How soon before the best player in the world is from overseas? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

David · 09-09-2002, 05:40 PM

Dirk.

Shaq is getting older and Dirk is getting better. He has added something to his game every year so far. I don't see Kobe getting much better or taller. There are other Americans, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady to name a few but none was named World Championship MVP recently. Having a Euro be the aknowledged best player in the world would add more insult to the recent US failure in the tournament.

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 05:48 PM

It will be a while, you named the guys who will always be considered better. Those guys did not play, so of course they wasn't named tourny MVP. You also can't compare numbers from the worlds, Dirk has to dominate for his team to win. I think Paul Pierce(seriously) and Michael Finley(yes a little bias) were the best players to play in the games.

Hoopsmeister · 09-09-2002, 06:14 PM

<< It will be a while, you named the guys who will always be considered better. Those guys did not play, so of course they wasn't named tourny MVP. You also can't compare numbers from the worlds, Dirk has to dominate for his team to win. I think Paul Pierce(seriously) and Michael Finley(yes a little bias) were the best players to play in the games. >>

?? No one who watched the tournament thinks Pierce was a better player than Dirk. He was quite obviously the best player there. As to the rest of David's list, people already argue over whether Dirk or Garnett is better. If Dirk shows improvement this year like he has the last 3 years and Garnett doesn't (like he hasn't the last 3 years), then it will be no question that Dirk is better than Garnett. That leaves Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. As David points out, Shaq is clearly edging closer and closer to retirement while Dirk, Kobe and Duncan are just entering their primes. The only real question is if Dirk can catch Duncan or not.

madape · 09-09-2002, 06:30 PM

Interesting thought David. However, it may have already happened. Hakeem is from overseas and was arguably the best player in the NBA when the Rockets won thier championships.

pepperfletch · 09-09-2002, 07:04 PM

David you are right on target...Dirk is now ahead of all but Shaq and Duncan in my opinion. While Kobe has alot of supporters, their are a lot of guys his size and close to ability: Pierce, TMac, V Carter, Finley just to name the obvious ones...

Seven Footers who can dominate are few. Size does matter in this game more than any other sport...

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 07:18 PM

The World Games is a lot different than the NBA, where Pierce shows who is better. Dirk was MVP on the World Games, there's no debating that. Let me clarify what I mean, I think Paul Pierce was the best player to play at the games. He did not play like it, nor did he have to. Dirk played more minutes in the games that I watched, and rightfully so. You can't begin to compare numbers because of the 2 different teams, and yes I agree Dirk played better in the World Games. Now when it comes to the NBA, I think Pierce is the better player.

The guys from ESPN that I emailed and asked all put Webber and Garnett over Dirk, right now. I, as a Mavs fan hope he does become better than those guys but everyone except the Mavs fans think he is not on par with those guys yet. He also listed McGrady who is a stud, and I myself put him right there with Kobe Bryant. Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan are the 2 best players in the game, hands down. I have seen rankings on some of the sports websites that don't have Dirk in the top 5(like alot see him as for some reason), or the top 10. If you look at this list from someone who has no reason to put this player ahead of that player, you will get someone elses opinion. Top 50 List

FilthyFinMavs · 09-09-2002, 07:49 PM

First off no way in hell is Dirk better than Duncan. I mean no offense but Duncan is on a whole nother planet right now. Dirk has a better trey than Duncan we know but is there anyting else u can honestly say Dirk is beter than Duncan? Im not Duncan fan but I gotta say that Duncan is the best player in the game as of right now other than Shaq. Who comes next passed Duncan and Shaq? Dirk right now has to improve defense to even be considered in these guys league. I give Dirk props for improving his rebounding but I gotta see Dirk play this season before I put him up there. As of right now I dont put Dirk in the top 5. The only thing that stops him from beign there is his passing and defense. I put Webber tied or right behind Dirk possibly behind him. My top 5

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
TMAC
Garnett

I Think I missed someone but I rank Kobe that high ebcause he has his rings same goes for Shaq and Duncan. If Kobe didtn have his 2 rings I would rank Pierce in front of him. Maybe cuz Pierce is one of my favs but ive got alot of respect for Pierce and u guys think Dirk is gettin better? Pierce is also.

Rhylan · 09-09-2002, 07:58 PM

Dirk is at least equal to Garnett now. At least. In a year or two, almost everyone will say that Dirk has the advantage.

T-Mac is great, top 7 for sure, but overrated. He has carried his team, but he's in the Leastern Conference.

I say Dirk is #4 right now behind Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. And it kills me to put Kobe on there, but you have to. Know why? Watching that loss to Argentina, watching Paul Pierce pathetically attempt to take over the game, I realized that if Kobe was on that team, that he would have carried them to victory. He would have. No doubt. He's not Jordan -- he could not strap a team on his back and beat the '93 Suns, or the '97 Jazz, or the Pacers or Knicks or all those teams Jordan whupped up on. BUT -- even tho' he is a li'l ol' bitch, and I don't like him one bit, Kobe would have carried Team USA past Argentina, Spain, Yugo, whoever.

