Curious what Ron Paul says about the Georgian' invasion?

[dude1394]

F'em? Or something like that? Just curious...might be the right answer, I'd like to see the europeans stand on their own two feet. You wanted it, you got it. Unfortunately it appears a pro-western guvment will have to pay for the europeans support.

Wow...went to see if I could find some Ron Paul comments and ran across a website.

These dudes are nuttier than fruitcakes.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=149556&page=2

[Arne]

Originally Posted by dude1394

F'em? Or something like that? Just curious...might be the right answer, I'd like to see the europeans stand on their own two feet. You wanted it, you got it. Unfortunately it appears a pro-western guvment will have to pay for the europeans support.

He will say stay out of it. And if you want to engage in yet another war follow the law and let congress declare war.

You know, even I would know what kind of approach he would recommend, since he's a politician who has uncompromised principles. Ofcourse, you don't know those type of politicians, since you'll vote for whatever mess the Reps offer.

Regarding the Foreign Policy of Ron Paul:

http://www.amazon.de/Foreign-Policy-...8365544&sr=8-1

[dude1394]

Ask an honest question get a political attack. Maybe I deserved it since I linked to a Ronpaul blogsite.

As I stated. F'em might be the right answer here.

[alexamenos]

And what course of action do you expect from George Bush and friends on this matter?

Something like "absolutely nothing save a little posturing" -- I think that's almost certainly the reaction we can expect.

Since GWB isn't going to stand up for liberty and democracy and all that, should we all start drinking vodka and wearing lot's of red and reading marx and whatnot?

[Arne]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Ask an honest question get a political attack. Maybe I deserved it since I linked to a Ronpaul blogsite.

Okay, I owe you an apology then. - I was mislead by the title of the thread which suggested that the answer was already in it. Sorry, anyways.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Arne

Okay, I owe you an apology then. - I was mislead by the title of the thread which suggested that the answer was already in it. Sorry, anyways.

I also will apologize...i''m partisan enough around here not to get my panties in a wad.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

And what course of action do you expect from George Bush and friends on this matter?

Something like "absolutely nothing save a little posturing" -- I think that's almost certainly the reaction we can expect.

Since GWB isn't going to stand up for liberty and democracy and all that, should we all start drinking vodka and wearing lot's of red and reading marx and whatnot?

Hmm...It is curious to see dubya attacked for not standing up for liberty and democracy and all that, sinces he's risked his presidency, party and just about everything else for just that.

I'm not crazy about his luke-warm stance either to be honest, I like Mac's position more than any of them really. I like that he sided with Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and the new europeans who have first hand experience with russian "hospitality".

Here is the latest from the McCain campaign:

This afternoon I spoke, for the second time since the crisis began, with Georgian President Saakashvili. It is clear the situation is dire. Russian aggression against Georgia continues, with attacks occurring far beyond the Georgian region of South Ossetia. As casualties continue to mount, the international community must do all it can to avert further escalations. Tensions and hostilities between Georgians and Ossetians are in no way justification for Russian troops crossing an internationally recognized border. I again call on the Government of Russia to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from the territory of Georgia.

Given this threat to Euro-Atlantic security, I am pleased to see the United States, the European Union, and NATO acting together by sending a delegation to the region, in an effort to broker a cease fire. This is an important first step.

The United Nations has been prevented from taking any meaningful action by Russian objections. In view of this, I welcome the statements of democratic nations defending the sovereignty of Georgia and condemning Russian actions.

I strongly support the declaration issued by the Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and their commitment that 'aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers.'

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

And what course of action do you expect from George Bush and friends on this matter?

Something like "absolutely nothing save a little posturing" -- I think that's almost certainly the reaction we can expect.

Since GWB isn't going to stand up for liberty and democracy and all that, should we all start drinking vodka and wearing lot's of red and reading marx and whatnot?

"absolutely nothing save a little posturing" is probably exactly right. But I find it interesting that this quote was given in a thread asking what Ron Paul says about it, because based on Arne's response and your response, it sounds like both GW and Ron Paul would do the same. Except for the posturing, of course.

