Suns see Amaré's return as only change needed - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirno2000 · 06-06-2006, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, Dirno, you know as well as I do (better, I'm sure) how games can change. How many 5'9" corners are getting drafted in the NFL? Some (like the Chris Paul's), to be sure. But not many.

I believe the Cowboys drafted a 6'4" or 6'5" safety, didn't they? It won't be long before most corners are Bobby Taylors out there.

Look at a guy like Flutie. At one time he would have been able to play the game as well as anyone. But the game had *already* passed him by, before he could ever make it to the pros. A 5'9" QB now? Um, it will never happen.

These things don't necessarily happen immediately, but they do happen with a momentum of their own. Of course the center position will still be bigger than the other positions (with the Euro's, if not the Americans), but if they aren't skilled they won't be able to get by on size alone. The days of a big, lumbering center are probably gone for good. For good.

It all goes in cycles. Yes teams want big corners but thanks to guys like Marvin Harrison, Steven Smith and Santan Moss the 6 foot and under reciever is back in vogue. It's going to be hard for the 6'2 corner to change directions quick enough to keep up with these guys.

As for Watkins, Bill didn't sound terribly exicted about his prospects for success when asked about him. Although, that could be because he's a rookie.

I mentioned Pryzbilla because he'd be the perfect test case. he's the epitome of the big lumbering center. He's not very athletic and his only skills are blocking shots, rebounding and being tall. If what you say is true and he's a dinasour, it should be tough sledding for him this summer. He'll just have to take whatever he can get and be happy with it. I have a feeling that won't be the case though.

sike · 06-06-2006, 01:30 AM

"Sure he can't score worth shit, but still, Shaq abused him in the post."

not that I want to enter this fray, but I think this could be said about Shaq and even the most beefy and traditional of NBA centers. Shaq is a fairly equal opportunity abuser.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

"Sure he can't score worth shit, but still, Shaq abused him in the post."

not that I want to enter this fray, but I think this could be said about Shaq and even the most beefy and traditional of NBA centers. Shaq is a fairly equal opportunity abuser.

Which is exactly my point. My point was that the importance of size and speed are not diminishing in favor of speed and skill. They're both vital to the game.

Chum says Shaq is a dinosaur. Yes, because he's old. The position he plays, however, isn't disappearing.

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It all goes in cycles. Yes teams want big corners but thanks to guys like Marvin Harrison, Steven Smith and Santan Moss the 6 foot and under reciever is back in vogue. It's going to be hard for the 6'2 corner to change directions quick enough to keep up with these guys.

As for Watkins, Bill didn't sound terribly exicted about his prospects for success when asked about him. Although, that could be because he's a rookie.

I mentioned Pryzbilla because he'd be the perfect test case. he's the epitome of the big lumbering center. He's not very athletic and his only skills are blocking shots, rebounding and being tall. If what you say is true and he's a dinasour, it should be tough sledding for him this summer. He'll just have to take whatever he can get and be happy with it. I have a feeling that won't be the case though.

I don't believe the little receiver is really in vogue with personnel departments. When it comes to draft day, I think they still want size.

And they DEFINITELY want size when covering those guys. Bigger, better, faster, more. You know the deal. As Bill said about the fourth-round pick (I forget his name): "He's 6'7", 290, and runs a 4.6. It didn't take long." Measurables are everything.

Whether Pryzbilla will get a contract or not is not of concern to me. I'm concerned about how championship teams try to put together their rosters. What we saw this year was the three elite teams in the West all being reluctant to play a center, if they played one at all, past the first round. And of course, there is Detroit in the East, with Ben Wallace manning the middle.

The game is changing, right before our eyes.

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Chum says Shaq is a dinosaur. Yes, because he's old. The position he plays, however, isn't disappearing.

You might misunderstand me. Shaq's skillset will ALWAYS be welcome. But Shaq is a generational player (meaning, one per generation). The rest of the teams aren'nt going to try to be like Shaq, if you know what I mean, at least until there IS another Shaq. (Which I don't expect there to be, anytime at all soon.)

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Which is exactly my point. My point was that the importance of size and speed are not diminishing in favor of speed and skill. They're both vital to the game.

Chum says Shaq is a dinosaur. Yes, because he's old. The position he plays, however, isn't disappearing.

all in all, The significance ofthe big man is not changing, the teams with the dominant big usually win, but the amount of quality bigs is at an all time shortage thus teams are adapting as they must...

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 02:07 AM

There's a reason it's at an all-time low. It's because no one plays the position anymore. An Aldridge plays on the perimeter in high school. Does ANYONE in America--at least, anyone worth his salt, play a pure five in high school anymore? No. Not unless he's fat and too unathletic to ever play in the pros.

Whatever big men are going to exist from here on out are going to be from Europe. The American guys are just too athletic and too well-trained.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You might misunderstand me. Shaq's skillset will ALWAYS be welcome. But Shaq is a generational player (meaning, one per generation). The rest of the teams aren'nt going to try to be like Shaq, if you know what I mean, at least until there IS another Shaq. (Which I don't expect there to be, anytime at all soon.)

