01-06-2009, 03:03 PM
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#201
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chumdawg
Mike Miller...Schmike Miller...it doesn't matter. I've been trying to tell you guys. Addition by subtraction is a very real thing, as we have seen. Just get rid of J-Ho. Pretend he's a free agent and let him walk. Take a first-round draft pick and an expiring contract.
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That's one of the major things I see coming with a Josh trade. I believe in the addition by subtraction theory.
Now for what in return, I'd like to be a little more greedy and try to get some more in return.
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01-06-2009, 04:43 PM
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#202
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9
That's one of the major things I see coming with a Josh trade. I believe in the addition by subtraction theory.
Now for what in return, I'd like to be a little more greedy and try to get some more in return.
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If Josh goes, I'd like to see more of a playmaker at the 2/3. A guy who can defend, make an open shot and pass the ball well would be nice. Josh Howard probably won't get you equal value, especially with the way our FO negotiates IMHO.
You know what we need? An energy guy to start the game. There is little energy from our starting unit lately. I really hope GG gets another shot. From what Fish says, he and Singleton are the last ones in the gym these days. What I don't get is that Green isn't a bad player. He has some holes in his game, but being benched like this is too far IMO.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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01-06-2009, 06:26 PM
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#203
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Platinum Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: state of eternal optimism
Posts: 2,846
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We like our team.....
__________________
"Truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it. Ignorance may deride it. Malice may distort it. But there it is." - Winston Churchill
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01-06-2009, 06:27 PM
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#204
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart
If Josh goes, I'd like to see more of a playmaker at the 2/3. A guy who can defend, make an open shot and pass the ball well would be nice. Josh Howard probably won't get you equal value, especially with the way our FO negotiates IMHO.
You know what we need? An energy guy to start the game. There is little energy from our starting unit lately. I really hope GG gets another shot. From what Fish says, he and Singleton are the last ones in the gym these days. What I don't get is that Green isn't a bad player. He has some holes in his game, but being benched like this is too far IMO.
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This is what I really want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9
As for Josh and the player in return. You can label them a SG, a slasher, whatever...the player has to be consistent/efficient. If he's attacking the basket, he has to do it at a great rate and really help the team out. If he's going to be a shooter, he's gotta be able to shoot the lights out from anywhere on the court. Whatever the role is...they just have to be consistent on a nightly basis.
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01-06-2009, 06:52 PM
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#205
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Platinum Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,305
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I'm really curious how other fans around the league view Howard now as a player... after all that horrible news over the summer and his lackluster performances, you have to think he's not in the same class of trading chip he was in a year ago. We probably couldn't get a Redd, Butler, West, for him at this point whereas I think his value used to be that high... if we're planning on trading him shouldn't we try and boost his value more? Give him the ball, let him score back to back 50 point games and let's get a Kaman (that trade would be a steal for us in my opinion, if we could pull that off i'd be ecstatic).
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01-06-2009, 06:59 PM
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#206
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 106
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Josh H. must be traded!
We Mavs. fans know that with this team the Mavs aren't going anywhere. Mark needs to trade J. Howard, Stack, even Diop for another superstar, yes I would try to get Shawn M., or T. Mac.
The Mavs r just an avg. team right now. Let's face it when u struggle to beat teams like the Clippers, Grizzlies, or even the Knicks u know this team isn't a contender at all. Mark C. must fix what didn't need fixing in the first place. He should have never traded Harris for a worn out pt. gd.
Harris was good in all areas, He drove to the basket, took charges, played defense, shot 3 ptr's. He always gave the Mavs energy. I like Kidd, but his best days r behind him.
Mark had a chance to trade Josh H. for Pau Gasol last yr., but the fool listened to a dumb coach who hadn't been coaching but 3 1/2 yrs. Avery didn't want Howard to go, He wanted to trade Harris for Kidd. Avery wanted Howard to be the superstar of the Mavs. He wanted to build around Howard.
