Hypothetical: - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 03-09-2007, 03:07 AM

Chum if you didn't enter every discussion by talking down to people and having an anti-mav agenda (San Antonio is dangerous, Cuban sucks, Finley was a hero) you would be taken more seriously.

Besides, I think its perfectly reasonable to dislike a guy that played his ass off against your team and nearly eliminated your team in the playoffs. I am not saying that it was an unreasonable move by Finley which is what you are trying to say I'm saying. It just really stings when a player does it.

chumdawg · 03-09-2007, 03:13 AM

Make yourself clear, then. I took you to mean that you thought it was an unreasonable move by Finley when you said that you thought it was an unreasonable move by Finley.

It would probably be best if I didn't respond to some of the other things you said, except to say that yes, for many of us fans who were here far longer than you, Finley was a hero. And yes, I suspect that San Antonio might be dangerous.

But neither of those is anti-Mav. The former is very much pro-Mav, in a way that anyone who hates Finley because he joined the Spurs would never, ever be able to understand. As for the latter, you can consider me your sentry. Trouble may lurk on the horizon.

MFFL · 03-09-2007, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Sounds like you are the one filled with hate here.

LOL - who have I attacked? Have I said you were silly? Have I compared your rant to an ape rant? Yours is the post dripping with venom.

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And if you cant find the article where Finley was called out, that is not my fault and I'm not looking it up myself. BTW it was Don Nelson that called out Finley (believe it or not it was the truth). If you cant remember it its your fault. People remember that time better than you do and that is why you are in the minority here. If Don Nelson looks on his goldenboy and sees slacking and lockeroom pouting, I dont see how you can say from the outside that you have inside information that Finley was not slacking.

I remember that. Nellie told Finley to play harder - Finley played harder. End of story. Wasn't Jet called out by Dirk for being an idiot? Wasn't Dampier called out? Occasionally players get called out - you are reading WAAAAY too much into it.

I never heard anything about pouting. I remember that Fish posted some gossip (once) about that but Fish is a not a credible source since his site is owned by Cuban. No reporter of any reputation wrote anything - and they look for those stories because those stories get national attention which makes the reporter look good.

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I dont see how you have debunked crap. San Antonio is a prime location. Ok. Great. What has that proved? Nothing. Finley wanted a championship and he thought he would have more success in San Antonio. San Antonio is our rival. Can you see how Mavs would be mad? Isnt it just a tiny bit understandable or is your hatred of Cuban and your love for Finley so strong you cant even understand the feelings.

A rivalry has to go both ways. What we had with San Antonio wasn't a rivalry. Most Mavs fans were ENVIOUS of the Spurs and wanted to beat them but the Spurs fans didn't worry themselves too much about us. The Suns weren't our rivals - we hadn't beaten them either. On the flip side, the Rockets aren't our rivals because we don't care about them very much.

We had a rivalry with the Kings because both teams had elimanted the other in the playoffs. It was a pretty good rivalry for awhile too.

I can see why it would piss some fans off that Finley went to a club that we WANTED to be rivals with. But it would have pissed off those fans to watch Finley win a championship on our court if he had signed with the Heat. Those same fans would have been pissed if Finley had signed with Phoenix. Again I don't see your point - three of the four teams that Finley decided amongst were our opponents in the playoffs. Did you think Finley should have signed with New York or some other garbage team? Why? It wasn't his actions that made him a free agent. It was a money move by Cuban.

And I don't hate Cuban (I'm a little embarassed by him but that's all). He makes business decisions - some good, some bad. But if he hadn't cut Finley then Finley COULDN'T sign with the Spurs. So if someone is a traitor, then that traitor has to be (by definition) Mark Cuban.

And while Finley is my favorite non-Maverick, I root for the Mavericks.

MFFL · 03-09-2007, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Anyway, I think its pretty clear why people wanted a talented guy that could shoot. Same reason we picked up NVE, Stackhouse.....you name it. Talented vets are prized even if they have had problems with past teams. I dont see how you can be so smug with your argument that teams wouldnt want Finley if he had problems with the coach/team. Its not a very powerful argument.

