Coaching vs. coachability - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Spurs Fan · 04-23-2008, 10:36 AM

It's pretty obvious that I'm a Spurs fan. With that out of the way, I'll also say that in the past 6 years or so, I've seen more Mav's games than I have Spurs, simply because of where I live (also because I'm too cheap to get League Pass

). I've been a member of this board for several years now, and I hope no one thinks I only post here when the Mav's are down-and-out. If you do, please check my post history.

I do have some questions for y'all, however. I've read on here that most, if not all, think that AJ is the problem with this team. His stubborness, inability to make adjustments, etc., are what is causing your team to not reach that ultimate goal. I've thought about this a lot, simply because I've always enjoyed the rivalry that our teams have had, so here goes....

I think it's fair to say that the Mav's have an inherent flaw, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. If you abstract it up some, do you think it's organizational (e.g. your front office doesn't put the proper talent around your superstar)? Could it possibly be that the talent you have on your team is not the appropriate mix (probably goes back to an organizational flaw)? Some on here have said the team have tuned AJ out. Is it because his "strategies" have ultimately proven unsuccesful? Could it possibly be that your superstar is not all that "coachable"? What I mean by that is, could Dirk think that, regardless of what AJ tells him to do, that he will stick to what his German mentor tells him to do? Y'all have much, much more invested in the Mavericks than I ever will, so I'm just looking for your opinion. According to all reports, Tim Duncan is very coachable, and Popovich yells at him for mistakes, the same as he does the last guy on the bench. Can/does Dirk allow the same latitude for the coach?

I'm not blaming Dirk for your teams woes; I'm simply curious what y'all think.

Dim499 · 04-23-2008, 10:44 AM

No, thats stupid. Dirk has always done everything Avery wanted him to do. He has completely changed his game within a year because Avery wanted him to.

He wants him to be an iso playeR? Done. He wants him to be a playmaker? Done. He wants him to be a back to the basket player? Done. He wants him not to shoot threes as much? Done.

Look at any playoff game in the Nellie era and you won't believe your eyes about how different Dirk plays nowadays. And if World War II has taught us anything, it's that we Germans are the definition of coachable.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-23-2008, 10:47 AM

If it wasn't for Dirk's coachability, then Avery would have been fired a long time ago. Dirk has been the mask on the true Avery Johnson. Can't mask it any longer....

Spurs Fan · 04-23-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dim499

No, thats stupid. Dirk has always done everything Avery wanted him to do. He has completely changed his game within a year because Avery wanted him to.

He wants him to be an iso playeR? Done. He wants him to be a playmaker? Done. He wants him to be a back to the basket player? Done. He wants him not to shoot threes as much? Done.

Look at any playoff game in the Nellie era and you won't believe your eyes about how different Dirk plays nowadays. And if World War II has taught us anything, it's that we Germans are the definition of coachable.

Fair enough, and I appreciate your opinion. So, what do you think the issue is, and do you think it's inherent, or transient?

P.S. I should have said earlier that I believe there can be successful seasons without winning the whole enchilada. I'm not sure I'd call it a moral victory to go further than anyone expected, but I do think that there are levels of success.

ty · 04-23-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurs Fan

Fair enough, and I appreciate your opinion. So, what do you think the issue is, and do you think it's inherent, or transient?

P.S. I should have said earlier that I believe there can be successful seasons without winning the whole enchilada. I'm not sure I'd call it a moral victory to go further than anyone expected, but I do think that there are levels of success.

I don't want "success." I've had that for the past 5 years. I want a championship.

MavsX · 04-23-2008, 12:26 PM

I don't know what the problem is. Maybe dalmations will post here and mention it. He's pretty damn smart. I feel as though the mavs have given up on AJ's "philosophy". You know, when the Mavs failed in the finals. AJ was there to tell the whole gang, "it's okay, next year". Then last year we busted through the league winning 67 games. Then we had an early exit. This year AJ probably said "it's okay". Then we struggle all season long, which put us in a position to be at the bottom of the west. Now we have a tough opponent here in the 1st round. The hornets are probably easier than the other opponents in the west, but that is beside the point.

The mavs can try and try again, but in the end...maybe they are not good enough. On paper it looks like we have all our bases covered, but on the court our weaknesses that we don't see are exposed. Then we need to bring in all the mental issues with this team, and how the media has blown everything out of proportion.

