OFFICIAL GDT: GAME 2 - MAVS V. NUGGETS - 9:30pm TNT - Page 20 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

rakesh.s · 05-06-2009, 12:39 AM

carlisle isn't the problem

the mavs don't have enough talent to hang with the nuggets. If Dirk could ever get a legit second option before he fades out of his prime, this team could be lethal.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

1st, you gotta push him. 2nd, if Denver doesn't get all full of themselves right away in the 4th, who knows what would have happened. 3rd, as has been mentioned, Damp and Hollins could have done something. Neither was perfect, but at least they were challenging folks. Bass has been as useless as Kidd.

I'm all for pushing younger players. I'm also all for pushing Dirk in terms of in-game strategy (e.g. "Dirk, you need to be more aggressive going to the hoop", etc.).

I'm not all for telling your superstar player, who is the sole reason that you're not a lottery team, and has singlehandedly kept you in a game with his tremendous heart, that he can't have two minutes of rest.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, but I just think it would be a downright awful move in terms of Carlisle's professional relationship with Dirk to refuse a request for 2 minutes of rest.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by candid_snoop41

Did anyone see our overpaid fatass "trash talking" center...

ah, another no show tonight...thanks for nothing ericka

What are you talking about dude??? Did you not see him call out Parker in an interview last series?? That's much better than actually doing something on the court.

Thomas86 · 05-06-2009, 12:43 AM

Rick Carlisle did not build this team...you can't bash him.

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I don't see how Kidd was going to last if you kept him out there.
Dirk obviously needed the rest.

Damp was at 5 fouls, Hollins would be better if Kidd is out there.
So you're just running Jet out there with a bunch of support players. If you're already screwed either way, I'll go for broke and take my chances and hope the bench can hold up. It might've been a fluke, but they chipped in with scoring in the first half.

How many fouls did Damp finish with? And Hollins has been the only Mav to match the aggression of the Nuggets.
If you are screwed either way, why in the world would you gamble on the bench rather than gambling on Dirk?

ray_sir_6 · 05-06-2009, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNugs

Well at least you can't blame this one on the officating.

Please tell me that was sarcasm. Even the announcers are pointing out the blatantly bad calls.

"I could hear that foul from here." when they stole the ball from Terry (this was when they were either tied or within 2pts, so BIG SWAY in momentum courtesy of the refs)

"He made tons of contact, pushed the defender 6ft away." when Carmelo rammed Wright out of the way and then they T'd up the Mavs coach for complaining.

"I see why Dirk is upset, that was clearing off the Nuggets" when the refs screwed yet another call.

The refs can control the flow of the game with their calls, and they were making the 4th quater impossible for the Mavs to get going.

Oh, and the charge Damp took in the first half on the fast break wasn't in the protected area. He had both feet in front of it until he was contacted and he put his foot back where his heel was bearing on the line. It's a tit-tat call, but one I rewatched a few times, cause it looked to me that he was well out of the blocking circle....and he was.

I wish there would be more fairness in the calls the refs are making. I was thinking it was going well until the 4th started, and they weren't calling anything on Denver, but the Mavs seemed to be getting called on tit-tat fouls that wouldn't have been called earlier. Like Dampier getting a block on the baseline that they called a foul. It was a bad camera angle, but it didn't show any body contact, and if Damp got part of the hand, is was barely his pinkie, and 99% ball.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav4ever

they did exactly what the 2 seed is supposed to do.

they took care of home court.

this is a series till somebody loses at home.

if it goes 7 games, which it easily could, dont think the thuggets lack of playoff experience as a team might not be exposed.

Golden State had no experience. Hornets had none outside of Peja. Experience is overrated to me. Better teams will win.

CadBane · 05-06-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not "trying" to be anything, except capable of counting, which apparently gives me a leg up over you.

But seriously--it was really intelligent of you to note how the second lineup had only one scoring option, despite the fact that the first one had exactly the same number. Great stuff. That's stuff only Sagan can teach.

Are you really that stupid? I never said the lineup he ran out had less scoring options than the one I said he should have used. I said the one he used had NO center and only ONE scoring option. I NEVER said the hypothetical one had MORE scoring options. Clearly you can't count, read or comprehend. Idiot.

BGMaverick9 · 05-06-2009, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

How many fouls did Damp finish with? And Hollins has been the only Mav to match the aggression of the Nuggets.
If you are screwed either way, why in the world would you gamble on the bench rather than gambling on Dirk?