Smug, hmm. That's a word that just jumps out at you.

Anyway back to the point I forgot in the last post - name ONE player that San Antonio has EVER signed that was a problem player at the time when the Spurs signed him.

MFFL · 03-09-2007, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Not even funny how silly you are being MFFL

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being a lockerroom cancer

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he left because he was a cancer.

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He couldnt accept his role and he didnt put in the effort. The effort he is putting in now in San Antonio is just salt in the wounds.

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MFFL get off your mad apehorse

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he was the one that played so poorly and accepted his role so terribly that we had to get rid of him.

EL you HATE Finley and you attack anyone who attempts to defend him. And I'm not really defending him - I know Finley had to go to make this an Avery Johnson team. But when you make an omelet you have to break eggs - one of those broken eggs is the possibility that Finley might go to another team and make your job a little harder. But the Mavs HAD to have known that it was a possibility and they made the decision anyway.

It's not like Finley asked to be released and made a promise that if released he would sign with a team in the East. THAT would have been the mark of a traitor.

bernardos70 · 03-09-2007, 03:53 AM

Yeah, I remember Don Nelson criticizing Finley back then, I was pretty shocked at the article. This one article will be hard to find, especially because that was not the whole point of the article, but a Nelson quote somewhere in it made that pretty clear. There was a thread about this before, with that article quoted.

To the original question: I don't know, I don't think so, why give players a free pass? Sure he busted his ass for a couple of years in Dallas. But his best wasn't enough to do it. He's a pretty average player right now, below average. So no, he would not help the team, no contract for him.

Reward him for sticking with Dallas for all the bad years? He was already rewarded for that. To the tune of millions upon millions upon millions of dollars.

EricaLubarsky · 03-09-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

Smug, hmm. That's a word that just jumps out at you.

Anyway back to the point I forgot in the last post - name ONE player that San Antonio has EVER signed that was a problem player at the time when the Spurs signed him.

Really bad logic there.

Anyway, even if you are right you are wrong here.
1) this discussion has come up a billion times on this site and has never answered a thing.
2) people are sick of people coming in and sounding self-righteous over Nash, Finley and Cuban.
3) you are sounding like a nut with your multiple posts all trying to make me sound bad.

anyway, you make it sound like I don't understand the facts. The mavs released Finley. I know it. They knew he could sign with the Spurs. I know that. Whenever you want to make a point you repeat some other fact as if I didn't know it.

Fact is Finley was costing us 28 million dollars+ with tax. The last year he played for us he just didnt show that he deserved to stay. He went to the Spurs which hurt the same that Nash went to the Suns and it hurt. There isnt any ifs and ors buts about those facts, so dont try to argue them. I'm saying that when he was here he wasnt listening to his coaches, which was a reasonable thing to take away from the articles of the time. I'm also saying that he was a distraction in the lockeroom and when it came time to make the decision on who to cut, Finleys name was up there. Had he been an angel his name wouldnt have been even mentioned. The cut didnt just happen to him. That makes the issue gray when you are trying to make it black and white, with Finley standing at the right hand of g-d.

EricaLubarsky · 03-09-2007, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Make yourself clear, then. I took you to mean that you thought it was an unreasonable move by Finley when you said that you thought it was an unreasonable move by Finley.

It would probably be best if I didn't respond to some of the other things you said, except to say that yes, for many of us fans who were here far longer than you, Finley was a hero. And yes, I suspect that San Antonio might be dangerous.

But neither of those is anti-Mav. The former is very much pro-Mav, in a way that anyone who hates Finley because he joined the Spurs would never, ever be able to understand. As for the latter, you can consider me your sentry. Trouble may lurk on the horizon.

I think I did in my first post. If I said it was unreasonable then quote me please because I dont see me saying two different things. I said there was reason for him to be waived, and I said there was reason to not have him back after he played against us.