[jefelump]

The US response, according to the UK Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rgia-grow.html

International opinion hardened against Russia, which has been roundly accused of a "disproportionate reaction" to Georgia's move into South Ossetia last week. Jim Jeffrey, the US's deputy National Security Advisor, told reporters: "We have made it clear to the Russians that if the disproportionate and dangerous escalation on the Russian side continues, that this will have a significant long-term impact on US-Russian relations."

But American diplomats conceded that the US had few options and ruled out military intervention on behalf of Georgia. "We have no good options," a US National Security Council official told The Daily Telegraph. "We need Russia's co-operation over Iran and derailing that over a localised conflict in Georgia makes no sense. We just have to hope that diplomacy prevails. The next necessary step is for Russia to respond positively to Georgia's ceasefire declaration."

So alexamenos was right.... nothing but political posturing.

[DirkFTW]

Former Candidate Fred Thompson issued a statement today regarding the conflict between Russia and Georgia:
(The sounds in the background are from the naval ship from which Mr. Thompson spoke. He joined the vessel out in open sea in order to monitor and contain Russia's military presence during this escalation. The distance from shore contributed to the technical difficulties which severed the live audio and video feeds.)

This business will get out of control! It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it!

Listen to Audio.
Video minus audio.

Mr. Thompson also implored Washington to figure out Vladimir Putin's plan because Russians don't even take dumps without a plan.

[rabbitproof]

We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians
As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: “Why won’t America and Nato help us? If they won’t help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?”

A similar sense of betrayal coursed through the conversations of many Georgians here yesterday as their troops retreated under shellfire and the Russian Army pressed forward to take full control of South Ossetia.

---

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4500362.ece

---

I honestly am not sure what the right course of action is here.

[Flacolaco]

There are two (additional) large carrier groups (Theodore Roosevelt, and Ronald Reagan) heading towards the Persian Gulf right now.

Are they going because Georgia is just a stones throw away?
Are they going to blockade Iran?
Are they going to keep the Hormuz strait open?

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There are two (additional) large carrier groups (Theodore Roosevelt, and Ronald Reagan) heading towards the Persian Gulf right now.

Are they going because Georgia is just a stones throw away?
Are they going to blockade Iran?
Are they going to keep the Hormuz strait open?

My guess is it's a little of "all of the above".... although all I hear from the administration is talk about US/Russian relations being affected, and diplomacy.

[rabbitproof]

This just popped to me a minute ago. Do you guys think we set a modern precedent with Iraq? Why did Russia allude to us and Iraq with this conflict?

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

This just popped to me a minute ago. Do you guys think we set a modern precedent with Iraq? Why did Russia allude to us and Iraq with this conflict?

Russia's excuse for attacking Georgia was because Georgia sent troops to South Ossetia. Russia claimed to be defending their friends, and attacked deep into Georgia as "punishment". It sounds more to me like Iraq 1, where Saddam attacked Kuwait, and we went in to defend Kuwait and kick Saddam out. The difference is that South Ossetia is already part of Georgia. Kuwait was not already part of Iraq. Georgia didn't attack another sovereign country like Saddam did.

And I haven't followed it enough to know that Russia alluded to us and Iraq. What did they (Putin and/or Medvedev) say?

[rabbitproof]

He relates the South Ossetians as Shiites and Georgia as 'Saddam'..

---

"It's a pity that some of our partners, instead of helping, are in fact trying to get in the way," Putin said at a Cabinet meeting. "I mean among other things the United States airlifting Georgia's military contingent from Iraq effectively into the conflict zone."

The U.S. military started flying some 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday after Georgia recalled them. Georgian officials haven't said how many have come back, but a Russian general said eight U.S. military transport planes had already flown home some 800 Georgian troops.

"The scale of their cynicism causes surprise," Putin said. "It's the ability to cast white as black and black as white which is surprising, the ability to cast the aggressor as the victim and blame the victims for the consequences."

Putin remarks also reflected deep anger at Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili.

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."

[dude1394]

Putin is just playing politics back in the US. He knows if he invokes Iraq that any support for the georgians will be blunted. It seems to be working also as the bds folks would allow russia to take over many countries if they thought it would somehow embarress dubya.

