Wang's delima, and the World Game's. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Chef Ed · 09-05-2002, 12:18 PM

The Definition of Defection:

1. To disown allegiance to one's country, and take up residence in
another.

2. To abandon a position, or association often to join an opposing group

I don't want to get into an debate on the right's of people in the
world. We live in the United States, and we are fortunate to have the
right's, and the freedoms we have. With that said, we don't live in China, and we don't have the right to force our beliefs on a country that obviously doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks, and haven't cared for 1000's of years.

With that said, it seems to me that Wang has put himself in a possition to fail, and has put the Maverick's in a possition to abandon
something they have lobbied for for the last couple of years. The Dallas Maverick's(Donnie)have worked, and worked hard to get to the point that other countries allow him to come to their country, and scout, and eventually retain the right's of individuals to come to this country and play basketball. Donnie has instilled a large amount of trust, and respect for what he does. Because of this it has opened the door for other teams to do the same things the Mav's have been doing for the last decade, and that is evaluating, and retaining talent from abroad.

Because of selfishness of Wang, the Mav's have been put in an awkward possition, that quite frankly, they didn't deserve to be placed in. Does Wang have the right to defect? Sure he does. But let's not forget that he didn't come here in the bottom of a fishing boat. He was
paid Millions to come here, and play. He was given opportunities that most of China's population will never recieve. Not until he finished his contract, and got paid in full, did he decide to change the rules, that the China Government, and CBA placed before him. Donnie lobbied hard for him to come here, and play parts of a season. Wang was given rules that he had to follow, and now that he's paid he doesn't want to live up to those rules and expectations.

Is he defecting? You decide. But it seems to me that what ever label you want to place on it, the end result is that it has put a wrench in what Donnie Nelson has fought for over the last decade, and that is retaining the worlds best players to come, and participate in the greatest game on earth. Basketball... It's called trust. It's called
respect. Wang has shown neither, and personally I hope he is never allowed to play in the NBA again. That's the Reunion Rowdie in me. Sorry.

As far as the loss last night in the World Games, it seems to me that
if you are going to send America's best to represent America, why not
send the Best. That would be the NBA Champs(Lakers). The first Dream team was exactly that. The Dream Team. Magic, Larry, Mike, and Karl. It was just that. A Dream. It just seems to me that there is no time for a bunch of players that don't play together on a yearly basis to form a good enough team to represent. Send the NBA Champs. Problem solved.

As long as we continue to send our coaches to train, and bring players to play the gap will continue to close. The teams that play for other countries play yearly, and they are truly a team. We expect a bunch of All-Stars to just blend together in a matter of weeks because they are considered professionals. There is no time for a coach to instill his philosophy, or his style in a matter of weeks. So send the World Champs, and problem is solved. Then it is truly up to the rest of the world to catch up........

toucandave · 09-05-2002, 12:40 PM

It just seems to me that there is no time for a bunch of players that don't play together on a yearly basis to form a good enough team to represent. Send the NBA Champs. Problem solved.

What if the NBA Champs have a German, a Canadian, a Mexican, and a Chinese on the team?

Usually Lurkin · 09-05-2002, 12:56 PM

<< It just seems to me that there is no time for a bunch of players that don't play together on a yearly basis to form a good enough team to represent. Send the NBA Champs. Problem solved. >>

what if the best players on the NBA Champs say: "but, I wanna play sony playstation this summer," and, "My toe hurts"

Dooby · 09-05-2002, 01:11 PM

<< The Definition of Defection:

1. To disown allegiance to one's country, and take up residence in
another.

2. To abandon a position, or association often to join an opposing group

>>

The Definition of Asylum from the State Department and the INS:

Asylum may be granted to people who are already in the United States and are unable or unwilling to return their home country because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.

I can't find rules on defection from the State Department or the INS (really is a State Dept. issue and, as we all know, the INS is part of the Justice Department). I believe seeking asylum is the same thing. Until someone shows me a law that says differently, I am going to assume that defection requires seeking asylum. Based upon this definition, Wang can't get asylum in this country. Taking 1/2 your paycheck, contrary to popular opinion, is not persecution. If it were, I'd defect to the Virgin Islands.

Besides, defection takes two to tango. The US must be willing to grant asylum to Wang. I just don't see why the USA would be willing to do this. Thus, Wang is screwed.

pepperfletch · 09-05-2002, 02:05 PM

Chef, you have been whining this refrain over at DBB.com for some time now. I see nothing new in your post, your positon on Wang SUCKS there and sucks here.

Wang should be supported by the Mavs, not dumped. You are right Donnie went out across the world and secured Wang for the Mavs with his hard work, BUT HE SHOULD NOT ABANDON HIM in the battle with the CBA, Chinese governemnt etc. It is just basic human rights at work here, not under the table shadowy deals you continually say the Mavs MUST HONOR...

