Consistency in the starting lineup... - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kg_veteran · 10-24-2002, 10:16 AM

I've harped on the need for a consistent 5th starter quite a bit, because I think a team needs to know who plays what role on the team. In that light, I thought I'd look at the championship teams of the past 20 years or so and their starting lineups, to see if I could find one that DIDN'T use a consistent starting five.

Lakers:
Shaq
Horry/Grant (depending on the year)
Fox
Bryant
Fisher

Spurs:
Robinson
Duncan
Elliott
Elie
Johnson

Bulls:
Longley
Rodman
Pippen
Jordan
Harper

Rockets:
Olajuwon
Thorpe/Horry (depending on the year)
Horry/Elie (depending on the year)
Maxwell/Drexler (depending on the year)
Smith

Bulls:
Cartwright
Grant
Pippen
Jordan
Paxson

Pistons:
Laimbeer
Mahorn
Aguirre
Dumars
Thomas

Lakers:
Abdul-Jabbar
Green
Worthy
Scott
Magic

Celtics:
Parish
McHale
Bird
Ainge
Johnson

As far as I can see, they all stuck with a consistent starting five. They didn't rotate starters depending on match-ups. They forced people to match up with them.

I think I need to email Cuban...

Rhylan · 10-24-2002, 10:41 AM

kg, do you mean throughout the year or throughout the championship run?

Obviously throughout the year, because you say "depending on the year." duh. Makes sense [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

The only one I would rebut is the 91-92 and 92-93 Bulls, who used Paxson and BJ Armstrong almost interchangeably in those years, especially the third one.

..and possibly the second Reign of Terror from the Bulls.. because you had a lot of games in 96-97 and 97-98 where Rodzilla was coming off of the bench.

BUT!! Both of these teams had that Jordan dude. So.. exceptions are allowed.

You make a good point about forcing the other team to match up with YOU. Nellie is so in love with the versatility of his players that he's hung up on being crafty.

I don't think that's necessarily why the Mavs got bounced by the Kings so handily last year, but the constant shuffling does have an effect on team defense.

Drbio · 10-24-2002, 10:43 AM

I think kg is dead on here.

TheKid · 10-24-2002, 01:38 PM

I think he has a point too but I would to defer and say the Bulls only had TWO studs who are in the mix. That's Jordan and Pippen. Those are the only two who made differences on that team. I know Paxson hit a game winning shot one year but the truth be known, put ANY shooter in that position the Bulls would have won because Pippen and Jordan put them there...

The only question here is who will be the MAVS fifth starter..

Hoopsmeister · 10-24-2002, 01:53 PM

<< The only question here is who will be the MAVS fifth starter.. >>

Its somewhat more of an issue here because its not simply who will be the fifth starter but what position will have the fifth starter--will it be Bradley at Center with Raef at pf and Dirk at SF or will it be Griffin (or Najera or Williams) at sf with Dirk at pf and Raef at center. Or even Bell or NVE at sg with Fin at SF. In other words its not switching out starters its changing the whole line-up every time we do it. The only player who knows where he's playing every night is Nash.

Chiwas · 10-24-2002, 01:58 PM

1
Nash
Finley
Nowitzki
LaFrentz
Bradley

2
Nash
Finley
Griffin or Nájera
Nowitzki
LaFrentz

MavKikiNYC · 10-24-2002, 02:21 PM

A not-so-encouraging note:

<<Though the game gave Nelson a good sense for how he will work in different players in different situations, it was not a definitive sign. Celtics coach Jim O'Brien made headlines leading up to Wednesday's game by announcing his starting lineup for next week's regular-season opener. For Nelson, any such announcement would carry far less weight.

"I don't have a set lineup for the year," Nelson said. "We have three set players for sure. And the rest we'll figure out as we go." >>

My recycled .02, is that starters should be Nash, Fin, Griff, Nowitzki and Mantis, with LaF coming off the bench as 6th man, followed by NVE, Nájera and Williams. Esch takes junk minutes at end of quarters and halves to protect Mantis and LaF from additional fouls.