Nobody on our team drives to the bucket and is looking for a foul. Or if they do that, after a bit they forget and they settle for jumpers. Sometimes nobody is there for a rebound. And the iso's are just killing me. Why have j-kidd bring the ball up and then pass it the stackhouse/terry. Then j-kidd is just standing around! Why have j-kidd on this team if he is not going to make the passes. I just don't get it. I guess we need a true shooting guard. Damp is good but not the best Offensive threat. He is better than nothing...

I don't know..i think the first thing is lose the coach. I have no idea who you hire. But hire somebody else. Hell, hire that Indian guy who works at 7-Eleven.

Edit: Dirk is coachable. He used to always shoot the three ball. Now he posts up players and drive to the hoop. He has more 'tools' in the toolbox than he used to. The first half of the season Dirk shot no 3's because AJ wanted him with his back to the basket. Dirk is amazing, and is a true match up nightmare for most opponents. I just don't think he has been utilized under AJ's "system". On top of that, Dirk get's almost no help sometimes. The help he does get comes from different places on different nights, and too many of those guys are too streaky.....Dirk is a real hero.

fluid.forty.one · 04-23-2008, 12:28 PM

I think Dirk was willing to let Avery tell him what to do up until last night... so from that standpoint, your observation makes sense.

fluid.forty.one · 04-23-2008, 12:37 PM

oh and I'd like to take this time, and space, to say how awesome dirk has been in these playoffs. not that it matters since we're losing, but I know personally I was worried about him continuing his slump from last year. He's shooting 50%, 40% from 3, for 29 a game.

And we're still getting killed.

Underdog · 04-23-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

oh and I'd like to take this time, and space, to say how awesome dirk has been in these playoffs. not that it matters since we're losing, but I know personally I was worried about him continuing his slump from last year. He's shooting 50%, 40% from 3, for 29 a game.

And we're still getting killed.

Personally, the LAST person I blame is Dirk (I'm looking at you, Champ!)

MavsX · 04-23-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Personally, the LAST person I blame is Dirk (I'm looking at you, Champ!)

those guys are a bunch of flamers...champ included!

MavsX · 04-23-2008, 01:36 PM

Underdog · 04-23-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

Obviously you missed when Avery took credit for "making Dirk a better player"...

dalmations202 · 04-23-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurs Fan

I think it's fair to say that the Mav's have an inherent flaw, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. If you abstract it up some, do you think it's organizational (e.g. your front office doesn't put the proper talent around your superstar)? Could it possibly be that the talent you have on your team is not the appropriate mix (probably goes back to an organizational flaw)? Some on here have said the team have tuned AJ out. Is it because his "strategies" have ultimately proven unsuccesful? Could it possibly be that your superstar is not all that "coachable"? What I mean by that is, could Dirk think that, regardless of what AJ tells him to do, that he will stick to what his German mentor tells him to do? Y'all have much, much more invested in the Mavericks than I ever will, so I'm just looking for your opinion. According to all reports, Tim Duncan is very coachable, and Popovich yells at him for mistakes, the same as he does the last guy on the bench. Can/does Dirk allow the same latitude for the coach?

Inherent flaw is this:

Mavs have a motivational coach that loves normalcy. Avery doesn't seem to be a X's and O's guy who thinks out of the box. He seems to be a "out work" them type of guy.

The Mavs team has the biggest "outside the box" player in the NBA right now.

Square peg, round hole. Avery may not be the problem, but he may not be the answer either.

The NBA game centers around individual play, not team play. Either one player slashes and gets easy bucket or free throws, or player plays the post and gets easy buckets or free throws. To help out on nights that the officiating is not calling lots of fouls, you need a shooter.

So teams with a slasher, inside force, and shooter are always at an advantage. Kobe/LBJ gives you the shooter and slasher. When is Kobe better? --- when he is paired with an inside force (Gasol). This to me is standards basketball. If you have all three of these which are very good, then the game will be won on the defensive end.

If you don't have these three, then you have to work "outside" the box. Avery is not an outside the box type guy.

Last year Dallas made Dirk the inside force (not his forte), by clearing out down low, and then Iso'ing him to allow him to be that player. Then they asked JHo to slash, and Terry to be the shooter. Then they played great D. This won them many games. Problem was, when GS doubled Dirk anytime he touched the ball, Terry couldn't hit a shot, and JHo forgot that he was a slasher instead of jumpshooter -- it all came crashing down.