And dont pull that fanhood longer crap. Just because Im not cryiing about Finley doesnt mean Im a johnny-come-lately.

and what the hell does that bolded stuff even mean? Is that a threat? Are you saying the Mavs are going to lose in the playoffs? I cant even tell. You are so weird sometimes.

Usually Lurkin · 03-09-2007, 07:21 AM

Finley's release from the Mavs was all business. There were money factors: Mavs save a ton. And basketball factors: Someone thought Dirk needed it to finaly step into MVP mode? He wouldn't fight to get to the basket? He was hesitant to take a reduced role on the Mavs?

Finley's choice of San Antonio was all business. He wanted a ring. There were money reasons: He was able to sign for cheap cause Cuban's still paying him. And bbasketball reasons: Maybe he thought he could do a good job there in an off-the-bench shooter role (Was he really willing to do that for the Spurs but not do that here? That would be crappy of him.). Judging the entire span of his time there, I'm not real sure he's consistent enough in that role to do it here.

If the Mavs have an opportunity to sign him as a player, it should also be a business decision, based on who else is available, and what the team needs. Personally, I'd rather have someone like Stack as the wiley veteran leader cause he fights hard and will drive it to the hole.

If the Mavs want to have an excuse to give Fin a championship ring as a reward for everything he did here, I'm all for that. They could hire him as a drills coach or equipment manager or something.

dude1394 · 03-09-2007, 07:47 AM

At the risk of weighing in here. Finley's release was not about "only money". It was talent level, locker room presence and what AJ wanted from him, it had to be. I just don't believe to be honest that Finley would have been let go for only money. I do think money played a big part, but that wasn't the only thing.

I do not begrudge mike going to san antonio, but I'm not going to like it either, that was mike's choice, he made it and my choice is to not like it much.

Now back to the point of the thread, again he's just not good enough it seems to me to have back on the team. He doesn't play the defense you want from a backup (on Avery's team) and his offense is too spotty. He also has zero handles and we don't have a post-up player throwing the ball out for a 3 every play, we have a much more motion-oriented, ball-handling offense. Mike doesn't even seem to have the handles that Buckner does, or he's so averse to using them to get into the lane you wouldn't know.

He doesn't have the right skill set for this team.

u2sarajevo · 03-09-2007, 08:58 AM

Excellent point dude...

Finley is no question a legendary Maverick. I love him for giving it his all when this team was a pathetic shell of what it is now.

But the question of this thread was if you would take him back on this team, I guess if he were to become available. I just don't see where he would fit. Who's minutes do you give to him? Only play him in garbage minutes? Even then the rookies should be getting the minutes not an aging veteran.

And yes, I mentioned that he made a "bee line for our mortal enemy" but that was meant as a slam on the Spurs more than it was for Finley. Everyone knew why he went to the Spurs. I don't blame him at all. The same thing happens every year. That doesn't make the fact that someone I spent years cheering for became part of a team that I really don't like go away.

jthig32 · 03-09-2007, 09:05 AM

Gotta agree with Chum here. Calling Finley a traitor is silly. It's hard for me to see him in a Spurs uniform, and there's a certain amount of dislike associated with him when I watch the Spurs, but that's just my Spurs hate rubbing off.

I don't begrudge Fin one bit for finding a situation where he thought he could win. We have a huge double standard with athletes. We accuse them of not caring about winning when they sign with a crappy team for a lot of money, and we accuse them for chasing a ring when they sign with a good team.

I, for one, look forward to the day when Fin retires so we can hang his jersey in the rafters, and let him know how much we appreciated what he meant to this franchise.

That said...while he's on the Spurs? F-em.

Usually Lurkin · 03-09-2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Gotta agree with Chum here. Calling Finley a traitor is silly. It's hard for me to see him in a Spurs uniform, and there's a certain amount of dislike associated with him when I watch the Spurs, but that's just my Spurs hate rubbing off.

I don't begrudge Fin one bit for finding a situation where he thought he could win. We have a huge double standard with athletes. We accuse them of not caring about winning when they sign with a crappy team for a lot of money, and we accuse them for chasing a ring when they sign with a good team.

