluvimanysl]

Don't blame nellie. He was under alot of pressure to win from Cuban. That is why things that happened in the past happened as they did.
The Dallas Mavs have bad karma since its becoming which I believe had been exacerbated due to the misalignment of the location of the American Airlines Center to the moon.

[dude1394]

Don't blame nellie for what? Not attempting to play defense? I don't think you can give nellie a free pass.

The only thing I will give him a pass on is this.

- The 02-03 year they had just gotten embarressed by Sacto. They dedicated the whole training camp to defense. Banners on the wall, etc.,etc. Result -- Best season in franchise history. The BEST, no if, ands or buts. The best ever.
- The 03-04 year they decided that nope, gotta re-make the team and bring in Jamison/Walker. Instead of spending that pre-season on defense it was spent the WHOLE time on getting the 'toines acclimated to the offense. It showed, the year was a big-ass waste of time. If instead of re-making that team, they had kept it as it was and AGAIN focused on better and better defense, I see no reason why they couldn't have competed for a championship, no reason at all.

The 03-04 year I will not blame on nellie...Donnie/Cubes get that one, imo.

[grndmstr_c]

The 03/04 caompaign was doomed from the start because of Raef's knee. I don't know why everyone wants to assign blame for something that really wasn't anybody's fault. If anything, Donnie and Mark deserve praise for getting such a good return on NVE while they still had a chance; the season would have gone a lot worse if not for that GS trade. The merits of the Boston trade can be debated, but IMO the only clear mistake the Mavs' front office made regarding that deal happened the year before when they signed Raef to such a big contract. And while we're busy assigning responsibility lets not forget that Don "I like Tony Delk" Nelson is on record as having supported the Boston deal.

[jopimokeeluvimanysl]

Houston Rockets got it right. They got Yao and I be willing to guess they hired a Fung Shwei expert. Now they have Tmac and this year they might be getting swift.

[capitalcity]

Originally posted by: jopimokeeluvimanysl
Houston Rockets got it right. They got Yao and I be willing to guess they hired a Fung Shwei expert. Now they have Tmac and this year they might be getting swift.

?

[chumdawg]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
The 03/04 caompaign was doomed from the start because of Raef's knee. I don't know why everyone wants to assign blame for something that really wasn't anybody's fault. If anything, Donnie and Mark deserve praise for getting such a good return on NVE while they still had a chance; the season would have gone a lot worse if not for that GS trade. The merits of the Boston trade can be debated, but IMO the only clear mistake the Mavs' front office made regarding that deal happened the year before when they signed Raef to such a big contract. And while we're busy assigning responsibility lets not forget that Don "I like Tony Delk" Nelson is on record as having supported the Boston deal.

Given the goings on of the last twelve-and-a-half months or so, I don't have the slightest hint of a doubt in my mind that Cuban gave the Nellies orders to find a taker for Raef. Not the slightest sliver of a doubt. Of course they are going to be good company men, and support the deal on record. But I'm positive that trade was of Cuban's doing.

[FINtastic]

I'm not sure that trade was all Cuban's doing. I don't know if Nellie was very happy with Raef as evidenced by Raef's noticeable reduction in minutes that year.

[grndmstr_c]

Nellie specifically came out and said he thought they needed to trade Raef because he was making too much money, and also gave the trade his blessing in part because he liked Tony Delk. Anybody who's trying to single out Mark and/or Donnie for blame for that trade for any reason other than the decision to sign Raef to that big contract in the first place is ignoring the facts.

[chumdawg]

When did we start characterizing all Nellie's utterances as "fact?"

[grndmstr_c]

Nellie's neither a yes man or a fall guy for Mark and you know it.