Is Wang worth it, or is it just Marketing that is the concern? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Chef Ed · 09-13-2002, 11:03 AM

As the rumurs continue to flow about the status of Wang Zhi Zhi, now comes the big one, and I would really like to know what the people that post on this site think.

Golden State is rumured to want to give up a #1 pick for the Chinaman.
They had the worst record in the NBA last year at 21-61. That netted them the 3rd pick in the draft(Mike Dunleavy). So the question. Is he worth that? Will he improve the team so much that it makes that big of an impact? I agree that because of the attendance aspect of all of this, and the fact that Wang could generate a lot of money for Golden State it may be worth it from a money aspect, but sorry, you just can't convince me that he is going to make that big of an impact as far as the standings. They want to give up one of the top 3-5 picks in the draft for someone that is as un-polished as Wang? I just don't get it...

madape · 09-13-2002, 11:22 AM

Teams have been putting lottery protection on draft picks for years.

pepperfletch · 09-13-2002, 12:00 PM

Chef..it is MONEY..Wang could mean a ton of it in the right locale...

miles berg · 09-13-2002, 12:58 PM

Wang has potential All-Star written all over him. Great shot, great ball fakes, solid back to the basket game, decent passer, and improving shot blocker. The only thing wrong with him is poor rebounding at times. But he can overcome that easily with work.

I see him as a potential 23/10/3 bpg.

Usually Lurkin · 09-13-2002, 01:06 PM

. . and defense, Miles.

I watched him actually back away a couple of times when people drove at him last year. Right now, he's still only got 'potential' written all over him. Possibly very high potential, but without catching consistent defense from other teams, without showing an ability to defend, without showing consistency over many minutes (he hasn't gotten many minutes), he remains largely unknown.

madape · 09-13-2002, 01:20 PM

Oh God please kill me! I thought a jump from scrub to starter was a stretch... but All-Star?!? Get the fuck out of here. He's barely capable of playing the NBA. What the hell has he ever showed you to make you think he's an all-star?

"The ONLY thing wrong with him is that he doesn't rebound well" Jesus Christ! He sucks in so many aspects of the game it's ridiculous. Wang may be the most over-rated, over-hyped athlete of the last 100 years. He's seven foot, but seven foot doesn't mean shit if you can't move. He's slow. His lateral quickness is Muresan-Like. He can't even think about guardig perimeter players. He's even too slow to guard most NBA power forwards and centers. We all know he's not strong enough to ever be able to guard anyone in the low block. Shit plus shit equals shit... and defensively that's what Wang is and will always be.

Offensively, he's got a decent outside shot but not much else. Again, he's too slow to take anyone off the dribble and not strong enough or good enough in the post to play with his back to the basket. You can talk all day about ball fakes and passing ability (which is crap, he doesn't pass... ever), but the bottom line is that the only chance he'll ever have to score in the NBA is from the perimeter.

That being said, he is kind of unique in that he's a seven-foot three point specialist. But really, who the hell cares? Without the ability to take someone to the hole or post anyone up, his height is pretty much useless. Hubert Davis can park his ass on the three point line and wait for the dish out just as well as Wang... only Davis can bring the ball up the court and guard someone on defense.

I don't understand why the world is so enamored with this guy. The more and more I hear fools praise the greatness of Wang Zhi Zhi, the more I want to see him leave.

Dooby · 09-13-2002, 01:28 PM

<< Wang has potential All-Star written all over him. Great shot, great ball fakes, solid back to the basket game, decent passer, and improving shot blocker. The only thing wrong with him is poor rebounding at times. But he can overcome that easily with work.

I see him as a potential 23/10/3 bpg. >>

Back from lurking for a minute.

Let's not forget that Nobel Prize he won in 1903 for discovering radioactivity. Oh, wait. That was Marie and Pierre Curie. So what has Wang accomplished?

Look, I want to be nice and respectful, but there is a limit. There is nothing in Wang's history to suggest that he is capable of this. If you gave him 30 minutes a night, he might give you 20 points (I stess "might" because the stats say otherwise), but he'll give up 40. This has to stop.