I, for one, look forward to the day when Fin retires so we can hang his jersey in the rafters, and let him know how much we appreciated what he meant to this franchise.

That said...while he's on the Spurs? F-em.

If he wanted to come back to play for the mavs, would you take him? If you had some reservations about taking him back, what would those reservations be?

jthig32 · 03-09-2007, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

If he wanted to come back to play for the mavs, would you take him? If you had some reservations about taking him back, what would those reservations be?

My reservations would be linked only to his abilities to help the team.

I'm telling you, once that Spurs jersey comes off for the last time, he goes back to being Fin, one of my favorite basketball players of all time.

u2sarajevo · 03-09-2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

My reservations would be linked only to his abilities to help the team.

I'm telling you, once that Spurs jersey comes off for the last time, he goes back to being Fin, one of my favorite basketball players of all time.

Precisely.

I know in football players that have played for a team the best years of their career leave, and then when ready to retire they sign with the team with a contract that is meaningless because the intent is to allow the player to retire with his "team". Does that happen in the NBA?

dude1394 · 03-09-2007, 10:18 AM

Now signing with the mavs so he could retire as a mav..Great, got no problems with that. As mentioned many times before, watching our guys with their hands over their heart during the national anthem I always think fondly of Fin. Always will.

basuketobaru · 03-09-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

I know in football players that have played for a team the best years of their career leave, and then when ready to retire they sign with the team with a contract that is meaningless because the intent is to allow the player to retire with his "team". Does that happen in the NBA?

I don't recall that ever happening, which probably has to do with the different salary structures of the two leagues. For the Mavs to take Finley back they would pretty much have to give him a *guaranteed* contract for the veteran's minimum. Even if he retired after a couple of days, he would still count against the cap (and in the Mavs case the luxury tax) for the whole year.

fluid.forty.one · 03-09-2007, 11:16 AM

No thanks

Mavfreak · 03-09-2007, 12:22 PM

I doubt that owners and GMs are motivated by sentiment with regard to players. If the team felt they needed Finley, he would not have been released. I like him and enjoyed watching his play, however, it did not crush me when he left. I was not happy when Nash went to brighten the Suns. If the Spurs can beat the Mavs at playoffs I don't think Finley will be the reason. He is not a traitor in any sense of the term, he's a pro player who happens to work for the opposition, nothing more. If the Mavs want him back that's cool mit mir. Cheers, Buck

Flacolaco · 03-09-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

If he wanted to come back to play for the mavs, would you take him? If you had some reservations about taking him back, what would those reservations be?

Where would he fit into the "team defense" culture of the mavs?
He has his uses. Just not here. The talent bar is raised a little too high here.
It's nothing personal against fin, it's just basketball.

That's too bad that NBA teams can't do that for retiring players. I don't think I'd mind that all that much.

*caution:hockey reference* When Brett Hull went to the Red Wings we were absolutely mutinous, but now that he's retired and lives in Dallas and works for the Stars we all love him again. Of course he scored the cup winning goal....Fin never did anything like that.

DLord · 03-09-2007, 01:05 PM

The following point was made by V2M and pretty much ignored by everyone. But it is (a) factual and (b) makes this discussion about the merits of signing Finley this summer completely pointless.
------------------

FINLEY IS TOTALLY INELIGIBLE TO BE ON THE MAVS ROSTER (regardless of the scenario) UNTIL THE SUMMER OF 2008. His current contract with the Spurs ends this summer, and there's no doubt he will find a way to sign with someone for multiple years. He's already 34, and by the time he is a free agent again he'll be at least 2 or 3 years further down that proverbial hill and no one here will care where his rocking chair resides.

u2sarajevo · 03-09-2007, 01:07 PM

Yeah DLord... but this was a hypothetical question.

That's what happens when you have 4 days off between games.

alexamenos · 03-09-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

The following point was made by V2M and pretty much ignored by everyone. But it is (a) factual and (b) makes this discussion about the merits of signing Finley this summer completely pointless.

geez....DLord, since when do facts and relevance have anything to do with a discussion in an internet forum?

