02-18-2009, 12:46 PM
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#1
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 210
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At DB.com If All Else Fails ... my idea for the Mavs ideal backup trade option
At db.com, detailed article on If All Else Fails (what should be the Mavs' backup option if they can't find the super homerun deal)
The short version ... in this climate, I see an obvious window of opportunity to upgrade via trade (includes full discussion of which teams the Mavs look to be competing with as a buyer of salary, who else may or may not be in the picture, and how that positions Dallas in the market)
My preference ...Shaq (Shaq-Barnes-Hill for Stack-JHo-Williams)
Next ....a Gasol-ish homerun
The If All Else Fails ... Salmons/Moore from Sacramento for Stack/Wright
Why is this my If All Else Fails choice?
Salmons ...oft-discussed upgrade, isn't the Gasol-ish homerun but will improve the team by adding another starter-level talent
Moore ...a backup center of some use who thrived alongside Kidd in NJ
...but more importantly, he (a) makes the trade-matching on a deal for Salmons work and in a sweeter way for Sac, and (b) the super part for the Mavs would be, his contract is just like Stackhouse's, only partly guaranteed for 09-10, so they can get him now and trade him in May-June - giving a second/backup shot to swing for the homerun at a time when you can also combine Carroll's shrinking deal to help get to a much bigger salary dump for another team and when there will be few if any competitors who can or will be offering instant salary reduction to a desperate team
Fuller details in the article on the DallasBasketball.com HOMEpage http://www.dallasbasketba...om/fullColumn.php?id=1344
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02-18-2009, 12:59 PM
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#2
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLord
My preference ...Shaq (Shaq-Barnes-Hill for Stack-JHo-Williams)
Next ....a Gasol-ish homerun
The If All Else Fails ... Salmons/Moore from Sacramento for Stack/Wright
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Obviously a Shaq/Barnes/Hill deal is at the top of the list (and even more Gasol-ish than the Gasol deal) and Salmons/Moore is obviously a better move than nothing...
Just wondering where the Jamison/Butler for Howard/Stack+ idea sits... It doesn't look as sexy as Shaq, but it certainly looks better than Carter or any other ideas floating around... What would be the reality (if there even is one) of swinging such a deal?
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These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 02-18-2009 at 01:00 PM.
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02-18-2009, 01:01 PM
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#3
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Diamond Member
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The latest update I saw on ESPN's website said the Wiz might be looking to hold on to Jamison, and that Cleveland was starting to look elsewhere. Who knows if that's a smokescreen or not...
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02-18-2009, 01:10 PM
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#4
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Who knows if that's a smokescreen or not...
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Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)
I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 01:12 PM
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#5
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Guru
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I'd like to see more concrete information today about anything! It just sounds like randomness is flying all over the place about rumors. We just need some dominoes to start falling and see where we fit in the process.
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02-18-2009, 01:16 PM
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#6
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,181
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I have a feeling we're not going to make any big trades. Maybe one or two end of bench type trades.
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02-18-2009, 01:18 PM
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#7
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)
I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...
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Marion for JO and Chandler to OKC come to mind, actually.
Edit: oh yeah, and there was that little Jason Kidd/Devin Harris bit.
__________________
"He's coming off the bench aggressive right away, looking for his shot. If he has any daylight, we need him to shoot the ball. We know it's going in."
-Dirk Nowitzki on Jason Terry, after JET's 16 point 4th quarter against the Pacers.
Last edited by grndmstr_c; 02-18-2009 at 01:21 PM.
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02-18-2009, 01:21 PM
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#8
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGMaverick9
I'd like to see more concrete information today about anything! It just sounds like randomness is flying all over the place about rumors. We just need some dominoes to start falling and see where we fit in the process.
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Ain't that the truth - it seems like Dallas' name is attached to every available player on the market... I think a lot of the rumors and counter rumors flying around are intended to drive up (or down) asking prices... All of a sudden, San Antonio's name is popping up as an alternative for every Dallas trade rumor - coincidence?
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 01:26 PM
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#9
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Guru
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doesn't this belong in the trade and draft forum?
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02-18-2009, 01:26 PM
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#10
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Ain't that the truth - it seems like Dallas' name is attached to every available player on the market... I think a lot of the rumors and counter rumors flying around are intended to drive up (or down) asking prices... All of a sudden, San Antonio's name is popping up as an alternative for every Dallas trade rumor - coincidence?
