Trade Josh Howard!

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Oh you mean the Payton/Malone Lakers?...yeah, that team was the picture of dysfunctional.

KG can guard 3s and 4s Duncan can guard 4s and 5s.

KG is clearly a better passer than Duncan...I'm not sure that has anything to do with "running and jumping", but if you say so.

By the way, you're crazy if you'd think of Duncan the same way...he'd have zero rings and be just another "great guy who can't win" if he was stranded in Minny for the bulk of his career.

You're entitled to your opinion. In my opinion Tim Duncan would have had a significantly better career than KG in Minnesota, because he's a significantly better player.

Comparing the two is like comparing Kobe to TMac.

[dirno2000]

its funny what David Robinson can do...

Like Thig said, he wasn’t the old Robinson by the time they won a title. This numbers he put up in 99’ were slightly better than what Ilgauskas produced for Cleveland this year. He was a nice player but not a HOF’r. By 03’ he wasn’t even averaging a double-double.

For the record, nobody is trying to say that hasn’t had talent around him. Just that he’s had less superstar talent than other players who have won titles.

What is your point here? That coaching doesn't make a difference? Because that is what it sounds like....which can't be your point. To undermine what Pop has done is ridiculous.

Coaching doesn’t make nearly as much of a difference as that talent that you have on the floor. The NBA is not a coaches league.

I’ll give Pop credit for being smart enough to cut Bob Hill off at the knees when Tim Duncan arrived and for not screwing it up after that. Beyond that, lets see what he does when Duncan retires.

If coaching was as important as you think, and if Pop is great and Avery is incompetent, there’s no way Avery could have beat him in a series. There wasn't a huge talent gap if there was one at all.

I agree that players bring much to the table, But I think post players (big men) need a system more than 2 guards who control the ball. Duncan has been blessed with a coach wise enough to play him in just the right way. But you're right about players being the key...and Duncan has played with some great ones..from DRob to now days with Manu and Parker...Duncan has played with some of the best. Good for him. I don't hold it against him. But it needs to be mentioned that he has been placed in just the right spot for him...take Duncan out of this system and away form this team and roster and its my contention that he is just another "very, very good" 20/10 guy.

Again, Robinson was never great when they won championships. I wouldn’t call Parker great right now. Manu played at an extremely high level this year. If he can keep it up he may achieve greatness.

So he is the best player because he has been on the best defensive team? He is the "best" player because he has been the most important player on his team? Sounds like the "Best vs. Most Valuable" debate to me...and personally, I think the best player....is the one with the best overall skill-set. Not the best player on the best team. Which sounds like what you're describing.

No, he’s the best because he’s the main reason the Spurs have been one of the best defensive teams.

You're right, they broke away from their "system" and got beat by a worthy opponent. Duncan was wonderful in that series...but I guess not great enough?

Without Duncan there is no “system”.

Or how about this angle: Since Bowen locks down his man on just about every play, Duncan can basically write Bowen's man off most nights?

Shut down defenders are like shutdown corners. They don’t exist. People get by Bowen all the time. He’s a great defender but he doesn’t take his man out of the game on a nightly basis.

Seems to me that the PER is one of the most misused and misunderstood stats in the game. Unless we really think Manu is slightly better than Kobe...and Chris Bosh is only slightly behind him. It is an interesting stat, but worthless for this conversation.

Why does PER have no place in this discussion? Why would you want to throw out efficiency ratings when discussing the merits of one player vs. another?

Again, I’m not saying that it’s the perfect player rating tool because that doesn’t exist. That being said year in and year out it tracks pretty well with the best players in the game and the players having great seasons. The undisputed best player in the game should rank higher than 8th. He doesn’t necessarily have to be 1st but he shouldn’t be 8th.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

You're entitled to your opinion. In my opinion Tim Duncan would have had a significantly better career than KG in Minnesota, because he's a significantly better player.

Comparing the two is like comparing Kobe to TMac.

This is post I can get on board with...I have no problem with saying the two are different. But I would bet the lives of your first 3 kids that Timmy doesn't win any rings in Minny...even if he is overall better than KG. The supporting cast in Minny just isn't good enough. My point has never been that Duncan isn't great, but that he has been amazingly fortunate in his career to always have one of the best coaches, systems, and cast of supporting guys around him...for example, Dirk has never been as fortunate. But we are entitled to disagree on something so subjective.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

He’s a great defender but he doesn’t take his man out of the game on a nightly basis.

well this is a drastic "change of tune" from "good defender" that you were talking about earlier.