Thespiralgoeson · 03-09-2007, 02:17 PM

While I wouldn't go as far as to call him a cancer, anyone who thinks Fin being waived was solely a cost-cutting move, and had nothing to do with basketball is in denial. In the 04-05 season, it was clear to anyone with even minimal observational skills that Fin was unhappy, even before Avery took over. Once Nellie stepped aside, and Avery became the head coach, Finley's fate was sealed. It was painfully obvious that they didn't see eye-to-eye and that there wasn't really a place for him on the team anymore. It was either him or Stack, and Stack was Avery's guy.

As for whether I'd have him back? For the plain sentimentality of it all, of course in my heart I'd love to see him come back to the Mavs. However, from an actual basketball standpoint, I don't see where he'd fit on the roster. In the past, as far as sixth men go, I would've taken Fin over Stack in a heartbeat. Now I'm not so sure.

Usually Lurkin · 03-09-2007, 02:21 PM

yeah, DLord,
just answer the question *if* Finley had a chance to come back to the Mavs would you want the Mavs to take him?

DLord · 03-09-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

yeah, DLord,
just answer the question *if* Finley had a chance to come back to the Mavs would you want the Mavs to take him?

Do I lust for the Mavs to add a 37-year-old jump shooter with no tread left on the tires, (which would be the first real occasion to pursue this idea)? Ummm no.

PS - It would be "nice" for Finley to come back one day and join up and get a ring. He put in years of gallant service here. Then again, it would also be nice if we could sign and bestow rings on Ro Blackman, Brad Davis, Derek Harper, and many others. But you win rings by filling your roster with people who have the skills at that point to create wins, not by engaging in attempts to revisit days gone by.

Usually Lurkin · 03-09-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

Do I lust for the Mavs to add a 37-year-old jump shooter with no tread left on the tires, (which would be the first real occasion to pursue this idea)? Ummm no.

when you take a rorshach, do you tell they psychiatrist: "no. really, all I see is a bloch of ink"

Quote:

PS - It would be "nice" for Finley to come back one day and join up and get a ring. He put in years of gallant service here. Then again, it would also be nice if we could sign and bestow rings on Ro Blackman, Brad Davis, Derek Harper, and many others. But you win rings by filling your roster with people who have the skills at that point to create wins, not by engaging in attempts to revisit days gone by.

Won't Brad and Ro get a ring?

alexamenos · 03-09-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Won't Brad and Ro get a ring?

two words...

Jim Spanarkel.......the man has it coming to him.

Flacolaco · 03-09-2007, 04:11 PM

curious....how many non players get rings when a team wins a title?

Dirkadirkastan · 03-09-2007, 04:24 PM

Steve Nash rooted for Dallas in the finals, Michael Finley rooted for Miami. He WANTED the Mavs to lose, even after the Spurs were eliminated and he couldn't do jack about it.

Just throwing it out there...

Usually Lurkin · 03-09-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

curious....how many non players get rings when a team wins a title?

I'm pretty sure I heard that everyone gets a ring. Including trainers and equipment managers. It might be up to the individual team to get as many as they want. I do hope that those fat guys that dance during the timeout get rings.

Dirkadirka, how do you know who Finley rooted for in the finals?

Dirkadirkastan · 03-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Dirkadirka, how do you know who Finley rooted for in the finals?

I think it was during one of the Mavs/Spurs games this year. They didn't show the interview, but the announcers reported it while the game was going.

ty · 03-09-2007, 05:49 PM

If he came back, I could dust off my old Finley Mavs Jersey =/

dude1394 · 03-09-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I'm pretty sure I heard that everyone gets a ring. Including trainers and equipment managers. It might be up to the individual team to get as many as they want. I do hope that those fat guys that dance during the timeout get rings.

Dirkadirka, how do you know who Finley rooted for in the finals?

if those fat guys get a ring I want one too. Now Champ..that's another story.