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I think we deserve a fair amount of blame for associating ourselves with everyone out in the market. That's just how we roll with the fantasy GM'ing. I think it's a pretty short list of players we'd actually consider looking at:
Shaq and Phoenix Parts
Salmons and/or Miller and minor Sacramento Parts
the real outside glance is at someone from Washington. That seems like a team you can pounce on. The rest is probably just randomness trying to stick.
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02-18-2009, 01:34 PM
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#11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grndmstr_c
Marion for JO and Chandler to OKC come to mind, actually.
Edit: oh yeah, and there was that little Jason Kidd/Devin Harris bit.
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I was going to mention the Kidd trade, but that rumor had been circulating for years before it finally went down (and nobody could have predicted the details of that trade when it did...)
Marion for J.O. was definitely a strong possibility, but Chandler to OKC seemed like a long shot considering how well the Hornets were rolling along... I suppose you can throw any idea to a wall to see if it sticks then claim you knew it was going to happen, but I don't think a lot of people took the Chandler to OKC idea seriously (I guess people do crazy sh!t when money is tight...)
No doubt I exaggerated, but for every "Marion for JO" rumor you have, there's an "Iverson for Billups" and "Gasol for Kwame" trade that comes out of left field...
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 01:39 PM
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#12
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)
I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...
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Kidd-Marbury was rumored by Vescey back in February 2001, he was early by about oh.....5 months. Some stick and some don't. That Chandler trade was rumored Monday and went down Tuesday.
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02-18-2009, 01:51 PM
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#13
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd Karma
Kidd-Marbury was rumored by Vescey back in February 2001, he was early by about oh.....5 months. Some stick and some don't. That Chandler trade was rumored Monday and went down Tuesday.
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Something rumored Monday that goes down Tuesday is pretty much the definition of "out of left field" by NBA standards...
(that's probably part of why the Kidd trade got botched - too much national press coverage for too long really made us look desperate to close the deal, which allowed NJ to jack up the price - I blame Marc Stein!)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 01:59 PM
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#14
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Golden Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Obviously a Shaq/Barnes/Hill deal is at the top of the list (and even more Gasol-ish than the Gasol deal) and Salmons/Moore is obviously a better move than nothing...
Just wondering where the Jamison/Butler for Howard/Stack+ idea sits... It doesn't look as sexy as Shaq, but it certainly looks better than Carter or any other ideas floating around... What would be the reality (if there even is one) of swinging such a deal?
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A Jamison/Butler move would be the sexiness idea out of all of em. And it would trump the Gasol trade.
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02-18-2009, 02:09 PM
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#15
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)
I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...
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I understand what you mean. But let me give you a few items of feedback on the issues you raise ...
1. All deals are unlikely. Period.
2. While we think trades spring fully done from nowhere, do they really? Last year we heard about Kidd for WEEKS before it happened. Marion-O'Neal has been reported as being discussed for a couple months, maybe? NO is willing to dump Chandler and is looking for a buyer, 2 weeks ago. Maybe OKC only cropped up days before it happened as the buyer, but in general the deal wasn't a surprise at all. Diop to Charlotte? It was no surprise at all.
I suspect often these ideas are like a woman shopping for a dress. They try it on, doesn't quite fit, try on something similar and still doesn't fit, then aha there's the fit.
Okay, the Cassell tax-avoiding salary dump from Boston to the Kings, and the Aker tax-avoiding salary dump from Detroit to the Clipps, both came from nowhere.
3. I think a lot of these things leak out - along with fake ideas and failed ideas - so I fall back on "what makes sense" to try to separate wheat from chaff. That is to say, if something rumored looks like a deal that could meet both teams needs, it probably makes sense to them as well. And if it somewhere doesn't pass the sniff test, then one or both teams have probably tossed the idea in the dumper or it was never truly on the table.
4. The "trade targets/ideas" I offer at db.com come from the fact that there is evidence somewhere that those players are being shopped or their teams are in the trade mix. Is Salmons truly being discussed by the Mavs? I'd say yes, because I suspect they are looking at virtually EVERY available player and trying to figure who fits.
Shaq? Now on that one, while we know Phx was looking to deal and he was mentioned, I really don't know what if anything is being discussed. I started that idea, it's gained traction in the discussions because many think it makes sense, but I don't make the deals. If it's an active item between Dallas and Phx then they've kept it super quiet. It makes perfect sense to me from BOTH sides, given the Mavs needs and the Suns money issues, so that's why we keep talking about it.