IF there are under the table deals, why not bring them out to the light of day so we can understand why anyone would just sell Wang down the river, just because it is work to fix the mess WANG, MAVS, NBA, CBA and China's government has gotten into? The real solution is to have Donnie (since you implie he started this and has such good relationship everywhere) open discussions with all the parties and work out compromises where EVRYONE can win. IT CAN HAPPEN. Wang can stay, CBA can get a piece (AND THEIR DEMAND FOR 50% SHARE OF WANGS EARNINGS IS IN FACT THE MAIN REASON THERE IS A PROBLEM BTW, NBA and MAVS can continue a positive relationship with China, and we fans get to see WANG develop into the good player he seems to be developing into...

I SIMPLY DO NOT SEE ANY REASON WANG NEEDS TO DEFECT TO SOLVE A BS MONEY PROBLEM....The whole issue of asylum etc can go away if everyone compromises some. I do not understand US taxes laws deep enough, but if Wang could deduct the Chinese take away before he pays US taxes, alot of problems are solved, but alas I do not believe our tax codes allows him to do so. Wang would get to net so damn little in the end, I see whay he is putting up a fight...YAO and BATEER will be next and THAT IS WHAT THE CBA IS THE MOST UPSET ABOUT....

Dooby · 09-05-2002, 02:38 PM

<< The whole issue of asylum etc can go away if everyone compromises some. I do not understand US taxes laws deep enough, but if Wang could deduct the Chinese take away before he pays US taxes, alot of problems are solved, but alas I do not believe our tax codes allows him to do so. Wang would get to net so damn little in the end, I see whay he is putting up a fight...YAO and BATEER will be next and THAT IS WHAT THE CBA IS THE MOST UPSET ABOUT.... >>

Tough to compromise with China because they are tough to negotiate with.

You may deduct foreign taxes from US taxes (technically, you deduct foreign taxes from income for tax purposes). I already said this in another thread. That does not solve any problems though. Would you like me to explain the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit? Or would a simple illustration be sufice. I won't do either unless specifically asked. Takes too much time.

pepperfletch · 09-05-2002, 02:48 PM

Thanks for the response Dooby, but the smart comment about "would you like me to explain further" was uncalled for. Also can anyone else confirm Dooby's assertion that the CBA's cut, techically not a foriegn tax I suspect, is fully deductable? It would save Wang quite a bit of tax money to US and may make it easier to solve this.

My point is not really to the tax implications, but to the fact that if we do not try to negotiate this mess we will never know where the issue truly stands...

Dooby · 09-05-2002, 03:24 PM

Not really that hard to confirm. Just think of it as a business expense.

Actually there is a foreign tax credit.

Look for yourself at 26 U.S.C. Section 901, et seq.

jacktruth · 09-05-2002, 03:53 PM

Does anybody really think this is about money?
Do you think the CBA (aka Chinese Government) cares about a few million dollars?

This is about political control vs. Free will.
China wants thier people to know that they do not have a right to make decisions on thier own. They WILL use Wang as a an example of what happens when you disobey. There is nothing little Donnie can do about it.

Wang's choices are:
1. Stay in the US and risk never playing pro basketball again because no team will risk him, and he can't legally get a paycheck.

2. Go back to China, be a foot-soldier for the rest of his life and never return to the US, or to the NBA.

I guarantee that if you could sign Wang for a salary of "US Citizenship," he would sign it without hesitation and work at Dairy Queen to pay the bills.

Chef Ed · 09-05-2002, 04:01 PM

I have secured a interview with the Maverick's Tommorrow. The questions that will be ask will be simple.

1. What agreement between the Mav's, the CBA, the China Government, and the NBA were made in order for Wang to play here. What commitment's did he have to make to play, and get paid.

2. Because of his decission not to return to China, is it classified as
a defection.

3. If he doesn't return, and he stays in the US, will he be able to still play in the NBA, and will the Mav's retain his rights.

4. How has this affected the Maverick's ability to scout, and retain
other players.

5. How does this affect the Rocket's ability to offer Ming a contract.

6. Why haven't the Mav's stood up, and backed Wang in his attempt to stay here instead of going home.

7. David Stern say's that until he fixes his problem he cant play in the
NBA. What does that mean? What does he has to fix.

The issue of money, and Taxes is a good one. If memory serves me
Wang wasn't under the same restraints as Ming is. I'm not sure, but
I will find out. I am also going to find out about the Visa issue,
and the comment about the US granting him Asylum is a good one.

If there are other questions, please post.

You are right as well, I have beaten this horse for a month now, but
until answers are given, I will continue to beat them. Donnie Nelson
has busted his butt to achieve the respect he has gotten. I don't see
how people can support Wang, when it is obvious that he has hurt
the Maverick's ability to draft, and scout foreign players. I just
don't get it. This is more sensitive than people want to acknowledge,
and I'm going to try to get to bottom of it........

pepperfletch · 09-05-2002, 04:12 PM

Dooby, thanks for the straight no insult answer, I take back my sharp come back as well.