Because he said he needed rest...plain and simple. Before he got the rest he was probably close to being on fumes. I said that was a major concern for me heading into the 4th. When he is rolling like that, you just have to hope he doesn't get burnt out, add to that the tempo of the game and the altitude...it drops him down quicker. He already admitted that he was spent after Game 1. He was rolling along at the same pace tonight as Game 1, just more productive in scoring. If he said he needed the rest, I'm going to take him at his word and give him the rest.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 12:49 AM

Awful lineup to start the 4th. If you're going to give Dirk a blow, why on Earth are you going small?

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm all for pushing younger players. I'm also all for pushing Dirk in terms of in-game strategy (e.g. "Dirk, you need to be more aggressive going to the hoop", etc.).

Then how about, "Dirk, we need you for 12 more minutes tonight. Have you seen Bass try to score against these guys? And it looks like the JET's playoff slump will last the rest of the decade. Can you at least give me 2 or 3 minutes to get us off to a good start in the 4th?"

CadBane · 05-06-2009, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Awful lineup to start the 4th. If you're going to give Dirk a blow, why on Earth are you going small?

Ask Longhorndumb.

Thomas86 · 05-06-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackspider972

Golden State had no experience. Hornets had none outside of Peja. Experience is overrated to me. Better teams will win.

Yea but how far did thoes team go in the playoffs?...both of thoes teams go sent home right after they sent the Mavs home.

Dtownsfinest · 05-06-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rakesh.s

carlisle isn't the problem

the mavs don't have enough talent to hang with the nuggets. If Dirk could ever get a legit second option before he fades out of his prime, this team could be lethal.

I think this is what's going unnoticed. Seriously. Nuggets talent-wise is superior to anything the Mavs throw out there. Especially with a hobbled Josh.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I think this is what's going unnoticed. Seriously. Nuggets talent-wise is superior to anything the Mavs throw out there. Especially with a hobbled Josh.

The team missed Josh. No question about that. But the bottom line is, they were within 3 at the end of 3. Carlisle should have put this team in better position to succeed.

That, and I suppose the guys that were out on the court to start the 4th shouldn't have bent over and asked for it.

BGMaverick9 · 05-06-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Then how about, "Dirk, we need you for 12 more minutes tonight. Have you seen Bass try to score against these guys? And it looks like the JET's playoff slump will last the rest of the decade. Can you at least give me 2 or 3 minutes to get us off to a good start in the 4th?"

It's not the decision, it's the roster.
Like I said, it might've been a fluke but you got at least 13-15 points out of the bench in their short run in the first half. They are guys who have stepped up before over the year. I know the playoffs are different, you don't need to tell me that. But they showed some life in the first half. If they gave you absolutely nothing, zip, nada, zilch in the first half...then yes, I see that's a big move to make.

We had all systems a go in the Spurs series and that worked for us. Right now it doesn't look to be the case. The problem with this team is it's flawed, big time. The team has to play just about perfect basketball as a team to get a win or have 2-3 of it's stars have dominating games to help mask the holes. If it's anything less, then it's just not going to get the job done.

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I think this is what's going unnoticed. Seriously. Nuggets talent-wise is superior to anything the Mavs throw out there. Especially with a hobbled Josh.

Kidd has killed us for 2 games. Terry has killed us for most of 2 games. Josh ('s ankles) have killed us for most of two games. Bass, Barea, Singleton have killed us for all but a couple minutes. Carlisle absolutely killed us for about 3 very important minutes tonight. WHile his bench was producing tonight, and while more than one of his stars have been on, Carlisle's done a great job -except for the start of the 4th tonight.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 12:57 AM

I think some consideration has to also be given to the fact that the Nuggets are just a really good home team. Combine that with losing Josh, and it's not a huge surprise to go home 0-2. The Mavs just have to do the same (win both at home, and they are also a really good home team), and then come back and steal Game 5.

I hate this long layoff coming up, but it's probably the best thing for Josh.

tremaine · 05-06-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Don't try to be clever, because you're not. Yes, it still only has one, but it also isn't a HUGE liability on D like the lineup sporting JJB and NO center. And it at least gives Kidd a guy to get dunks on (Damp or Hollins).

That lineup was a mistake, true; the Nuggets will usually eat alive any team that tries to play small. I have to respect Dirk needing rest, and I don't know enough about the Mavs players to say who should have been in early in the 4th, but there no doubt should have been another big man in there.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas86

Yea but how far did thoes team go in the playoffs?...both of thoes teams go sent home right after they sent the Mavs home.

Correct. Because in the next rounds, they lost to the better teams i.e. Jazz and Spurs for those teams.

Denver is better than us. No question about it. At least on their floor they are. If we are to win this series with any hope, you better win 4 in a row starting Saturday.

Dtownsfinest · 05-06-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The team missed Josh. No question about that. But the bottom line is, they were within 3 at the end of 3. Carlisle should have put this team in better position to succeed.

That, and I suppose the guys that were out on the court to start the 4th shouldn't have bent over and asked for it.