5. I don't have any knowledge the Mavs are specifically targeting Salmons. I see the reports on Salmons and others, and like you I take them with a grain of salt.
6. But there is an undisputed trifecta that brings ME to mention Salmons, which is (a) the Kings are desperate to move salary, (b) the Mavs are looking for such a trade partner, and (c) when considering salary match, assets, and fit, Salmons makes the most sense to me of which Kings player they might have atop their list. And I'm a big Occam's Razor guy - ie given everything in play, Salmons looks like the most logical, so that makes it the likeliest outcome.
That sort of logic of course is why I also have focused on Shaq. Suns need to move money, Mavs are looking for that team, and Shaq would seem to be the player that Phx would be willing to move and the Mavs would welcome.
7. And all that having been said, let me repeat the most important fact to remember: All deals are unlikely. Period.
I give my ideas, my hopes, my logic, but at the end of the day, who knows.
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02-18-2009, 02:21 PM
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#16
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLord
I understand what you mean. But let me give you a few items of feedback on the issues you raise ...
1. All deals are unlikely. Period.
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I give my ideas, my hopes, my logic, but at the end of the day, who knows.
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Dammit, DLord - my heart doesn't have any use for "reality" over the next 24 hours!
Look me in the eyes and tell me, "everything's going to be okay - we're getting Shaq..."
EDIT: sorry about taking DLord's name in vain - I know how people around here hate that!
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 02:23 PM
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#17
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,195
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if all else fails . . .
"punch Cuban in the stomach night" at the AAC
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02-18-2009, 02:23 PM
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#18
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Golden Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,296
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Give me
Kidd/JET
Butler/JET
Jamison/George
Dirk/Singleton
Damp/Hollins
over any Shaq line-up.
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The Legendary Mavericks:
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02-18-2009, 02:28 PM
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#19
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverick
Give me
Kidd/JET
Butler/JET
Jamison/George
Dirk/Singleton
Damp/Hollins
over any Shaq line-up.
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Agreed, but there aren't any actual rumors about that trade floating around - just a bunch of speculation and what-ifs on the boards (and none of them realistic...)
Same could be said about Shaq, but at least those rumors can actually play out in reality - I'm still wondering how you'd get both Jamison and Butler here for the price of Howard/Stack (you'd probably have to toss Josh's pot dealer into the mix because the Wizard's FO would have to be high to pull the trigger...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 02-18-2009 at 02:33 PM.
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02-18-2009, 02:35 PM
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#20
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Diamond Member
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I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility? I mean not trying to sound like a prick but i've been hearing it around Dallas all week. And the fact that the Suns just fired Porter isn't that a sign they're staying pat?
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02-18-2009, 02:39 PM
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#21
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Guru
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I still think Stack should be moved for at least something that can contribute. Even if it's a plan C or D move. Team needs are a 2 guard or a 5. Possibly a back-up pg.
Get crackin!
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02-18-2009, 02:41 PM
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#22
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Diamond Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest
I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility? I mean not trying to sound like a prick but i've been hearing it around Dallas all week. And the fact that the Suns just fired Porter isn't that a sign they're staying pat?
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It became possible because of $$$$$. That green trumps basically everything else.
Them firing Porter might mean standing pat, or might mean a more running offense which Shaq is too old for.
Lots of speculation and thoughts on this one.
If they move Amare, then I think they keep Shaq. If they move Shaq, I think they keep Amare. Which way are they going to go, or are they just going to keep a high paid 9th place team, and keep losing money?
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"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Gerald Ford
"Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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02-18-2009, 02:43 PM
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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest
I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility?
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Because nobody in the East can afford him...
Mark Cuban is one of the only people willing to pay for Shaq right now (if the Suns plan on shipping him...)
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These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
Last edited by Underdog; 02-18-2009 at 02:48 PM.
Reason: clarity
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02-18-2009, 02:43 PM
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#24
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Diamond Member
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After Josh's pathetic play against Boston even Cubes should have noticed that this guy needs to be moved
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Last edited by Sportstudi; 02-18-2009 at 02:43 PM.
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02-18-2009, 02:44 PM
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#25
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Diamond Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart
I still think Stack should be moved for at least something that can contribute. Even if it's a plan C or D move. Team needs are a 2 guard or a 5. Possibly a back-up pg.
Get crackin!
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How about...........
Plan C or D or even F,G or H.