To rehash my position on Wang:

Wang has scored 332 points in the NBA. By my calculation, that means he has scored for 1 point for each 3,153 words written about him on these boards.

In 2001, Wang played in 5 games and averaged 7.6 minutes and 4.8 points per game. In 2002, Wang played in 55 games and averaged 10.9 minutes per game and 5.6 points per game. An increase of more than 50% in minutes, but points increased less than a 20%. That doesn't show me anything. And no, the stats don't show significant improvement from game to game.

I don't knock Wang; I knock the constant overvaluing of what Wang is today and the overvaluing of his potential.

In the best-case scenario, and I mean THE BEST CASE SCENARIO, Wang develops into a solid role-player off the bench. He will never ever become a superstar. He certainly is not one now. And he is not worth all this trouble or all the constant worrying that I hear from some of you people.

To quote Kayser Soze: "And like that... he's gone."

aexchange · 09-13-2002, 01:39 PM

<< I don't understand why the world is so enamored with this guy. The more and more I hear fools praise the greatness of Wang Zhi Zhi, the more I want to see him leave. >>

As bad as Zhi Zhi is, he will never be worse than Bradley.

And thats the bottom line, because Stone Cold said so. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

aexchange · 09-13-2002, 01:51 PM

<< "The ONLY thing wrong with him is that he doesn't rebound well" Jesus Christ! He sucks in so many aspects of the game it's ridiculous. Wang may be the most over-rated, over-hyped athlete of the last 100 years. He's seven foot, but seven foot doesn't mean shit if you can't move. He's slow. His lateral quickness is Muresan-Like. He can't even think about guardig perimeter players. He's even too slow to guard most NBA power forwards and centers. We all know he's not strong enough to ever be able to guard anyone in the low block. Shit plus shit equals shit... and defensively that's what Wang is and will always be.

Offensively, he's got a decent outside shot but not much else. Again, he's too slow to take anyone off the dribble and not strong enough or good enough in the post to play with his back to the basket. You can talk all day about ball fakes and passing ability (which is crap, he doesn't pass... ever), but the bottom line is that the only chance he'll ever have to score in the NBA is from the perimeter.
>>

So here are your criticisms.

He cant guard perimeter players. Duh, he's a power forward/center. Beyond Kenyon Martin, I dont think you could find a 4 in the league who could guard a 2.

He's too slow? He's no worse than LaFrentz in foot speed, and definately faster than Bradley and Esch, who would both be lucky to beat a jackass in a foot race.

He's not strong enough. Possibly, but from the summer league footage I saw he was in damn good shape, and was banging in the blocks. Give him a summer of weight training in the states, before we can come to an adequate conclusion.

We must not be talking about the same Wang Zhi Zhi because I saw more him more than once take his man off the dribble, spin and shoot a nice turnaround jumper. He has a nice up and under, a nice turn around, the 3 pt shot, the nice mid range game, a decent low post game that he hasnt been able to flash. LaFrentz also has a decent low post game, but Nellie never plays him down there, because he wants to stretch defenses. Just because he doesnt play in the post, doesnt mean he isnt capable of doing so.

I think Miles may be stretching things a bit. Wang will never be a stud shot blocker, he'll be lucky to avg 1-2 over a season. But I think he is capable of 15pts and 9rbs a game if given the minutes. Potentially he could do more but that all depends on his development.

aexchange · 09-13-2002, 01:53 PM

<< To rehash my position on Wang:

In 2001, Wang played in 5 games and averaged 7.6 minutes and 4.8 points per game. In 2002, Wang played in 55 games and averaged 10.9 minutes per game and 5.6 points per game. An increase of more than 50% in minutes, but points increased less than a 20%. That doesn't show me anything. And no, the stats don't show significant improvement from game to game.