Yea but you know fatigue eventually will sink in. So it shouldn't be any surprise this game was lost in the 4th quarter when the guys are dead tired. I just don't think you can afford to sit Dirk and go small. Not with Josh out there. Carlisle through out possibly the worst lineup he could've tonight.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Kidd has killed us for 2 games. Terry has killed us for most of 2 games. Josh ('s ankles) have killed us for most of two games. Bass, Barea, Singleton have killed us for all but a couple minutes.

I think Barea and Singleton were fine tonight. Bass was awful, as he was in Game 1.

Kidd absolutely has to play better.

Quote:

Carlisle absolutely killed us for about 3 very important minutes tonight.

Sure, but not by pulling Dirk. He killed us by not having a center on the floor.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Yea but you know fatigue eventually will sink in. So it shouldn't be any surprise this game was lost in the 4th quarter when the guys are dead tired. I just don't think you can afford to sit Dirk and go small. Not with Josh out there. Carlisle through out possibly the worst lineup he could've tonight.

I don't think fatigue had anything to do with the performance of the players on the court to start the 4th.

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Sure, but not by pulling Dirk. He killed us by not having a center on the floor.

Carlisle chose the worst of several options.

kg_veteran · 05-06-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Carlisle chose the worst of several options.

Can't argue there. I couldn't believe what I saw.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Are you really that stupid? I never said the lineup he ran out had less scoring options than the one I said he should have used. I said the one he used had NO center and only ONE scoring option. I NEVER said the hypothetical one had MORE scoring options. Clearly you can't count, read or comprehend. Idiot.

I'm sorry, what was that? I was too busy reading Dostoyevsky.

I do enjoy the childish name-calling. It feels oh so good to know I'm so firmly implanted in your skull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Awful lineup to start the 4th. If you're going to give Dirk a blow, why on Earth are you going small?

I have no idea why he chose that particular line-up. For the record, I'm only defending Carlisle's decision to sit Dirk. I'm not defending the line-up he used more broadly than that.

I do tend to agree that going without a Center for so long is incredibly suspect. Also, I thought Terry had played almost the entire game once Howard went out, but you really probably need to keep him out there for those two minutes.

NYMAVGUY · 05-06-2009, 01:03 AM

Kobe gets 2 minutes at the top of the 4th. Star players that do a lot on the floor usually need it. If we need Dirk to play 48 minutes, we don't really deserve to win, cause that means the team isn't good enough.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 01:04 AM

Nene got his playoff scoring high in game 1. Then he breaks that tonight. That about sums up the first 2 games.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackspider972

Nene got his playoff scoring high in game 1. Then he breaks that tonight. That about sums up the first 2 games.

Par for the course. Nobody can make a pretty good player look absolutely awesome like the Mavs.

BGMaverick9 · 05-06-2009, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackspider972

Nene got his playoff scoring high in game 1. Then he breaks that tonight. That about sums up the first 2 games.

I wonder how many players within the past 5-7 years have gotten their career highs vs the Mavs? I'm not talking the Kobe or Lebron's of the world...the middle tier guys.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I wonder how many players within the past 5-7 years have gotten their career highs vs the Mavs? I'm not talking the Kobe or Lebron's of the world...the middle tier guys.

Way too many bro, way too many.

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYMAVGUY

If we need Dirk to play 48 minutes, we don't really deserve to win, cause that means the team isn't good enough.

well, without Josh, guess what?
What are you saving Dirk for, making up the 10 point deficit that running that lineup would get? How many posts at the end of the 3rd said it looked like it could turn into a 20 point game in flash? He ran out the worst possible lineup to protect against that. Dirk might not have been part of the best potential lineup at that moment, but any lineup with him would have given us a better chance than the one that was run out there.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Par for the course. Nobody can make a pretty good player look absolutely awesome like the Mavs.

Yep. That's been going on well before we made it to the Finals. Average players turn into stars against us. Our defense has been pathetic for 9 years now. Which is why we won't have a title to show for these great regular seasons and Dirk in his prime.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

well, without Josh, guess what?
What are you saving Dirk for, making up the 10 point deficit that running that lineup would get? How many posts at the end of the 3rd said it looked like it could turn into a 20 point game in flash? He ran out the worst possible lineup to protect against that. Dirk might not have been part of the best potential lineup at that moment, but any lineup with him would have given us a better chance than the one that was run out there.

Right, but as I noted above, it sounds like we're only defending Carlisle's decision to sit Dirk.

If your beef is simply that the lineup he put out there, sans Dirk and Josh, was not the best one he could have mustered, I've got no problems there. I'm still not sure what the optimal lineup would have been, but I'm certain not gonna claim that was the best one.