That's something no one other than Duncan or Shaq could do.

So, I say you have Duncan and Shaq in one tier.

Kobe in another one.

Dirk at the top of a tier that includes T-Mac, Webber, and Garnett. Dirk and T-Mac ahead of Webber and Garnett for their abilities to carry a team offensively, and offensive versatility.

And maybe you have a Jason Kidd just below them.. 3 months ago I woulda said Pierce, but he needs to show more now. He showed his Eastern-ness in the WC's. As did Baron Davis and 'Dre Miller.. both of whom played like someone's girlfriend in Junior High playing horse in the driveway afterschool one day. But that's a whole different thread...

FilthyFinMavs · 09-09-2002, 08:05 PM

<< Dirk is at least equal to Garnett now. At least. In a year or two, almost everyone will say that Dirk has the advantage.

T-Mac is great, top 7 for sure, but overrated. He has carried his team, but he's in the Leastern Conference.

I say Dirk is #4 right now behind Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. And it kills me to put Kobe on there, but you have to. Know why? Watching that loss to Argentina, watching Paul Pierce pathetically attempt to take over the game, I realized that if Kobe was on that team, that he would have carried them to victory. He would have. No doubt. He's not Jordan -- he could not strap a team on his back and beat the '93 Suns, or the '97 Jazz, or the Pacers or Knicks or all those teams Jordan whupped up on. BUT -- even tho' he is a li'l ol' bitch, and I don't like him one bit, Kobe would have carried Team USA past Argentina, Spain, Yugo, whoever.

That's something no one other than Duncan or Shaq could do.

So, I say you have Duncan and Shaq in one tier.

Kobe in another one.

Dirk at the top of a tier that includes T-Mac, Webber, and Garnett. Dirk and T-Mac ahead of Webber and Garnett for their abilities to carry a team offensively, and offensive versatility.

And maybe you have a Jason Kidd just below them.. 3 months ago I woulda said Pierce, but he needs to show more now. He showed his Eastern-ness in the WC's. As did Baron Davis and 'Dre Miller.. both of whom played like someone's girlfriend in Junior High playing horse in the driveway afterschool one day. But that's a whole different thread... >>

I see Ryylan ur post is just stating and ur just going by what u saw in the World Games. No one played good in the World Games not Dirk nor Gasol or anyone on the US. Divacs had a bad game yesterday matter of fact. I gotta disagree and I think its unfair to judge players on whath conference they play in. TMAC isnt overrated u gotta watch him play and to see he is the future of the NBA. Like I said its hard for me to ptu Dirk in front of Garnett just because he can score. Garnett can do it all and hit the 3 every once in a while. Webber I dont know Webber does some things better than Dirk and Dirk does things better than him. One thing is there defense they both seem to fall on.

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 08:06 PM

I think using the World Games is useless, for the simple fact that the teams were alot different. And the game is alot different.

What are you basing your rankings on Rhylan? All the guys that get paid to talk sports don't have in the top 10, but you have him at 4?

dude1394 · 09-09-2002, 08:10 PM

I'll take the tendex rankings over mike kahn..

www.realgm.com
Duncan - 1
Shaq - 2
Garnett - 3
Webber - 4
McGrady - 5
Dirk - 6
Payton - 7
Brand - 8
Andre Miller - 9
Pierce - 10
Kobe - 11
Nash - 26
Finley - 37
Nick - 45
Lafrenz - 58
Griffin - 158
Najera - 165
AJ - 167
Bradley - 251
TAW - 275
Wang - 301
Esch - 344

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 08:19 PM

Yep Dude, Kobe Bryant is really 11th. Whoever does those ratings for realgm should be fired immediately! Kidd is also not in the top 10, that has to be most ridiculous ratings I have ever seen.

Rhylan · 09-09-2002, 08:31 PM

I based my rankings on the vast knowledge and world-class analytical skills that I possess. Because, Fin4MVP, aka so on and so forth, I SHOULD get paid to talk sports.

The tendex is too dependent on numbers, IMO. I'd also never put Kobe or Kidd that low. But it's all opinion.

I think performance at the World Games is a good judge of competitive fire, leadership, and winning spirit. Which factors in to how I rank dudes.

FFM -- I think Dirk played pretty damn good for most of the WC's.. and I still like Pierce, I just have a lower opinion of him now. He dogged it out there. The point I wanted to make is that Kobe, drama queen and all, would have played his ass off to a win, even if his motivations would have probably been "everyone come watch me save the USA."