He doesn’t necessarily have to be 1st but he shouldn’t be 8th.

Because I know that Manu and Chris Bosh are not close to the player Kobe Bryant is night in and night out. Because I know that when it comes to overall basketball ability, there is only one player in the league even close to as good as Kobe...and that is LaBron James. I don't like the PER because I don't agree that it identifies the best players and then places them in an improper order...without sounding like too much of an arrogant jerk, I don't like the PER because I disagree with it's results.

Why do you find it so easy to ignore the opinions of the Many greats of the game that say without any hesitation that Kobe is the best player around today? I personally feel this gets overlooked because we hate Kobe...and it obviously is a point in my comments that both thiggy and dirno have not addressed.

the rest of dirno's post deserves comment...but we are just rehashing at this point...I would still contended that comments like, "No, he’s the best because he’s the main reason the Spurs have been one of the best defensive teams." sound like a most valuable vs. best player argument. Why not just that Timmy has made them the best defensive team because he is the best defensive player in the league? I think its because he has always had a LOT of defensive help in making the Spurs what they have been. A coach that fixes on D and players who can play lights out D around him...no question that Duncan is the most important/best player on the Spurs and the primary reason they succeed. But he is not the exclusive reason they have done so. They play wonderful team defense. Why take anything away from the rest of Duncan's exceptional defensive cast?

[BGMaverick9]

Man...this thread has SERIOUSLY been hijacked.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Man...this thread has SERIOUSLY been hijacked.

Yeah, so I think they should trade Josh for Ron Artest if at all possible...

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

I can't believe people actually think KG is better than TD. That is an absolutely hilarious joke if I've ever heard one. There's a reason why he only got out of the first round once before this year, KG is great during the regular season but he's a mental midget during the playoffs. Just look at the Celtics during the playoffs this year their MVP has clearly been Paul Pierce and not KG. Anyone who disagrees has not been watching the Celtics playoff run.


P.S. trade J-Ho for Mike Miller.

[alby]

without Artest or Maggette, J-Ho > Mike Miller.

[craggmac]

Originally Posted by sike

Yeah, so I think they should trade Josh for Ron Artest if at all possible...

So you would take Ron Artest over Shawn Marion? I was just wondering, because you questioned my trade proposal of Howard for Marion earlier in the thread. Not trying to start any beef, just curious.

[sike]

Originally Posted by craggmac

So you would take Ron Artest over Shawn Marion? I was just wondering, because you questioned my trade proposal of Howard for Marion earlier in the thread. Not trying to start any beef, just curious.

I'd be in favor of Marion...just dont see it happening.

I also don't know who I'd choose between Artest and Marion....

[sike]

I know they play mind games....but Pop is a pretty honest guy and he just flatly said, "Kobe is the greatest player on the planet..."

I'm no mind reader, but he sure didn't seem to be playing mind games when he said it.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I'd be in favor of Marion...just dont see it happening.

I also don't know who I'd choose between Artest and Marion....

Marion, but Artest is more realistic (kinda...)

[ghazi]

maggette/redd plz, miles/diop plz


SOMETHIN PLEASE OMG IM SO SCARED

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Marion, but Artest is more realistic (kinda...)

Marion and Artest are both great defenders, but they do it in very different ways...I, too, think I might choose Marion...but I'm not sure.

[jthig32]

Between Marion and Artest you'd have to take Marion based on stability alone, I think. Marion's no saint, but he's not crazy.

Judging them based soley as players it's a little harder. I think Artest is a superior defender but Marion's a better rebounder and less likely to kill you by deciding to play offense by himself.

[kappasigma]

josh will have a great year next year. he'll have something to proove. he's been smoking since high school, its just now public. he also had a few deaths in his family this year. this was just a bad year for him. don't judge on smoking, cause majority of the players do, including guys like don nelson (still smoking) & mark cuban (not anymore)

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Marion's a better rebounder and less likely to kill you by deciding to play offense by himself.

everyone talks about Artest's mental fragility as the main strike against him...I don't fear that much at all...but thiggy, you just pointed out my only real fear. Deciding to take over the ball is a terrible trait, as we've been learning with Josh, and Marion isn't a good enough shooter or shot creator to fall into that bad habit.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

everyone talks about Artest's mental fragility as the main strike against him...I don't fear that much at all...but thiggy, you just pointed out my only real fear. Deciding to take over the ball is a terrible trait, as we've been learning with Josh, and Marion isn't a good enough shooter or shot creator to fall into that bad habit.