Blackspider972 · 05-06-2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I wonder how many players within the past 5-7 years have gotten their career highs vs the Mavs? I'm not talking the Kobe or Lebron's of the world...the middle tier guys.

Good question. I'm assuming quite a bit. It's frustrating to watch.

Biggest example yet: Golden State, especially Baron Davis. That team if you never watched basketball before, would have thought Golden State was one of the best teams in the NBA. What did they do after playing us? Not a damn thing. What has Baron Davis did since? Nothing.

If you want to get a big payout or get paid more than you are worth next season, come play us in the playoffs.

tremaine · 05-06-2009, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ray_sir_6

Please tell me that was sarcasm. Even the announcers are pointing out the blatantly bad calls.

"I could hear that foul from here." when they stole the ball from Terry (this was when they were either tied or within 2pts, so BIG SWAY in momentum courtesy of the refs)

"He made tons of contact, pushed the defender 6ft away." when Carmelo rammed Wright out of the way and then they T'd up the Mavs coach for complaining.

"I see why Dirk is upset, that was clearing off the Nuggets" when the refs screwed yet another call.

The refs can control the flow of the game with their calls, and they were making the 4th quater impossible for the Mavs to get going.

Oh, and the charge Damp took in the first half on the fast break wasn't in the protected area. He had both feet in front of it until he was contacted and he put his foot back where his heel was bearing on the line. It's a tit-tat call, but one I rewatched a few times, cause it looked to me that he was well out of the blocking circle....and he was.

I wish there would be more fairness in the calls the refs are making. I was thinking it was going well until the 4th started, and they weren't calling anything on Denver, but the Mavs seemed to be getting called on tit-tat fouls that wouldn't have been called earlier. Like Dampier getting a block on the baseline that they called a foul. It was a bad camera angle, but it didn't show any body contact, and if Damp got part of the hand, is was barely his pinkie, and 99% ball.

All very true.

The refs were horrible in game 1 and merely bad in game 2. In game 2 they were better than game 1, but don't be fooled, they were still bad in game 2. Deserving special mention is that the touch fouls against Dallas have been out of control in this series.

CadBane · 05-06-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm sorry, what was that? I was too busy reading Dostoyevsky.

I do enjoy the childish name-calling. It feels oh so good to know I'm so firmly implanted in your skull.

I have no idea why he chose that particular line-up. For the record, I'm only defending Carlisle's decision to sit Dirk. I'm not defending the line-up he used more broadly than that.

I do tend to agree that going without a Center for so long is incredibly suspect. Also, I thought Terry had played almost the entire game once Howard went out, but you really probably need to keep him out there for those two minutes.

No. You made an incorrect statement, I called you out. Don't try to squirm out of it. And I ask just again (since you ignored it a few days ago), do you still think I'm stupid for thinking Denver's bench is better than the Mavs?? Hmm?

Usually Lurkin · 05-06-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Right, but as I noted above, it sounds like we're only defending Carlisle's decision to sit Dirk.

If your beef is simply that the lineup he put out there, sans Dirk and Josh, was not the best one he could have mustered, I've got no problems there. I'm still not sure what the optimal lineup would have been, but I'm certain not gonna claim that was the best one.

I personally would rather have seen Dirk produce for the first few minutes of the quarter, then completely disappear from exhaustion than to watch him come back in after the scrubs completely lose control of the game, only to do pretty much nothing anyway.

Would I have much rather seen Dampier pick up his final foul 2 minutes into the 4th by busting Nene in the chops? Yeah. But we watched 12 minutes of Dirk's basketball life get flushed down the toilet rather than watching 6 minutes.

NYMAVGUY · 05-06-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

well, without Josh, guess what?
What are you saving Dirk for, making up the 10 point deficit that running that lineup would get? How many posts at the end of the 3rd said it looked like it could turn into a 20 point game in flash? He ran out the worst possible lineup to protect against that. Dirk might not have been part of the best potential lineup at that moment, but any lineup with him would have given us a better chance than the one that was run out there.

If Bass can't come in for 2 mins and Mavs not go down -10 points, we are not good enough to be there, Dirk or not. I would not have taken out Dirk and Jet at the same time but great players need rest even when their teams are losing, and the bench must sustain. I think we need a better bench. (Jet is only a 6th man by name he gets minutes and if we had a bench would be startings.) One of the reasons we can't get over the hump.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

No. You made an incorrect statement, I called you out. Don't try to squirm out of it. And I ask just again (since you ignored it a few days ago), do you still think I'm stupid for thinking Denver's bench is better than the Mavs?? Hmm?

Mavs Bench: 47 points (not including Gerald Green's 5)
Nuggets Bench: 37 points

Now, could you please stop interrupting me? This Brian Greene book is too good to put down.