I did yank at your chain in another post and I assume you responded back.

Thanks, PF

Chef, good job and I was also hard on you, but I now see you are trying to get to the bottom of this whole issue. I have been reacting to what I considered your continual willingness to seemingly blame everything on Wang. I see by the questions you are now asking the Mavs that you may have an open mind on the issue afterall. Best of luck finding out!

Chef Ed · 09-05-2002, 04:17 PM

Thanks, That was nice of you to say.

The column will be posted Friday night, or Saturday Morning, and then we will have something concrete to discuss. Right now, even my opinions are just that. The problem I have are all the holes. Mr. Elkin even implied that this is extreamly delicate, and maybe my use of the word Defection is not accurate, but I'm going to try my hardest to get to the bottom. See ya tommorrow......... Thanks again for the support..

pepperfletch · 09-05-2002, 05:51 PM

UPDATE found this from another site, but it suppoorts what we have been discussing...

Mike Fisher interveiwed Donnie Nelson and discussed a number of things, but here is info about Wang situation. I agree with poster that the Wang deal will work itself out...

I will join Steverino below and JUMP off my soapbox on this issue as well....

I also like Donnies answers on Lewis, MAVS will wait to the end and signing other free agents as having little focus...signing the current squad is the main drive....

Author: steverino
Date: 9/5/02 6:05:54 PM
Subject: FISH ASKS THE TOUGH QUESTIONS
Message: Fish just got off the line with Donnie Nelson and asked all the tough questions we have been asking him to do.

I have been asking why the Mavs could not start the negotitions with Wang and the CBA to solve and Fish asked Donnie and he said they were willing to do that, but they would always do what is best for the Mavs.

Fish asked about any agreement between Mavs and CBA/China and Donnie said their WAS NOT ONE.

Fish asked if Mavs could sign Wang and Donnie said sure, they could also sign and trade as he is still a MAVS asset! Donnie made it clear the Mavs will not give up the asset without securing something in return.

FISH great job and great answers from Donnie. I now feel better and will get off my soapbox as I now believe the Wang deal will work out just as Donnie said the Najera deal will be done.

This whole Wang deal this summer Donnie called part of Wang's contract neogotition for his new deal, just as Eddie's statements and hard positioning were part of his.

Donnie also seemed to discount ANY SIGNING of POPEYE, KEMP ETC as not being the issue, but Mavs have been focusing on signing all of the team we had here last year and going to war with them...again great news....

Finally, Donnie made it clear to a Fish question that Lewis will be given all the time he needs and they will hold the 4.5 open until he makes that very important decision...

KEVIN_NY · 09-05-2002, 08:29 PM

Chef Ed, next time before you get the fact straight or get an interview on Wang, SHUT THE UP! Wang was NOT paid MILLIONS to come here and play, he was paid the lowest range (around $400K) salary.
When you said Wang is selfish, you forgot that the Mavs and NBA as a whole are selfish and considering their benefits also. So don't paint Wang as a bad person and Mavs as angels. Don't get me wrong, Mavs is a great club. They have given China and Wang great help. China and Wang couldn't thank Mavs enough. People in this club have class. But you forgot now this is business, money, short term and long term interests. Don't throw your moral crap here.

Dooby, you have talked about the asylum issue quite a few times. And I was expecting some useful information this time, since you sound getting into it. But finally this time all you got are those craps? Some definitions from books with your ridiculous speculation! You should consult someone in the legal field if you want to talk about it repeatedly. I am telling you buddy, here in New York in Chinatown, Mexican town, eastern European town, whatever town, tens of thousands of people get political asylum from US gov each year by hiring those dirt cheap lawyers (three thousand bucks will do it, got it!). And MOST of these people who got it used f*kin fabricated stories. I personally know many, repeat, many people who got it and live and work here since then. INS is joke! In case you still don't get it. It is them who issued visas to terrorists, before and AFTER the 9.11 attack, when the f*ckin terrorists were already dead! I almost want to laugh each time when hearing you repeatedly "GUESS" US gov will not grant asylum to Wang. I tell you, US gov have and will grant asymlum to any one who has a f*cking lawyer!!

Wang will not defect. He will not do that. He lived very well when He was in China as THE best player. And if he go back, he still will be (Yao is in NBA). A little history: in early 90s, a Chinese player Ma Jian who disobeyed CBA's order and stayed in US for an extended time. After he came back later, he could still play in pro league ( he is still playing now). His punishment was merely not being included in National Team anymore. Since then, the country has made more progress, which means a more tolerating environment for its citizens (including Wang). So before we get the facts and information, stop the f*kin exaggeration on Wang's status.