Avery now goes on radio shows saying he never wanted that trade to happen, when all along he's the one who pushed for it. Another thing for all u Avery supporters, if he's so good why hasn't any N.B.A. team hired him. Let's c there's been 7, or 8 coaches fired. No owner wants a control freak, or a coach who panics during the playoffs, and one who treats his players like kids. I know I went into different subjects, but unless Mark makes a change a.s.a.p. The Mavs r not going anywhere, and yes they r very boring to watch, especially when Howard is in the line-up. Mavs play better without him!
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01-06-2009, 07:41 PM
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#207
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 296
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Oh no, not you again. Holy crap, this is too much.
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01-06-2009, 09:20 PM
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#208
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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wrong thread
Last edited by fluid.forty.one; 01-06-2009 at 09:21 PM.
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01-06-2009, 09:24 PM
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#209
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mavsgirl4134
Oh no, not you again. Holy crap, this is too much.
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off topic, but I see your location is Cocoa, Florida do you live near Cocoa Beach? I go there for like 3 weeks every summer so just was wondering if you lived near there because I have friends in that area
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01-06-2009, 10:27 PM
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#210
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cocoa, Florida
Posts: 296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basketballgirl25
off topic, but I see your location is Cocoa, Florida do you live near Cocoa Beach? I go there for like 3 weeks every summer so just was wondering if you lived near there because I have friends in that area
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Yep, I sure do, I go there just about everyday. Cocoa is the inland part, near Merritt Island.
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01-07-2009, 12:24 AM
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#211
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Josh Howard:
+ by -
sponsored by -
Last edited by BGMaverick9; 01-07-2009 at 12:31 AM.
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01-07-2009, 01:21 AM
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#212
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Platinum Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,208
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Quote:
If Howard can’t show up, Mavs need to ship him out
DALLAS — Admit it, you showed up at the AAC Tuesday night thinking that maybe the injury-decimated Los Angeles Clippers would be forced to pick five guys out of the crowd in order to field a team, and you just might get a chance to play in your first NBA game.
And, of course, you’d be right there on the floor, looking for a 3, when the game came down to the final minute of play, as seemingly every Mavs game does, no matter who they’re playing.
One thing for sure: You’d at least show up for the fourth quarter, and that’s more than we can say about the Mavericks’ Josh Howard.
Jeez, I hate picking on Josh like that, but there it is.
It wasn’t so long ago that Josh was my favorite Mav to talk to when I showed up at the AAC. I loved his talent and his potential. Now, he sees a guy coming with a notebook or a tape recorder, he scuttles out of the room like a bashful cockroach.
Then again, guess I shouldn’t use any form of the word "roach" when talking about Josh.
In any case, that’s not why I think the Mavs have to start thinking about looking to trade Howard in the best deal they can find.
He doesn’t have to make nice to the media. If Josh wants to blame us for his troubles, no biggie. That’s been done by much bigger stars than him.
What he does need to do is be what coach Rick Carlisle has been insisting he is since before the season began.
He has to be the Mavs’ most important player.
Maybe Howard can be that player in a trade, because he’s almost never been that guy on the court this season.
I’m beginning to believe he never will be.
Yes, I know he may not yet have completely recovered from that ankle sprain earlier in the season.
There are mixed messages on that front, depending on who’s asked.
"I hope not," Carlisle said when asked if the ankle was still hampering Howard.
"It appears to be doing well."
Owner Mark Cuban isn’t so sure.
"He looks like he’s favoring it," Cuban said, dripping sweat onto my notebook during his pregame stair-stepper ritual.
OK, that’s about as clear as mud.
What is crystal clear is that Howard hasn’t been the same player since the injury.
I wish I could believe that was the reason, and that he’s not just in another of his disinterested funks.
In the 11 starts he’s made since coming back from the ankle sprain, Howard has scored 12 or fewer points three times, including his 12-point effort Sunday in the loss to Memphis.
More telling for a player of Howard’s talent is the fact that he had two or fewer rebounds seven times in those 11 games.
Carlisle says Howard’s shrinking numbers are more a product of inconsistent minutes rather than inconsistent play.