I don't knock Wang; I knock the constant overvaluing of what Wang is today and the overvaluing of his potential.
>>

I think your statistics are a bit skewed. I think he would have had a higher than 20% increase in his stats had the NVE and LaFrentz trade not happened. I think if you go back and research, you'll see his pts dramatically decrease after their arrival.

madape · 09-13-2002, 02:42 PM

aex - I don't think you fully understood my statement "shit plus shit equals shit". If you can't guard small forwards because you are too slow, and you can't guard power forwards and centers because you are too weak, then you can't guard anyone. "shit" plus "shit" equals "shit". Agreed, Raef, Esch and Bradley can't guard small forwards ("shit&quot

. But each fares pretty well defensively in the post ("not shit&quot

. "Shit" plus "not shit" equals "not shit". Wang is just "shit".

And yes, I do remember Wang trying to take people off the dribble. Most of his attempts either led to him dribbling the ball into the opponents hands, or getting his shot shoved back into his face.

miles berg · 09-13-2002, 04:07 PM

Everyone said Steve Nash was a bust.
Everyone said the Mavs messed up with Dirk.
Now Everyone is saying Wang is no good.

Geez. Give him time. He has never even had a training camp with the Mavs, let alone consistent PT. Everytime he gets on the court he has to act like he has to impress the Nelson's to get more PT. How do you perform like that? Answer that.

While Nellie wants to parade out has beens like Danny Manning, Shawn Bradley (never was), and Johnny Newman the Mavs organization would be much better off by shortening the rotation and giving Wang and Najera all of their minutes plus the minutes they already get.

Wang is so much more talented than most of the big men in the NBA. He is just RAW. I would like to see him get 25 mpg and be able to get into a flow and be an actual contributor.

Nellie could turn this guy into an All-Star. I know those are big words, but the potential is obviously there. He is better right now that when Dirk first got here and they have very similiar tendencies. Let him develop with the Mavericks and he will eventually be a major player.

Drbio · 09-13-2002, 04:14 PM

I must have missed that lesson in math class....lol...

I happen to think Wang is a year or so away from being a very good player. He just needs some camps and experience. Is he there now? No.

madape · 09-13-2002, 04:25 PM

I've got another school lesson for you Dr.Bio.. lets see how well you remember analogies from the SATs.

Wang :: Dirk

A) Peanut Butter : Jelly
B) Sun : Moon
C) Hockey : Stick
D) Shit : Not Shit

Remember, points are deducted for wrong answers.

Chef Ed · 09-13-2002, 04:36 PM

I would love to add to this, but you have spoken, and it is appreciated. Unfortunatly none of you answered the question. If you are Golden State do you give a #1`(lotterypick)for him? Is he worth it? From the post above I guess your answer is no, but because of his marketing value, maybe.

If Dallas gets a lottery pick for this guy, look for Hershal Walker comparisons to linger for years.....I hope they do send him to Golden State, and I hope he nets us a #1. It would be a huge feather in Nelsons cap along with Dirk.........

FilthyFinMavs · 09-13-2002, 04:43 PM

I think mavs fans are overvauling him also. I mean I thought the only guy we could trade Wang for was Olajuwon trade soemoen broguth a while go. I too think Wang has the ability to become a nice player but for soem reason I just see him being a Kukoc type player. Wang has the offesnive tools to become a All Star but his defense wont get him the chance to play many minutes therefore not all star stats. But hey the same could have been said to Dirk a couple years back and im sure people were saying it and look how he has faired.

FilthyFinMavs · 09-13-2002, 04:48 PM

Would I give up a number 1 on him? It depends if I think Golden state has the chance of being a playoff team in the East. No question I do it if im Mavs beign that he obvioulsy dosent watn to play for Mavs and its beter to get something then nothing for him. If Im Golden State I would probaly do it being that the only position they are really in need of is pg and I think they feel comfortable with Arenas there.

Rhylan · 09-13-2002, 05:58 PM

Madape, wouldn't shit plus not shit equal half shit?

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

David · 09-13-2002, 06:52 PM

I think Wang is a player. If I was the Golden State GM I would give up a #1 pick for him and protect it up to top 5.