Guess what, they hit a hot team again. Now Dirk is trying to do it all while doubled, Josh isn't slashing, and Terry can't hit the broad side of the barn. Avery can't get outside the box to look in, and fans are frustrated because even the defense looks bad.

That, IMO is the inherent flaw. Square Peg - round hole.

Usually Lurkin · 04-23-2008, 03:06 PM

Dirk is very coachable. Many think that perhaps he's too coachable (and should put his foot down and tell everybody to screw off, give him the ball, and watch us win)

I think Josh Howard and Jason Terry (and stackhouse, and harris, and . . . ) maybe are not so coachable.

Avery may have some serious flaws, but I think any coach will get just as much (or as little) as Avery has from the secondary players this year. I think Avery had them playing at their peak for a very long stretch of time, but when it came to making some adjustments from how they played then, Terry, Josh, and others haven't been able to change.

DevinHarriswillstart · 04-23-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I think Dirk was willing to let Avery tell him what to do up until last night... so from that standpoint, your observation makes sense.

I hope Dirk ignores everything Avery says from this point out...

Kidd Karma · 04-23-2008, 03:19 PM

The Mavs are playing 1 on 5 basketball right now. ISO Dirk and everyone else play off him. Same crap as with Devin. Kidd is now on the team. Kidd needs to have the rock in his hand much more than he has had in the half court offense. To go from a 1 on 5 game to a say a 3 on 5 game, Kidd, can use Dampier as a screen and roller, at the top, while at the wings, Terry, Howard or Dirk are setting screens either for a pop out jumper, or Howard cutting to the basket, when you have more than 1 person moving, that creates so much more avenues to score with. for whatever reason, Dirk is isolated and it lets the defense rest, it basically tells the defense we're isolated Dirk, so beat us if you can. Why give the defense that advantage? Keep them on their toes. Early on get a Damp high pick and roll and lob it at the cup, he picks up a foul or a dunk, but it gets Damp's motor going, gives Chandler/West somethinig else to think about it. Get Terry some space off either a Dirk/Damp screen, get him a quick jumper. Howard slash to the hoop off a Damp-Dirk double pick, even run Terry the opposite way, gives Kidd 2 options for a shot, a Terry curl off the stack or Howard at the cup. There are so many options if you use all 5 players. My favorite has always been to get Damp that quick pick and roll dunk early on in the first, you get that done, he's going to be a monster all night. Dirk I believe will easily pick his spots and when all the defenders are on tired legs...just like MJ, Dirk can go off in the 4th.

dionysos · 04-23-2008, 03:28 PM

What has driven me crazy this year is the almost total lack of off-ball movement (I guess a consequence of isolation plays) and the quick ball movement of multiple-pass sequences that find the open man for a jump shot or a drive toward the basket. When Kidd first arrived the team seemed to pick up the inclination to pass again (though, except for Kidd, the passes were not as crisp as in 2006-2007 and often bone-headed cross-court passes—I guess they lost the knack after a year of disuse).

If you don’t have people who can reliably drive to the basket you need some other kind of movement. I think it’s too late to make any changes this year. But Avery may well be someone who is stuck with a 1990s offensive mindset (isolations are fine as a change of pace, but once zone defenses became legal they could no longer be a team’s bread-and-butter play).

alby · 04-23-2008, 03:48 PM

In actuality, Dirk has given Avery 3 of his best physical years of his life, buying into Avery's plan/strategy, and the team has regressed. I think it's time for Avery to realize that the NBA is still built on "out working" the other team and all that, but it's also built on innovation and dynamic superstars--especially in the playoffs. We have had the personel to implement an innovating game plan, and we have had a dynamic superstar to utilize against helpless defenders, but Dallas for some reason just haven't done it.

Avery's forte, as stated earlier in the thread, is his ability to motivate his players and get his players to put in the extra effort to outwork the opposing team. Have you guys noticed how unmotivated we have looked against NO this year and GS last year? I've always felt that the onus is on the player, the individual, because frankly, they are the one's dribbling the ball and they are the one's taking the shot--not Avery Johnson. But, if your one positive characteristic trait is motivation, and that obviously isn't working; it is time to go.

And, if Avery really did state that if he didn't bring a championship to Dallas in three years, then it would be considered a failure; This summer would mark the end of his third full season as head coach, and it's time for Cuban to cut ties.