"His minutes haven’t been the same because he’s worked back into it somewhat gradually," Carlisle said before the Mavs had to stage a desperate, late fourth-quarter rally to edge the hapless Clippers 107-102 (guess they didn’t need you after all). "I wouldn’t put a lot of weight on that."
That’s consistent with the organization’s steady support for Howard throughout a disastrous 2008, when he admitted smoking dope during a local radio interview and then showed up on YouTube disrespecting the national anthem.
His heartfelt apology aside when this season began, Howard, by distancing himself at every opportunity, now seems to blame the media for those public relations disasters, rather than the man he sees in the mirror every day.
"He just doesn’t trust you guys," Cuban said.
Understandable.
We were the brutes who pointed out that in both instances Howard had critically impaled himself on his own tongue.
Shame on us.
Cuban said Howard is simply doing what he was told to do by the team, to wit, "You’re better off, when you don’t know what to say, [to] say nothing."
Like I said earlier, it’s not Howard’s relationship with the media that’s the most critical issue here. It’s whether Josh can be what Carlisle says he is and believes he needs to be for the Mavericks to have a chance to again be an elite team and get past the first round of the playoffs.
Carlisle still believes it, or says he does.
"Same things I said back then," he said when asked why he thinks Howard is still the Mavs’ most important — but not necessarily best — player.
Those reasons: Maybe the team’s best perimeter defender, good rebounder, the ability to score inside and outside.
If only Howard would do those things consistently.
Instead, he’s as liable to disappear when the Mavs need him most — like in the fourth quarter — as he is to show up with 29 points and nine rebounds, as he did on Dec. 28 in LA, when Dirk Nowitzki was sitting out a one-game suspension.
That’s the Josh Howard that the Mavs need every night. That guy is critical to the Mavs’ success this season. In conjunction with what Nowitzki and Jason Terry bring offensively, that Josh might well be the team’s most important player.
But if he continues to be an enigma, if the Mavs never know from one night to the next which Josh is going to walk out on the floor, maybe they’re better off hoping he can juice his numbers a bit, and then look to deal him for a player who may be a little less talented, but a lot more consistent.
Tuesday night was fairly typical, for both the inconsistent Mavs and for Howard.
They let the Clippers, who were missing three starters and dressed just eight players, hang around until the Mavs had to finish the game with an 11-1 run to pull it out.
Howard finished with 22 points and six rebounds. He had two of those points and one of those rebounds in the fourth quarter.
If that’s what the Mavs really expect from the most important player on the team, they’re in more trouble than most of us thought.
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http://www.star-telegram.com/287/story/1127494.html
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01-07-2009, 08:44 AM
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#213
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Golden Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,062
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So which is better? JHo for TMac or JHo for Bargs/Parker?
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01-07-2009, 09:51 AM
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#214
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Just outside the Metroplex
Posts: 5,539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwitzki
So which is better? JHo for TMac or JHo for Bargs/Parker?
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Tmac has the chance for the bigger return, IMO. Unless Bargs becomes another Dirk. Parker is already 33 and is a short term fix.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Gerald Ford
"Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Capt. Bob "Wolf" Johnson
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01-07-2009, 10:39 AM
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#215
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: uranus
Posts: 13,577
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Why would Houston trade Tmac for JHO?
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01-08-2009, 06:14 PM
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#216
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,501
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Remember when I used to always say we ought to trade Josh for Gerald Wallace or Caron Butler? Then someone would say " But that's a lateral move", is it still "Lateral" now? LOL
__________________
Monta Ellis is an All-Star.
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01-08-2009, 06:15 PM
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#217
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Laredo
Posts: 7,995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMC0007
Why would Houston trade Tmac for JHO?
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Why would there be a trade within the division to begin with?
__________________
"Dirk Nowitzki is now a household name in every locker room in this world.
You say it in Brazil, you say Dirk, they know Nowitzki. You say it in China,
they know Nowitzki. Kobe, Michael, DIRK." - Jeff Van Gundy
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01-08-2009, 07:12 PM
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#218
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan
Remember when I used to always say we ought to trade Josh for Gerald Wallace or Caron Butler? Then someone would say " But that's a lateral move", is it still "Lateral" now? LOL
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For Butler, it's not even a case of the talent...Butler is the better player anyways. That's what the point was with him, and that made it very unlikely that he was available for Howard.