Wang is:
7 feet tall.
He has good foot work.
He's agile.
He can handle the ball fairly well for a big guy.
He can shoot three pointers better than just about anyone on the Mavs.
He's relatively inexpensive.
He's better than Bradley and Esch (big deal)
He has the athletic ability and intelligence to learn, and do, everything he needs to in the game of basketball.

The only downside I see is the situation with his government.

Drbio · 09-13-2002, 08:06 PM

(d)

great stuff madape....

ThunderNYC · 09-14-2002, 10:59 PM

<< [i]Wang is just "shit".[/q

How is Wang shit just because you don't agree with someone else's opinion on him? You f**king asshole!

Rhylan · 09-14-2002, 11:05 PM

Thunder, please turn on your PMs so that I can explain the health risks of calling people assholes on your first day on the site. Thanks. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Epitome22 · 09-16-2002, 02:58 PM

My goodness, I must have been watching a different player named Wang last year. The Wang I saw was slow, not particularly athletic, a bad defender and had a limited offensive game. I can't comment on his back to the basket game because in all his 50+ games last year he showed me no inclination that he even had one. Ocassionally when he was stuck in a situation where he was close to the baslet I saw what I might have once described as flashes of brilliance but I think that has more to do with the fact I was surprised to see him able to do anything besides wind up for one of his long and unpredictable 3 point shots. He has fooled alot of people with his head fakes(Re: Kevin Garnett) but again I think that has more to do with people being surprised at him not going fully thru with his normal wind up and let the bomb go routine. I haven't seen any inclination that has is much of a passer since he rarely passes and usually only holds the ball in his hands long enough to shot put it at the basket. And hsi one thing he is noted for, the 3 point shot, is at best, unpredictable. For one thing, he is only useful in those situations as a spot shooter because it takes him 10 seconds to hurl his rainbow at the basket, and even in situations where you can get him isolated with no hands in hbis face, his shot is as likely to spring off the rim 5 feet in the air as it is to sink. There are many players, even other 7 footers with a quicker and more consistent 3 point shot.

In short, I can't see keeping Wang on the team for anything other than a Mascot and a nice PR move if keeping ahold of him requires any amount of diffuculty on part of the franchise whatsoever, and he's already proved to be more trouble than 98% of the players in the league.

David · 09-16-2002, 05:27 PM

Link to Patricia's website stats

Here's a link to some stats for the season that shows Wang hit 41.4% of his threes, better than everyone but Nash. Better than Dirk's 39% and and Raef's 30%.

It may be that Nelson used Wang PRIMARILY as a 3 point specialist and didn't use him much as anything else. I think that's why we didn't see Wang's complete game. Since Wang missed training camp two years in a row, it was hard to integrate him into the offense.

#1MavsFan · 09-16-2002, 05:30 PM

But he didnt shoot it as much as raef and dirk.

southern_sweets · 09-16-2002, 05:47 PM

Wow! This got exciting fast.
Anyway, I agree with the fact that Wang is just more trouble than he's worth. I guess I just don't get that excited about the guy.

But, madape what the f***?...

<< Oh God please kill me! Get the fuck out of here. He's barely capable of playing the NBA. What the hell has he ever showed you to make you think he's an all-star?

Jesus Christ! He sucks in so many aspects of the game it's ridiculous. He's seven foot, but seven foot doesn't mean shit if you can't move. Shit plus shit equals shit... and defensively that's what Wang is and will always be.