Three way trade with the partner Portland wants - where Portland uses Raef's expiring, and Dallas uses Stack -- and Dallas gets back Webster, Sergio Rod, and Channing Frye ---- all backup parts for Portland who would contribute here.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have". Gerald Ford
"Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Capt. Bob "Wolf" Johnson
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02-18-2009, 03:11 PM
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#26
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Golden Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Agreed, but there aren't any actual rumors about that trade floating around - just a bunch of speculation and what-ifs on the boards (and none of them realistic...)
Same could be said about Shaq, but at least those rumors can actually play out in reality - I'm still wondering how you'd get both Jamison and Butler here for the price of Howard/Stack (you'd probably have to toss Josh's pot dealer into the mix because the Wizard's FO would have to be high to pull the trigger...)
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I consider Shaq trade talks are all speculation as well.
__________________
The Legendary Mavericks:
- Mark Aguirre
- Rolando Blackman
- Tom Cruise
- Jason Kidd
- Mel Gibson
- Michael Finley
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Jason Kidd (again)
- who's next?
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02-18-2009, 03:13 PM
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#27
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMaverick
I consider Shaq trade talks are all speculation as well.
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I suppose we'll find out in a little less than 24 hours...
(why do I feel blue balls setting in?)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 03:30 PM
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#28
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Addison
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I am getting the feeling that tomorrow will be like the first christmas you are old enough to realize there is no Santa Claus.
And then you find out all your parents got you was a new pair of undershirts.
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F@*K THE SPURS!!
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02-18-2009, 03:33 PM
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#29
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX425
I am getting the feeling that tomorrow will be like the first christmas you are old enough to realize there is no Santa Claus.
And then you find out all your parents got you was a new pair of undershirts.
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__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 03:50 PM
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#30
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,233
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Rumors are crazy around the league. Depending on what rumors you read, every team is either active or...not active in trade talks. It's like a hurricane of gossip that can't be decoded.
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02-18-2009, 03:51 PM
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#31
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)
I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...
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except for the Kidd trade.
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02-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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#32
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
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Question: If I have hated this guy for as long as he has played, and think he is a pretty big tool, but am hoping every day to see him in my teams uniform, am I a sell-out?
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F@*K THE SPURS!!
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02-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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#33
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Golden Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
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No trades made by Cubes as of today, maybe tommorow..
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We need defensive players who have size and athleticism.
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02-18-2009, 03:56 PM
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#34
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill360
except for the Kidd trade.
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See posts #11 & #13...
(I should probably just edit the post you quoted so I can stop defending my statement...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 03:58 PM
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#35
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MX425
Question: If I have hated this guy for as long as he has played, and think he is a pretty big tool, but am hoping every day to see him in my teams uniform, am I a sell-out?
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If you ever get the chance to sell-out...... TAKE IT!
(why should fans be the only participants of the NBA with any integrity?)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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02-18-2009, 03:58 PM
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#36
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
See posts #11 & #13...
(I should probably just edit the post you quoted so I can stop defending my statement...)
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No! all your attempts are futile! you lose the game UD, you lose!
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02-18-2009, 03:59 PM
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#37
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill360
No! all your attempts are futile! you lose the game UD, you lose!
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/pwn't
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
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02-18-2009, 04:04 PM
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#38
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 210
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Some sources I trust say that Salmons-Miller to Chicago is close to done and could happen shortly. We'll see. If so, it cuts a chunk off the Kings payroll for next season - but in the long run, the money is virtually a wash. The Kings prefer that trade over mine that would have saved them $10M or more in payroll? Argggg.
Let me add: don't believe this until it's actually announced. At this time of year, there's smoke everywhere as teams try to drive up the price. So having heard this is super-close, at the same time when I look at it based on what the teams say they want, I have to think, "The Kings REALLY are going to go this direction. REALLY?" And I also have a hard time seeing how it's all that great for Chicago, frankly. But it's their decision not mine.
Last edited by DLord; 02-18-2009 at 04:12 PM.
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02-18-2009, 04:05 PM
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#39
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,526
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we are goners.
__________________
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02-18-2009, 04:08 PM
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#40
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Lazy Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Lazytown
Posts: 18,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLord
Some sources I trust say that Salmons-Miller to Chicago is close to done and could happen shortly. We'll see. If so, it cuts a chunk off the Kings payroll for next season - but in the long run, the money is virtually a wash. The Kings prefer that trade over mine that would have saved them $10M or more in payroll? Argggg.
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If that's the case I predict that we don't do anything.
And that saddens me.
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