DTL · 10-24-2002, 02:53 PM

MavKiki - What's the reasoning for having LaF coming off the bench? I don't think I've heard that one before. Come to think of it, it wouldn't seem to be a bad idea to have Esch start at the 5, and bring in Bradley to change the flow of the game, which Nellie's said is how he wants to use Bradley.

What's most important, at any rate, is we should never, never, never again play Nash and NVE together.

Hoopsmeister · 10-24-2002, 03:21 PM

<< MavKiki - What's the reasoning for having LaF coming off the bench? I don't think I've heard that one before. Come to think of it, it wouldn't seem to be a bad idea to have Esch start at the 5, and bring in Bradley to change the flow of the game, which Nellie's said is how he wants to use Bradley. >>

Mavskiki hates Lafrentz. I willing to bet the 'Lafrentz as 6th man' is his compromise with the reality that Lafrentz isn't going to be traded any time soon. Personally, I think Mavskiki is expecting too much. Lafrentz is 4th or 5th guy on our roster and as such you don't expect an all-star, you just want a roleplayer. And Lafrentz is as good a player at that 4th-5th talent slot as any other team (with the possible except of Sacramento) is fielding.

<< What's most important, at any rate, is we should never, never, never again play Nash and NVE together. >>

I think that's an exaggeration too. Small ball has its place--small ball is how Houston has managed to stay a thorn in the Mavs side even as the Mavs turned into an elite playoff team and Houston remained in the lottery. I do think Nellie used it far too much and I don't want to see it more than 5-10 minutes a game--not only because of the defensive problems with it, but because more than that completely undermines the key reason for having a guy like NVE as our back-up point: to make sure Nash doesn't log too many minutes during the season.

Tarzan · 10-24-2002, 03:27 PM

<< Small ball is how Houston has managed to stay a thorn in the Mavs side even as the Mavs turned into an elite playoff team and Houston remained in the lottery. >>

I have to disagree with you on this point. The Mavs trying to play small ball better than the Rockets is what has cost the good guys some games. When the Mavs have used a bigger lineup it has resulted in momentum shifts in the Mav's favor. When the Mavs use small ball against the Rockets it plays into their strengths. I hope that Van Exel is not used as a shooting guard this season.

MavKikiNYC · 10-24-2002, 04:09 PM

DTL: << MavKiki - What's the reasoning for having LaF coming off the bench? I don't think I've heard that one before.>>

Hoops: <<Mavskiki hates Lafrentz. I willing to bet the 'Lafrentz as 6th man' is his compromise with the reality that Lafrentz isn't going to be traded any time soon.

MavKiki answers for self: I don't hate LaF, per se. I am recovering from Raef-hype toxicity, however, and am confronting the unpleasant reality that LaF won't ever be as good, or carry the Mavericks as far as was advertised post-trade. I was gullible.

Yeah, it looks like the team is stuck with LaF for awhile. And I actually think it would be a good move for him to come off the bench at least for a year or two (anybody ever hear of a guy named McHale?) until he starts to get some respect from the officials.

Coming off the bench would let LaF get a chance to get a feel for the game, see how things are being called, and get his minutes a little later in the game, when, presumably, the outcome is being decided. He would be less likely to get in early foul trouble, and could actually play and play more agressively toward the end of games.

Also, on the off-chance that LaF really does have some hidden scoring ability, he's not really going to get a good chance to develop it as long as he's always playing as the 4th or 5th option alongside Dirk, Fin, Nash, and occasionally NVE. If LaF is a skill player, they have to put him in situations where he can showcase his ability and not always be deferring to the super-talented Dirk. It's like the Mavericks have what is advertised as a skilled player, but they ask him to perform role player functions. It's a waste of (alleged) talent. Hell, the Mavericks DO NOT NEED 5 scoring options on the floor at the same time. In fact, it usually has turned out to be counter-productive, except in a couple of go-for-broke desperate comeback situations.