I like T-Mac, I just think he's overrated. You HAVE to agree that the East sucks, top to bottom. They just have all the marquee guards, so everyone thinks they're better than they really are, because guards for the most part play the pretty game.

FilthyFinMavs · 09-09-2002, 08:37 PM

<< I based my rankings on the vast knowledge and world-class analytical skills that I possess. Because, Fin4MVP, aka so on and so forth, I SHOULD get paid to talk sports.

The tendex is too dependent on numbers, IMO. I'd also never put Kobe or Kidd that low. But it's all opinion.

I think performance at the World Games is a good judge of competitive fire, leadership, and winning spirit. Which factors in to how I rank dudes.

FFM -- I think Dirk played pretty damn good for most of the WC's.. and I still like Pierce, I just have a lower opinion of him now. He dogged it out there. The point I wanted to make is that Kobe, drama queen and all, would have played his ass off to a win, even if his motivations would have probably been "everyone come watch me save the USA."

I like T-Mac, I just think he's overrated. You HAVE to agree that the East sucks, top to bottom. They just have all the marquee guards, so everyone thinks they're better than they really are, because guards for the most part play the pretty game. >>

I agree iwth u except for the part about Kobe playing his ass off. He didnt even particpate in the thing so I dont know what Kobe would have done. I must admit im a Pierce fan but I was pissed watchin him throw treys up when we had a chance of winning. Miller I wont evne make a comment about he pretty much showed me what he can do. I was afriad of the clippers at first buw now they still wont be able to hit the jump shot and now even worser.

David · 09-09-2002, 09:00 PM

<< It will be a while, you named the guys who will always be considered better. Those guys did not play, so of course they wasn't named tourny MVP. You also can't compare numbers from the worlds, Dirk has to dominate for his team to win. I think Paul Pierce(seriously) and Michael Finley(yes a little bias) were the best players to play in the games. >>

They had an all tournament team at the worlds and NEITHER Pierce or Fin were on it. Dirk, on the other hand, was MVP of the whole thing. I suspect Fin and Pierce and the rest of the US team ALL had a chance to shine because they were one of many. Dirk was almost a one man show. Some of the Germans had to have stepped up for them to take the bronze.

I was just not impressed with the US team, collectively or individually.

Hakeem may have been the best for a while during Houston's two championships but MJ's shadow was still lurking and he came back.

Fidel · 09-09-2002, 09:09 PM

<< The guys from ESPN that I emailed and asked all put Webber and Garnett over Dirk, right now. I, as a Mavs fan hope he does become better than those guys but everyone except the Mavs fans think he is not on par with those guys yet. He also listed McGrady who is a stud, and I myself put him right there with Kobe Bryant. Shaquille O'Neal and Tim Duncan are the 2 best players in the game, hands down. I have seen rankings on some of the sports websites that don't have Dirk in the top 5(like alot see him as for some reason), or the top 10. If you look at this list from someone who has no reason to put this player ahead of that player, you will get someone elses opinion. Top 50 List >>

<< What are you basing your rankings on Rhylan? All the guys that get paid to talk sports don't have in the top 10, but you have him at 4? >>

<< Yep Dude, Kobe Bryant is really 11th. Whoever does those ratings for realgm should be fired immediately! Kidd is also not in the top 10, that has to be most ridiculous ratings I have ever seen. >>

LOL, if you want to be a good troll you need to do better than that. This is just too easy.

By the way: the tendex ratings aren´t done by a single person. They are based upon a specific formula that takes almost every stat available into account. Same goes for Magicmetric (go and check it out how they rate Dirk and Kobe). You probably confused that with rankings. Rankings are done by one or more sportswriters based upon their opinion. This often leads to totally unreasonable results in the rankings. For a good example of that look up the link you posted above.

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 09:23 PM

Fidel, you're a Clippers fan I see so no need in me even wasting my time commenting on your post. You guys still think that Sterling will keep that team together.

I will however say 1 thing though, I do not care what they base their ratings on but anything that don't have Kidd and Kobe ranked in the top 10 is ridiculous. When most to all the writers opinions are similar I will go with those over a system that has Kidd and Kobe out of the top 10.

Rhylan · 09-09-2002, 09:26 PM

I have to agree that Kobe and Kidd both are Top 10 w/o a doubt -- that's the fallacy of rankings that are completely based on stats. However, rankings that are totally based on stats are not without value. You can learn a lot more from stat-based rankings than you can from some fat guy that sits behind a mic. Like, how to form your own opinion, and how to back it up.

That's why we're here. If we all agreed 100% with the dorks that get paid to write and talk about this stuff, we wouldn't bother talking about it ourselves.

That being said, I wanna get paid to write and talk about this stuff.