>>

Go get a bar of soap!!!

breal · 09-16-2002, 06:13 PM

Geez Lu-F**ing Wease....
First of all, anyone who can't see the tremendous potential in Wang either doesn't know basketball, or is just plain blind. There's no point in debating with those who cannot appreciate his talents (albeit somewhat raw) by now. The guy does have all-star potential, though it will not be realized for at least a couple years. That said, it's like a relationship that has past a certain threshold, that has gone beyond the point of no return. There has been too much tension with the Wang situation; Dallas just needs to get what they can for Wang, and a 1st round pick should suffice.

that said, a few years from now I'm sure the nelsons will have wished something could have been worked out, and depending on how much success the team has achieved at that time, they'll likely be kicking themselves.
<u>Text</u>

Rhylan · 09-16-2002, 06:46 PM

lol sweets... madape apparently isn't the only person around here in need of some soap... but you have to admit that not many times has someone successfully made an analogy between poop and ballplayers -- only the Ape. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

breal, if there's no point in debating, then why debate?

I thin Wang doesn't have all-star potential.. realize that potential and Wang won't be going together for much longer. He is going on 26 years old, and we all know how a 26 year old with little more than potential isn't worth wasting a second round draft pick on these days (see Predrag Savovic of Hawaii).

However, I do think that Wang could very easily become someone's 7th or 8th guy with some PT and some Chinese leniency. It will be interesting to see how much this summer helped him, and I hope he gets the shot with the Mavs. However, if he doesn't, I think that clearly, now is the peak of his value as far as getting something for him. Because after another year, he will basically be a known quantity and no one will speak of a soon-to-be-27-year-old in terms of potential this time next year.

SO.. if he's gonna blossom, let's let him blossom here... but if he's not, or he's not going to get the opportunity here, I wouldn't cry if he's traded.

pepperfletch · 09-16-2002, 07:17 PM

Keep him this year and let him play. If nothing develops fine...BUT I would bet the house he WILL develop...

There is a rumor on Hoopsworld (they are unbelievable with all their rumors) that Wang may accept the Mavs qualifying offer of 800K for one year and thus become an unresticted Free agent next. They hint he wants to try and have the Mavs just walk away making him unrestricted right now. If that is the case I believe that the MAVS will NOT just walk away, they will sign him at 800 K.
I believe they could not trade him under this senario, is that correct???? Who out there knows?

ALso we all know what seems to happen with players playing out there contract...could be BIG THINGS FOR MAVS...lets hope.

miles berg · 09-17-2002, 03:47 AM

<< Unfortunatly none of you answered the question. If you are Golden State do you give a #1`(lotterypick)for him? Is he worth it? >>

Well, to Golden State I guess. The odds of them getting the #1 pick are slim and there is a chance that LeBron James might not even want to play for them. What if he pulls a Kobe and only wants to play for certain teams?

Wang ZhiZhi would be worth a lottery pick because other than LeBron the draft will probably be all foreigners again. Wang will be in his 3rd year and will be more advanced. He obviously has chemistry with the Warriors by looking at their Summer Team. With Jason Richardson, Jamison, and Dunleavy, they are just basically lacking a PG and a C. Wang could be that C.

Also, like it has been mentioned, Wang brings in the fans out there. More than any lottery pick, possibly even LeBron James, will. Wang can easily give them 14 pts and 8 boards a night and will fill the stands and be a solid complimentary piece to the puzzle.

And like Fisher said, the Mavs will get all the pleasure of the lottery without the pain of the season leading into a lottery pick. And even if we end up with only the 5th pick, we have so much talent that we could possibly trade up (say #5, LaFrentz, 2 Future #1's) and get LeBron James.

I am all about the possibility of teaming LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, and Rashard Lewis together for over a decade. That would allow us to have a "Big 3" to go with right now and a future "Big 3" with far more talent to build on. And they would be learning with us the whole way.

Almost too good to be true if you ask me. Dallas should do the deal and laugh. Golden State should do the deal and count the money that Wang ZhiZhi will start making them.

It is a win-win situation for both teams.

Stressboy91 · 09-17-2002, 08:45 AM

There are some really good players that will show up in next years draft. After James there is Kendrick Perkins from Beaumont Ozen who if he has grown a couple of inches will be that next dominant center. After that you never know what underclassmen will come out and someone like Chris Bosh would be a steal at 5-10 and might go at 2-3. If you get a non-protected pick from GS then you do the deal otherwise, you ask for Welsch and a protected pick.