If LaF were coming off the bench, he could come in to sub for Mantis for a couple of minutes to get warmed up, then could shift down to PF to give Dirk a couple of minutes of rest. At this point LaF could be the frontcourt offensive threat and show what he's got--either that he has it or that he don't. Then Dirk comes back in at the 3, LaFs at 4 with Mantis or Esch at the 5. At any rate, it gives him a chance to be a primary offensive threat for stretches of the game, instead of being the afterthought that he's been so far.

Maybe Hoops is just more of a realist than I am. Maybe LaF's talent isn't really all that. Maybe I shouldn't be expecting so much. But if that's the case, then Cuban and Nellie sure sold the lot of us a bill of goods when they brought him in here last year, and that trade should be re-evaluated on that basis.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-24-2002, 04:30 PM

<<

<< Small ball is how Houston has managed to stay a thorn in the Mavs side even as the Mavs turned into an elite playoff team and Houston remained in the lottery. >>

I have to disagree with you on this point. The Mavs trying to play small ball better than the Rockets is what has cost the good guys some games. When the Mavs have used a bigger lineup it has resulted in momentum shifts in the Mav's favor. When the Mavs use small ball against the Rockets it plays into their strengths. I hope that Van Exel is not used as a shooting guard this season. >>

Actually I remembe one game when we played the Rockets and we started Finley at the 2 and I am not sure if we lost but I just remember the annoucners consistently saying " Nash and Finley are getting out ran by the Rockets 2 guards" And the thing about Rockets is that they have a deep guard position with Moochie, Mobley, Francis and sometimes Griffen. Minus Griffen those guys seem to kill us every time though this year they should be slowed down with the addition of Ming. Last season I think they had Kenny Thomas the the 4.

Hoopsmeister · 10-24-2002, 04:43 PM

<<

<< Small ball is how Houston has managed to stay a thorn in the Mavs side even as the Mavs turned into an elite playoff team and Houston remained in the lottery. >>

I have to disagree with you on this point. The Mavs trying to play small ball better than the Rockets is what has cost the good guys some games. When the Mavs have used a bigger lineup it has resulted in momentum shifts in the Mav's favor. When the Mavs use small ball against the Rockets it plays into their strengths. I hope that Van Exel is not used as a shooting guard this season. >>

I didn't say *our* playing small ball is what has made Houston a thorn in our side. I was pointing out that Houston's small ball is the strength they have used to stay competitive with us. The point simply being that there are circumstances where small ball works. I agree that we shouldn't play it against Houston. And we shouldn't play it as much as Nellie did last year. But to mark it off as something we should never do is a mistake.

DTL · 10-24-2002, 04:43 PM

<< the key reason for having a guy like NVE as our back-up point: to make sure Nash doesn't log too many minutes during the season. >>

i agree completely.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-24-2002, 04:49 PM

<< [i]

<< [i]

<< But to mark it off as something we should never do is a mistake. >>

I agree Hoop. If yall noticed when we put that lineup in Kings followed right behind us and put Bobby and Bibby in. The first time they tried it didnt work for them but the game where Bobby lit us up for 24 is where it hurted. I dont think we lost tha series because of that lineup I think it was because Nash and Nick where worn out which has been said here previously. Nick is gonna get his 25-30 a game and Nash will get 30 also so we have no choice but to play the small ball every once in a while because we have to make our players happy.

Hoopsmeister · 10-24-2002, 04:54 PM

<< Maybe Hoops is just more of a realist than I am. Maybe LaF's talent isn't really all that. Maybe I shouldn't be expecting so much. But if that's the case, then Cuban and Nellie sure sold the lot of us a bill of goods when they brought him in here last year, and that trade should be re-evaluated on that basis. >>

Nellie is always selling a bill of goods (remember Anstey, the 'best running seven-footer in the NBA'?). Pro Sports is first and foremost an entertainment industry so I keep the same grain of salt around for quotes from sports execs that I do for any other hype-driven industry ('this is the best work I've ever done''the most fun you'll ever have!').