Wallace is perceived as a lateral move, but I think he brings more intangibles that make him better than Josh. So the perception is there, but I think it's an upgrade even more than the + by - aspect of it.
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01-09-2009, 11:22 AM
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#219
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 95
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What's really sad about JHo is the phenonemal talent that he's wasting... you know where he might thrive? With a player like KG and the Celtics. He seems to me like he needs to show him what hard work is.
__________________
The Dallas Mavericks... the team of the FIRST ROUND!
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01-09-2009, 01:36 PM
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#220
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 101
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i dont think we need to trade josh just yet, he hasn't been in the media since the season started an i think he will grow out of it. just like how artest grew out of it i think josh will 2.
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01-09-2009, 02:49 PM
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#221
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Between Blue Lines
Posts: 4,425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MavericksFan5912
What's really sad about JHo is the phenonemal talent that he's wasting... you know where he might thrive? With a player like KG and the Celtics. He seems to me like he needs to show him what hard work is.
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As if Dirk and Kidd don't work hard enough?
__________________
"I still go through it in my head," Nowitzki said. "One of my last nights in Germany [last month], I was trying to go to sleep, but I couldn't. I was thinking about the free throw I missed [late in Game 3], about different situations that happened in that series. I'll never forget it. It's going to stay in my mind until we win it all."
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01-09-2009, 02:57 PM
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#222
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty
As if Dirk and Kidd don't work hard enough?
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No KIDDing. (easy now...)
I know Dirk isn't the most vocal leader, but if any player on the Mavs doesn't follow his example of work ethic, their fault.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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01-09-2009, 02:59 PM
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#223
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: uranus
Posts: 13,577
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^Cue Gerald Green??... perhaps.
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01-09-2009, 03:07 PM
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#224
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Guru
Join Date: May 2001
Location: sport
Posts: 39,431
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To think or write that Josh is the Mavs most important player is idiotic.
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01-09-2009, 04:01 PM
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#225
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy3
To think or write that Josh is the Mavs most important player is idiotic.
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Exhibit 1:
Quote:
Originally Posted by creditXpert2003
It seems that you miss the value of Howard. Howard is the Most Important Player with the Mavs. Namely because his scoring, rebounding and for the most part defense. To me, the closest player to Howard when it comes to an defensive all-around player is Prince. Howard is a better scorer and rebounder and better slasher to the hole.
If the Mavs lose Howard they lose their MOST important piece for the future. I would actually give up my season tickets if they did this as a protect, and influence about 10 other season ticket holders to do the same. Howard is one of the best up and coming All-Stars in the NBA, and should be paid as such. Dont forget that the Mavs need to play catch-up from his ole contract money. The Mavs got him for a bargain for 4 years after this season.
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Exhibit 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by creditXpert2003
Dirk is the Most Valuable Player, but Josh is the most important. Josh is needed for EVERYTHING on the court, especially to spark the defense. Where did you get ruining the salary cap from Howard? The Mavs are under the cap from 2007 forward. Take a look at this. Who is the Mavs MVP in 2009-2010 with this current roster? Howard! Howard should get 8-10 million a year with this new contract, but there are alot of restrictions in place right now for an increase from his current contract for an early extension. It is alot more complicated than you think. I can name about 6 things working against this deal for now. These obstacles have been in place for all extensions for contracts.
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__________________
Is this ghost ball??
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01-21-2009, 11:18 PM
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#226
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Golden Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,062
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Go for the deal, Let's get it done and fast..
__________________
We need defensive players who have size and athleticism.
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01-22-2009, 12:37 AM
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#227
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 19,413
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F*ck Josh Howard.
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01-22-2009, 12:40 AM
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#228
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 17,873
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We can only wonder what sort of contributor Josh would be if he had been allowed to continue developing on his pre-2006/2007 trajectory. Instead, Avery forced him into this "#2 scorer" role that didn't suit his skills or his brain at all.