Yes, shaq is truly a once a generation player, but chum, really, there was nothing unique about the way he's played the game. He was just the best at it. By far. Still, what he did was nothing new. He didn't revolutionize the game. Why? Because what he does is just plain vital to basketball. Big men will ALWAYS grab more rebounds than smaller guys. Big men will ALWAYS be better at boxing out, posting up, blocking shots, setting picks, and so on than smaller players. Those things are just vital parts of the game and that's not going to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The game is changing, right before our eyes.

Chum, you've still yet to provide me with a single example of this. Okay, there's Amare Stoudemire... Even IF Phoenix could win a championship playing him and Marion at PF/C and getting badly outrebounded every night, which I seriously doubt, I haven't seen one single shred of evidence that Phoenix wouldn't be better off playing him at Power Foward next to an old-fasioned center.

Dwight Howard? Power Forward.

Emeka Okafor? Power Forward.

Boris Diaw? A large point guard that's been seen many many times. By no means 'the wave of the future."

Chum, I just don't see how anyone could possibly believe this. It's beyond me. As far as I'm concerned, Amare is just a better version of Shawn Kemp. He's not revolutionizing the game here, and even if he was, you seem to think there are an influx of other players like him. There aren't. And still I say he should be playing power forward next to a "true" center.

Players like Yao Ming, Chris Kaman, Andrew Bogut, ZaZa Pachulia, Jamaal Magloire, Erick Dampier, Zydrunus Ilgauskas and so on are not going to have any trouble finding their way onto the court, and having a postive effect for their team. Not in the next ten years. Not ever.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Whatever big men are going to exist from here on out are going to be from Europe. The American guys are just too athletic and too well-trained.

Now there you might have a good point. Still, a 7-foot, rebounding, shot blocking, low-post scorer from Europe is still a a 7-foot, rebounding, shot blocking, low-post scorer.

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:25 AM

"Amare is just a better version of Shawn Kemp"

I cannot allow that sir! The Rainman is never to be underestimated! (seriously one of my favorite players in his prime...and with far more tude than Amare)

he and his 57 children demand an apology!

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 02:29 AM

First of all, while I work up a reply, tell me just how easy it was for Big Z and Damp to find the court in each of the respective conference finals.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

"Amare is just a better version of Shawn Kemp"

I cannot allow that sir! The Rainman is never to be underestimated! (seriously one of my favorite players in his prime...and with far more tude than Amare)

he and his 57 children demand an apology!

We could argue who's better. Kemp was a better defender and ball-handler. Either way, my point was that Amare has a similar skillset.

Kemp was a hell of a player, but he didn't revolutionize the game, and neither is Amare.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

First of all, while I work up a reply, tell me just how easy it was for Big Z and Damp to find the court in each of the respective conference finals.

Okay, you have a point about Damp, but Gana Diop had more than his fair share of minutes in that series. Is he not an old fasioned, lumbering center, or is he one of these wave of the future guys too?

BTW, who won that series?

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 02:36 AM

As I mentioned earlier, Big Z and Damp, neither one, could find the court when the championship was determine for their respective teams.

Say what you want about Detroit and Phoenix, they have both played in the conference finals the last two years. And neither one of them plays a center.

What they play is athletes. Ahtletes will always win out.

Shaq wins out because he is a good athlete. Other 7'2" guys lose out because they are not.

It's becoming an athlete's league. The days of the lumbering center are probably over.

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

We could argue who's better.

yes...but I would win

Quote:

Kemp was a hell of a player, but he didn't revolutionize the game, and neither is Amare.

well said...but just to play Devil's advocate, that was a league with Dream, DRob, Deke, Ewing, etc.... none of which are to be found today

I really don't want to discuss this...I just wanted to espouse my manlove for early 90's Kemp

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Okay, you have a point about Damp, but Gana Diop had more than his fair share of minutes in that series. Is he not an old fasioned, lumbering center, or is he one of these wave of the future guys too?

BTW, who won that series?

I think Diop is something of a hybrid. When he was heavy, he simply could not play. He couldn't play at all. When he lost a bunch of weight and got some athleticism about him, he stood a chance. (He's still a sieve, but at least he's an active sieve.)

But yes, Diop is a perfect example of my point. The extra weight was detrimental to his game. Only when he got sleeker and more athletic was he able to log some meaningful minutes.

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think Diop is something of a hybrid. When he was heavy, he simply could not play. He couldn't play at all. When he lost a bunch of weight and got some athleticism about him, he stood a chance. (He's still a sieve, but at least he's an active sieve.)

But yes, Diop is a perfect example of my point. The extra weight was detrimental to his game. Only when he got sleeker and more athletic was he able to log some meaningful minutes.

but that was primarily due to the fact that Diop's frame was not meant to carry that original weight...and that the weight in question was fat and not well defined muscle...as compared to a Damp or Shaq like frame.