Yup.

If we could hypnotize Artest into playing within himself I would take Artest, because I think he's better at creating his own shot.

But we've all seen him decide he's going to take over a game and then kill his team with missed shots and turnovers.

I think think this is all moot anyway, because after hearing Skin and Followill this past Saturday, I don't think Josh is going anywhere unless someone offers them a no brainer deal.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yup.

If we could hypnotize Artest into playing within himself I would take Artest, because I think he's better at creating his own shot.

No doubt about Artest's creative ability...I love how he attacks the rim as well..which is another thing he does better than Marion.

I think think this is all moot anyway, because after hearing Skin and Followill this past Saturday, I don't think Josh is going anywhere unless someone offers them a no brainer deal.

I missed it...anything else from what must have been a hoop-centric show that would be interesting to know?

As an aside, I wonder if I've been misreading Carlisle's intentions....he seemed (to me at least) to be insinuating that a move of some magnitude was coming this off season...If they are settled on not moving Josh, that move just isn't happening.

[jthig32]

I missed most of it as well. I only caught the final segment or so, and they were basically discussing Josh.

I really wish the Ticket would promote something like that better. I would have made a point to catch a two hour show of Skin and Followill talking Mavs.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sike

As an aside, I wonder if I've been misreading Carlisle's intentions....he seemed (to me at least) to be insinuating that a move of some magnitude was coming this off season...If they are settled on not moving Josh, that move just isn't happening.

I was saying from the get-go that it didnt sound like this to me at all. Maybe we'll drop Stack, and I'm sure if the right trade for Terry/Howard came along they'd look closely at it, but I didn't hear anything from Carlisle that made me think he was looking for significant shake-ups with our remaining guys on contract.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I really wish the Ticket would promote something like that better. I would have made a point to catch a two hour show of Skin and Followill talking Mavs.

absolutely no doubt.

[sike]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I was saying from the get-go that it didnt sound like this to me at all. Maybe we'll drop Stack, and I'm sure if the right trade for Terry/Howard came along they'd look closely at it, but I didn't hear anything from Carlisle that made me think he was looking for significant shake-ups with our remaining guys on contract.

Yes that's true....but I'm usually correct more often than you.

I'll wait and see before anointing PDub as right on that little disagreement of ours.

[alby]

With Artest coming in at half the price as Marion, I go with Artest.

[sike]

Originally Posted by alby

With Artest coming in at half the price as Marion, I go with Artest.

I was thinking that as well...I don't care about Cuban's money...but I want them to be able to fill every hole possible.

[ddh33]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I missed most of it as well. I only caught the final segment or so, and they were basically discussing Josh.

I really wish the Ticket would promote something like that better. I would have made a point to catch a two hour show of Skin and Followill talking Mavs.

So Mark and Skin both thought that Josh was staying?

[Thespiralgoeson]

Honestly I'll be surprised if Josh isn't back next year. The only scenario I see where we get better by trading Josh is if we do another trade to fill in the other hole in our starting lineup, like Maggette/Redd scenario. Unless we're really getting some bang for our buck, it's not worth trading him.

[dude1394]

This was funny...

Josh Howard has a new friend.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Is it you Krusty?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by ddh33

So Mark and Skin both thought that Josh was staying?

They both said that everyone they have talked to within the Mavs organization says the same thing. That being that the Mavs still 100% believe in Josh, and believe he is part of the solution here. They said that they think they know when the team is saying that just to keep trade value high, and they don't believe that is case in this situation.

They both said the only way Josh is traded is if someone offers them a slam dunk no brainer of a deal.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

They both said the only way Josh is traded is if someone offers them a slam dunk no brainer of a deal.

I agree with this now...

After listening to the details of the Avery drama for the past couple weeks, I'm fairly certain that his "system" (ego) was responsible for the drop-off in several of our players' performances - I see no reason why Carlisle couldn't make Josh an all-star again (hell, we even might find out that Eddie Jones, Tyronn Lue and Jamaal Magloire actually have something left in the tank!)

If we give Josh up, it has to be for an impact player like Shawn Marion, Elton Brand or Ron Artest...

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I agree with this now...