__________________
John Madden on Former NFL Running Back Leroy Hoard: "You want one yard, he'll get you three. You want five yards, he'll get you three."
"Your'e a low-mentality drama gay queen!!" -- She_Growls
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01-22-2009, 12:50 AM
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#229
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Golden Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,456
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At this point I would trade Josh Howard for Darrell Armstrong. At leat he was a good locker room presence, he played his a$$ off any time he was in the game and he actually cared about the team. That's three times more than what Josh is giving the team.
Last edited by craggmac; 01-22-2009 at 12:51 AM.
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01-22-2009, 01:13 AM
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#230
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornDub
We can only wonder what sort of contributor Josh would be if he had been allowed to continue developing on his pre-2006/2007 trajectory. Instead, Avery forced him into this "#2 scorer" role that didn't suit his skills or his brain at all.
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yeah. It's all Avery's fault [eyeroll].
This is probably what happened:
Coach: "Stop it Josh, don't grab anymore rebounds, and don't start passing now. You're my #2 scorer. And why don't you just settle for jumpshots? It'll work well in my unimaginative isolation offense. The way you play is exactly how I won championships in San Antonio."
Josh: "No way, man (whine)! I'm gonna make the all-star team and get Paid as a great glue guy. Stop trying to boss me into increased production! I'm gonna go smoke weed and have parties because you are so mean!"
But you'd rather have:
Coach: "Listen team, I know we need another scorer to take the heat off Dirk, and Josh has shown the talent, and has a history of level headed leadership in college, and works hard in every aspect of the game, but I don't want him to be the #2 guy because I like it when Dirk gets doubled and every one else fails to get anything done. And besides, Josh will melt down as soon as he gets a taste of importance."
Josh: "That sounds great to me, I won't act up in any way. Ever. I love the Mavs."
Meanwhile, someone else was saying things like, "You want Josh in this KG trade? No way, man!" and "You want Josh Howard for Ron Artest??? The Josh Howard??? No way, man!"
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04-26-2009, 04:37 AM
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#231
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,002
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another one ttt
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04-26-2009, 08:01 AM
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#232
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: behind you
Posts: 6,248
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Gotta love Josh's play of late. It sounds funny, but last night, as we were in the 4th quarter and needed to score, I thought to myself, "Josh is our best option."
Yes. In the 4th quarter, in the clutch. Josh. I know. Really shows how he's been playing as of late.
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04-26-2009, 08:56 AM
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#233
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Guru
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 40,410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcat075
Gotta love Josh's play of late. It sounds funny, but last night, as we were in the 4th quarter and needed to score, I thought to myself, "Josh is our best option."
Yes. In the 4th quarter, in the clutch. Josh. I know. Really shows how he's been playing as of late.
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Yup...that's what he needs to become also. He's our most athletic wing man and has to take advantage of that.
How refreshing that now we have a slashing wingman playing in the fourth quarter. If RC has done nothing else but fix josh, he's done the organization great.
__________________
"Yankees fans who say “flags fly forever’’ are right, you never lose that. It reinforces all the good things about being a fan. ... It’s black and white. You (the Mavs) won a title. That’s it and no one can say s--- about it.’’
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04-26-2009, 10:14 AM
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#234
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Golden Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,472
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I like josh when josh WANTS to play hard - the problem is that he doesn't always have that mentality. if he can get his ankle and wrist fixed in the offseason he can be very valuable for the mavs next season. especially if we add another piece or two with the expiring contracts of stack and others.
DA seems to have helped josh a lot - if we can build on that, maybe get a low post threat (shaq or bosh) and maybe a good weak side shooter who can drive we should be in a good position.
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04-30-2009, 01:59 AM
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#235
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Guru
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Brasil
Posts: 15,401
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Why he is now listed on yahoo with 6-5?
He was (and still is on nba.com) always 6-7.
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04-30-2009, 02:08 AM
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#236
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Golden Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,062
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He grew an inch shorter every season..
__________________
We need defensive players who have size and athleticism.
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04-30-2009, 02:39 AM
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#237
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Banned
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,074
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So I guess pot really does stunt your growth...and regress it.
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