Fin4MVP · 09-09-2002, 09:29 PM

I wouldn't mind getting paid to talk about this either, but I doubt people would pay to listen to my opinions.

pepperfletch · 09-09-2002, 10:31 PM

You are right there HA HA, Still say Dirk is 3 guys....just wait and see this season....

Shaq
Duncan
Dirk
I can think of plenty of guys here....4-10

Now as far who is the best player to HELP his team...not what he can do indivigually....but the effect he has on the team winning....

Shaq Count the rings
Duncan Take him out of Spurs......dumpsville
Kidd Who else can turn a team around like Jason?
Garnett The ultimate one man team

Kobe does not fit here either, you could put any of the top 10 who play his position and LAKERS still win, it is SHAQ daddy's team and league...for now...
Dirk not the whole reason Mavs have improved either, many others have a role in this TEAM improvement mission they have been on...

Epitome22 · 09-10-2002, 04:05 AM

Incorrect

I think only Tmac would be capable of swapping spots with Kobre and still have the Lakers win rings. And we were all shown what a great leader he was last playoffs. Please don't trot out that Amatuer argument. Kobe is the best guard in the game, he will continue to show that every time the Playoffs roll around.

"Big Man, I need you" --- Kobe Bryant to Shaq

seelenjaeger · 09-10-2002, 05:52 AM

Btw - open another battlefield.

Who was the 2nd best player of the worlds?

And - if we do this ranking, when does Paul Pierce appear?

IMHO in those rankings the following guys have to be mentioned:

Dirk
Pau Gasol
Emanuele Ginobili
Predrag Stojakovic and Dejan Bodiroga
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming (great numbers vs. bad competition - stats pay off)
That Puerto-Rican forward, I keep forgetting his name.
This New Zealand guy ... see Puerto Rican forward.

I´d say Pierce had at least 3 guys before him, maybe 4 at the worlds ...

dude1394 · 09-10-2002, 07:08 AM

<< . Same goes for Magicmetric (go and check it out how they rate Dirk and Kobe). You probably confused that with rankings. Rankings are done by one or more sportswriters based upon their opinion. This often leads to totally unreasonable results in the rankings. For a good example of that look up the link you posted above. >>

I won't argue much with the magicmetric either. I put payton over kidd and although kobe is really dynamic, Shaq is the unstoppable one.

Fin4MVP · 09-10-2002, 08:59 AM

Yes you are right SJ, Pierce had a few guys before him in the Worlds. But when it comes to the NBA none of those guys are in front of him. Atleast they aren't in front of him on any of the rankings I have seen.

Dooby · 09-10-2002, 09:09 AM

<< How soon before the best player in the world is from overseas? >>

Hakeem Olajuwan.

In advance, I can see why he doesn't count because he played USA College Ball. But in the end, Dirk will have played in the USA more than Hakeem.

"And poof, he was gone."

Fidel · 09-10-2002, 09:50 AM

<< Dirk
Pau Gasol
Emanuele Ginobili
Predrag Stojakovic and Dejan Bodiroga
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming (great numbers vs. bad competition - stats pay off)
That Puerto-Rican forward, I keep forgetting his name.
This New Zealand guy ... see Puerto Rican forward. >>

The New Zealand guy is Pero Cameron. The Porto Rican guy Ayuso or Santiago?

I´d scratch Yao Ming off that list.
Instead I´d include Oberto and Noccioni (spl?) of Argentina.
Maybe Jaric and Okulaja too.

Dirk77 · 09-10-2002, 01:59 PM

Fin4MVP, you are pathetic, you try to act like most writers don't consider dirk top 10, yet there is only one, by that idiot Mike Kahn's ho's list is a joke!!!! Most, no, ALL writers consider dirk top 10, not just us you jackass!

Hoopsmeister · 09-10-2002, 02:31 PM

Second team all-NBA. By itself that says the vast majority of sportswriters considered him one of the 10 best players last year.

seelenjaeger · 09-11-2002, 06:23 AM

Just a throw-in: Shaq was raised in Landstuhl/Germany (maybe even born here? - not sure about that) ... does that count?

Drbio · 09-11-2002, 07:00 AM

Shaq was born in San Anotonio I believe.

TheKid · 09-11-2002, 11:31 AM

The greatest players could some day be born over in Europe HOWEVER they will NEVER become the greatest or considered the greatest until they actually play in the United States.

Rod1975 · 09-11-2002, 01:05 PM

After this year Dirk will have proven himself to be even better than before once again. Then I'll be in a much better position to make a case for Dirk being best player in the world. Right now it's too close to call (other than freakboy Shaq).

Oh and Shaq was born in NJ if I'm not mistaken.

Rhylan · 09-11-2002, 01:55 PM

He was born in NJ, but he was a military brat so I think he did spend some time overseas. He went to High School in San Antonio.

Drbio · 09-11-2002, 02:36 PM

yep. Rhylan is correct.