You only have to look at dailykos or other leftist sites to see how gleeful they are that an ally of dubya is getting conquered.

The left is a leaky vessel to put much faith in.

[Arne]

Back to the question:

First of all Ron Paul is currently having serious worries in his family life, so that might be a reason he hasn't issued a real comment yet.

Ron Paul's wife in serious condition at hospital


HOUSTON (AP) — The wife of Republican Rep. Ron Paul was in serious but stable condition Monday at a Houston hospital, a spokesman for the congressman said.

Carol Paul was in the critical care unit at an unidentified hospital, spokesman Jesse Benton said in a statement.

Benton would not disclose why Carol Paul was admitted to the hospital Monday, only saying "she has had several abdominal surgeries."

Paul "appreciates the outpouring of concern and good wishes during this difficult time," Benton said.

A Texas congressman from Lake Jackson, Ron Paul was the Libertarian Party nominee for president in 1988 and ran unsuccessfully for the 2008 GOP presidential nomination. His campaign, which was a sensation on the Internet, drew support from Republicans, independents and Democrats.

Link: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...msxVwD92GDH7G2

BUT, I'm once again impressed with Paul's incredible wisdom and foresight. Here he is predicting this "blowback" in 2002:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya6JfFK_lYQ

[rabbitproof]

That's really acute. It's like Putin just watched that video and spat out Ron's prediction verbatim as justification.

Here's McCain on it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/13/mccain-21-century/

Haha.... hypocrite.

[jefelump]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

That's really acute. It's like Putin just watched that video and spat out Ron's prediction verbatim as justification.

Here's McCain on it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/13/mccain-21-century/

Haha.... hypocrite.

"hypocrite" isn't exactly how I would word it. I would say "idiot" instead. Of course countries invade other countries in the 21st century. They always have, and they always will. To believe that no more countries will ever invade other countries is naive at best.

[rabbitproof]

"Idiot" might be more apt to describe someone who doesn't believe in something obvious, be it a scientific fact or a smart strategy.

Someone who does one thing and says someone else shouldn't do it is a hypocrite.

You could call him both. I'm sticking with hypocrite.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

This just popped to me a minute ago. Do you guys think we set a modern precedent with Iraq? Why did Russia allude to us and Iraq with this conflict?

By definition we set a precedent, but nothing that all relates to the matter at hand. In other words, the fact that we deployed our military in Iraq doesn't anywhere near mean that we would also deploy our military in Georgia. In fact, and perhaps somewhat ironically, in reality it means the exact opposite.

See, this whole ordeal really leaves McCain quite between the rock and hard spot. His whole campaign is predicated on how tough he is militarily and how much ass he would kick in battle and how little shit he would take. That's all good and well, and it gets the "troops" fired up when we are talking about Al Queda or Iraq or Afghanistan. We're the big cat with the mouse under our paw. Do we talk with the mouse, like Obama wants to do, or do we rip its head off whole? Those are the lines that are drawn in the sand.

Except, it gets a little tricky once another big cat happens upon the scene. It's easy for the schoolyard bully to beat his chest and rule the roost when there's nothing at risk. But what happens when the Red Bear makes an appearance?

Ask yourself if you really want to go war with Russia. Oh, we loves us some war when it's Iraq and Afghanistan and some Talibans. We gots to be strong on war, fierce in foreign policy. We don't take no shit from nobody. And for that matter, if people are getting killed somewhere, it's our job to teach those for'ners how to behave like real human people. And you can't just talk your way out of this shit. Oh, no. Obama is a pansy-ass appeaser. You need a stone cold, hard-hittin' mofo like John McCain.

You need a guy who will take Russia head on and show their ass who is boss. Obama would never have the nuts to go to war with Russia. As such, he would bend over and invite the rest of the world to take us up the ass. Freakin' hippie.

Screw that, let's go to war, baby. Oh, wait. You said it's Russia? Well...maybe just this once, just this time, we can settle the troops down and talk it out.

Gimme a break. If you want a warmonger for your president, are you prepared to take on Russia because Georgia is having some trouble?

I hope not. But if you do, you better run it by the Chinese first. If you are going to fight World War III, you are going to need them to finance it for you.