As far as the trade goes, until and unless Harvey blows up, the trade can be judged simply on are Lafrentz and NVE an upgrade over Howard and Hardaway. The answer to that seems to me to be an easy yes--Hardaway is not even playing this year, so unless NVE completely explodes in our face, that's an easy one, Lafrentz and Howard are fairly comparable but Lafrentz's ability to play center and hit the occasional 3 makes him a far better fit for the Mavs than Howard who had to be a 4 to be effective at all (thus limiting what we could do with Dirk).

MavKikiNYC · 10-24-2002, 05:35 PM

Fair enough points, Hoops, as long as NVE stays on the leash, although I tend to think that HOWARD was the better fit for this team. A role-player talent performing role-player functions, not the alleged skill player that LaF is, being under-used for yeoman's tasks.

But I think that the cost of AJ's and TAW's contracts should be added to whatever production the Mavericks get out of LaF and NVE. In that light, these two are even less of a bargain, and the Mavericks won't be rid of these contracts for the forseeable future.

I've gone from enthusiastic to pessimistic in the course of a year, because LaF and NVE keep the ceiling frustratingly low for this team, and there's not even the hope of a breakout from a talent like Wang Zhizhi. The Mavs would've been rid of Juwan (and Tim) after this year--and free (or freer) to maneuever in next year's free agent market.

This squad looked about as good as it's going to get coming out of the Sacramento series. Improvement would be losing in a seven-game series.

I feel cheated.

miles berg · 10-28-2002, 12:43 AM

Raef LaFrentz is absolutely perfect for Dallas. He spreads the court out, opens up the lane, and makes Dirk more effective in the process.

What you saw last year was a lost, unconfident LaFrentz just trying to fit in. This year he will know his role, hit his shots, and will be confident. He is a great shot blocker, great shooter, runs the court, is basketball smart, and has upside rebounding and scoring wise.

This team just needs a 3 that can shoot the three and play defense. Someone that is more important on defense than offense but can still contribute on offense by draining long range shots off double teams on Dirk.

aexchange · 10-28-2002, 01:50 AM

<< But I think that the cost of AJ's and TAW's contracts should be added to whatever production the Mavericks get out of LaF and NVE. In that light, these two are even less of a bargain, and the Mavericks won't be rid of these contracts for the forseeable future. >>

this is something i've never understood. the mavs would be over the cap regardless of whether they had TAW or AJ's contracts. it really doesnt matter or impact how you should judge the performance of van exel or lafrentz.

Epitome22 · 10-28-2002, 02:29 PM

I mentioned this before but I think LaFrentz would be absolutly perfect coming off the bench. I think the guy is at best a slightly better than Average Forward in the NBA. He's not really a Center and he's more suited for the type of game Dirk plays only we alreayd have a Dirk and he's way better. ASSuming (I'll let myself fall into the Bradley trap too) That Bradley has made remarkable imrpvoements and can be at the least a 6/8 guy with 2-3 blocks a night, Then I think a great lineup would be

Nash
Finley
Griffin/Jones
Nowitzki
Bradley

with that starting core and you have LaFrentz coming off the bench to fill the role Scott Pollard fills with the Kings. He comes into play Big Forward or Center for whomever gets tired first between Nowitzki and Bradley. LaFrentz would go from being a solid starter to being probably one of the best Bench Players in the league. He would be like a Poor Man's Clifford Robinson to an extent. With Van Exel, LaFrentz and Jones being your 6, 7 and 8 guys? LaF comes in to sub at the 4 or 5, Van Exel subs at the one, Griffin, Jones, Najera and Wahad divide up the three and Finley,Griffin,Bell divide up the two. We would have one of the deepest teams 1-8

Of course don't actually expect this to happen. Nelly will find someway to fuck it up.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-28-2002, 04:14 PM

Why does anyone even think Bradely will contribute more than Raef could? Because of his PRESEASON performances? As of right now I would rather go small ball then have Bradely starting he played well in preseason last season too I have got to see more of him then just preseason.