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 02:46 AM

That's the point, Sike. If Diop had the frame of Damp and Shaq, he would be as slow as Damp and Shaq.

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

That's the point, Sike. If Diop had the frame of Damp and Shaq, he would be as slow as Damp and Shaq.

and that would be a problem playing against only just about the suns.

of course, if Diop had any....any offensive skills like say...uh...Shaq...then the suns would pay dearly for not having a big man.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

As I mentioned earlier, Big Z and Damp, neither one, could find the court when the championship was determine for their respective teams.

Say what you want about Detroit and Phoenix, they have both played in the conference finals the last two years. And neither one of them plays a center.

Ben Wallace may be an undersized center, but he is still a center in every sense of the word.

Quote:

What they play is athletes. Ahtletes will always win out.

Shaq wins out because he is a good athlete. Other 7'2" guys lose out because they are not.

It's becoming an athlete's league. The days of the lumbering center are probably over.

I definitely agree that the league is becoming much more athletic. But I just don't buy that the importance of size and strength are diminishing. I haven't seen a single solitary piece of evidence to suggest this. Really, it's as absurd as saying that the importance of shooting is diminishing.

But you can't point to Phoenix and say that players like Erick Dampier have no place in the NBA anymore because he didn't get minutes in that series. Phoenix is the lone exception. And frankly, I didn't like the coaching move anyway. I would've liked to have seen Damp in that series, but that's a different thread. The bottom line is, no other team in the league plays like Phoenix, and nobody has ever won a championship doing so. Your point is further mooted when you consider that Gana Diop, another conventional center took Damp's minutes.

Chum, it all comes down to rebounding and defense. Bigmen are just simply the best at this things. IMO, you can only get so far when you're always outrebounded, and can't protect the paint. Good low-post scorers are hard to come-by these days, but that makes them that much more valuble. They are as important as ever.

Lastly, I will once again say that I firmly believe that Phoenix's offense would be even more deadly with a "lumbering center" because fastbreaks are triggered by defensive stops. Rebounds, blocked shots, steals and forced turnovers... that's what makes a fast-breaking team go. Just pure speed and athleticism will only get you half way there.

Edit: You raise a valid point about Diop's weight. Still, the fact is, he's bigger than Diaw, and I think the Mavs size was most definitely an advantage in that series, and Phoenix's lack of size is what will ultimately end their run every year until they change.

sike · 06-06-2006, 02:54 AM

Points for spiral for not only using “mooted” but also for italicizing it

chumdawg · 06-06-2006, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I definitely agree that the league is becoming much more athletic. But I just don't buy that the importance of size and strength are diminishing. I haven't seen a single solitary piece of evidence to suggest this. Really, it's as absurd as saying that the importance of shooting is diminishing.

Shooting as a skil has been diminishing for many years now. As I'm sure you have noticed.

Quote:

But you can't point to Phoenix and say that players like Erick Dampier have no place in the NBA anymore because he didn't get minutes in that series. Phoenix is the lone exception.

Why not? Why are the "lone exception?" They have played in the conference finals two years running, and don't show signs of letting up. Why should they be summarily dismissed? Can any other Western team stake such a claim? No, I don't think so.

If Ben Wallace is a center, so is Josh Powell. Neither is, and neither will ever be.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-06-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Shooting as a skil has been diminishing for many years now. As I'm sure you have noticed.

The game is less perimeter oriented than it has been in the past, yes, but shooting is as fundamental to the game as breathing is to sustaining life. Shooting, rebounding, driving.... Chum, that's called basketball.

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Why not? Why are the "lone exception?" They have played in the conference finals two years running, and don't show signs of letting up. Why should they be summarily dismissed? Can any other Western team stake such a claim? No, I don't think so.

Yes chum, I think they can be dismissed in the same way that the Mavericks were always dismissed.

And, I don't mean to sidetrack the thread here, but again I have to say that I think Phoenix's appearance in the conference finals this year is a complete fraud. They were bailed out by the flaw in the seeding. So they beat the Lakers and Clippers in seven games each, neither of which won 50 games? Sorry, but I ain't f*cking impressed.

So yes... I am dismissing them. They didn't get past the Mavs, and I damn sure don't think they could've gotten past the Spurs, Pistons, or Heat. IMO, the 2006 Heat are the equivalent of the 2004 Mavs. Pretenders.

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If Ben Wallace is a center, so is Josh Powell. Neither is, and neither will ever be.

Chum, now you're just getting ridiculous. If Ben Wallace isn't a center, than neither was Bill Russell. Neither was Moses Malone. He is a center in every way shape and form.

bobatundi · 06-07-2006, 01:21 PM

There's an ESPN Insider link about "Marion the odd man out in Phoenix." I just let my subscription expire, as I'm gonna need that $5 for diapers every month--anybody read the article? Anything insightful? Find it hard to believe they'd let him go--I would think a front line of Diaw, Stoudemire & Marion would be the frontrunner for second best team in the West next season...