[DirkFTW]

^I think this is exactly what the Russians were thinking when they went in. Who's gonna stop them? NATO? The US? Please. It's their playground now and they're looking at the Ukraine next with nukes pointed at Poland.

France gave them a stand-down agreement where the Georgians agreed not to do anything and the Russians got to be part of a peace-keeping force. They then moved their peace-keeping force into the heart of Georgia.

[chumdawg]

Exactly. When Bush (McCain) "strenuously objected" to Russia's movements, Russia said in its best teenage voice: "Ooooh, I'm so scared!"

So what are you getting with McCain, if you think he's the guy who will keep you safe and Obama will cede whatever it takes to appease the Russians (or anyone else who barks loudly enough)?

You're getting a guy who couldn't do anything about Russia even if he wanted to. And God help us, let's hope he doesn't want to.

[DirkFTW]

The media reports I have seen have all agreed that McCain was the only one to condemn the Russians for what they did at the start. Bush (and Obama) was lukewarm and it cost the Georgians. McCain correctly stated that Russia's actions were wholly unacceptable from moment 1. But McCain's a single senator running for POTUS, so he's got little power. As a dress-rehearsal though, I think it shows exactly what we're getting.

For the record, I don't think the Russians are itching for a fight. They're pushing to see what they can get away with and they got away clean on this one. 20+ years of Cold War posturing shows it's basically a big game of chicken, designed to make the other side operate from the mindset of "yikes, what will happen to us if we go to war". Once there, you can get anything you want.

Sidenote: Hawaiians want revolution. Russia to come keep the peace???

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

The media reports I have seen have all agreed that McCain was the only one to condemn the Russians for what they did at the start. Bush (and Obama) was lukewarm and it cost the Georgians. McCain correctly stated that Russia's actions were wholly unacceptable from moment 1. But McCain's a single senator running for POTUS, so he's got little power. As a dress-rehearsal though, I think it shows exactly what we're getting.

For the record, I don't think the Russians are itching for a fight. They're pushing to see what they can get away with and they got away clean on this one. 20+ years of Cold War posturing shows it's basically a big game of chicken, designed to make the other side operate from the mindset of "yikes, what will happen to us if we go to war". Once there, you can get anything you want.

Sidenote: Hawaiians want revolution. Russia to come keep the peace???

I don't think you understand the rhetoric. Yes, we know that McCain, the candidate, came down like the ultrahawk when this happened. That is exactly the corner that McCain the candidate has painted himself into.

[DirkFTW]

Rhetoric? I think we're talking about different things now. I thought you were saying that McCain and Bush both angrily flapped their gums and Russia ignored them. I'm saying that Obama and Bush came out with "play nice" statements and Russia said "okay" and then invaded the rest of Georgia. Then Obama and Bush changed their rhetoric to catch up to what McCain was already saying.

Russia's goal is to reassert itself in the region and weaken NATO. How do we convince them they DON'T want to do that?

This was McCain's proposed solution. He doesn't say "DUKE NUKEM ALL!" like you're afraid of.
"Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory. What is most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces. The consequences of Euro-Atlantic stability and security are grave. The government of Georgia has called for a ceasefire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The U.S. should immediately convene an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to call on Russia to reverse course. The U.S. should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course that it has chosen. I repeat, the government of Georgia has called for a ceasefire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The United States should immediately convene an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council and to call on Russia to reverse course. The U.S. should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course that it has chosen. We should immediately call a meeting of the North Atlantic Council to asses Georgia's security and review measures NATO can take to contribute to stabilizing this very dangerous situation. Finally, the international community needs to establish a truly independent and neutral peacekeeping force in South Ossetia."

That's a rather healthy dose of middle finger as opposed to throwing fists or patting everyone on the head. In fact, it's a whole lot of diplomacy and international peacekeepers. The only language that could be construed as involving military is where he calls on NATO to help stabilize the region.

Was it okay for Russia to invade South Ossetia? I don't think so, but they can argue the precedence was set with Bosnia (not Iraq) where a region wished independence, the government cracked down, and international forces came in to force the country apart. To date, I have not seen them argue this, most likely because Serbia did some God-awful stuff to the minority groups that wanted independence.