After listening to the details of the Avery drama for the past couple weeks, I'm fairly certain that his "system" (ego) was responsible for the drop-off in several of our players' performances - I see no reason why Carlisle couldn't make Josh an all-star again (hell, we even might find out that Eddie Jones, Tyronn Lue and Jamaal Magloire actually have something left in the tank!)

If we give Josh up, it has to be for an impact player like Shawn Marion, Elton Brand or Ron Artest...

Great post, Underdog.
I think I'm the first member (other than Underdog) to say that sentence.

[ddh33]

Not too long ago I said that I thought there was a great chance that Josh was viewed by the Mavs as the best option for this team.

Basically, you need a second star on this team. That guy needs to have a diversified game. He needs to be able to run the floor and slash. He needs to be able to hit open shots. He needs to be able to create for himself off the dribble at times. But he also needs to defend.

Now, most of the names that have been thrown around are lacking in some of those areas. I don't know if the Mavs can afford to lose Josh for guys who are going to create as many holes as they fill.

Having said that, if Josh is going to play like he did towards the end of the season, just about any of those guys will be upgrades. But I really do believe there was more to what was happening than Josh just playing bad. Something else happened, and I don't have a clue what it was. But Josh almost looked like he was lashing out - especially at Avery. It looked like blatant rebellion...

But guys who can do everything that Josh Howard does as well as he can do it are kind of hard to find. Remember, this is a guy who was going for almost 30 and 10 every night that Dirk was out while playing good defense...

If he's on the team next year, I get it. If he's not, I think I get that too. So who really knows what will happen?

[sike]

Originally Posted by ddh33

Basically, you need a second star on this team. That guy needs to have a diversified game. He needs to be able to run the floor and slash. He needs to be able to hit open shots. He needs to be able to create for himself off the dribble at times. But he also needs to defend.

I guess he doesn't need to be able to pass? Oh, and the dribbling even "at times" will always be rough with Josh.

[ddh33]

I don't want Josh initiating the offense or anything, but he can handle the ball and create for himself. Creating for others will always be an issue with him, but then, you got Kidd for a reason. Kidd creates for others. Dirk, by his sheer presence alone, creates for others. Even Jet, assuming he's still here, can create for others.

Still, I can easily see Josh being a better fit for this team than some of the others guys mentioned. And like I said, I can see those other guys offering something different too. Either way, I'm willing to defer to management because they have seen all of this first hand, and they know more of what happened than I do.

[sike]

Originally Posted by ddh33

I don't want Josh initiating the offense or anything, but he can handle the ball and create for himself. Creating for others will always be an issue with him, but then, you got Kidd for a reason. Kidd creates for others. Dirk, by his sheer presence alone, creates for others. Even Jet, assuming he's still here, can create for others.

Still, I can easily see Josh being a better fit for this team than some of the others guys mentioned. And like I said, I can see those other guys offering something different too. Either way, I'm willing to defer to management because they have seen all of this first hand, and they know more of what happened than I do.

all things being equal, who do you take, Artest or JHo?

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by ddh33

Not too long ago I said that I thought there was a great chance that Josh was viewed by the Mavs as the best option for this team.

Basically, you need a second star on this team. That guy needs to have a diversified game. He needs to be able to run the floor and slash. He needs to be able to hit open shots. He needs to be able to create for himself off the dribble at times. But he also needs to defend.

Now, most of the names that have been thrown around are lacking in some of those areas. I don't know if the Mavs can afford to lose Josh for guys who are going to create as many holes as they fill.

Having said that, if Josh is going to play like he did towards the end of the season, just about any of those guys will be upgrades. But I really do believe there was more to what was happening than Josh just playing bad. Something else happened, and I don't have a clue what it was. But Josh almost looked like he was lashing out - especially at Avery. It looked like blatant rebellion...

But guys who can do everything that Josh Howard does as well as he can do it are kind of hard to find. Remember, this is a guy who was going for almost 30 and 10 every night that Dirk was out while playing good defense...

If he's on the team next year, I get it. If he's not, I think I get that too. So who really knows what will happen?

You know I once started a thread about this same issue, Josh is just too good to play that poorly vs the Whorenets. If he was having a shooting slump its understandable but some of the shots, the turnovers, the attitude all made me think that Josh was doing some of this on purpose. I think Josh had every right to be angry because his buddy was traded(I'm still angry now) but when he chose to act and play like that because of that issue shows me he should be traded. What happens if Carlislie pisses Josh off then? More turnovers? Stupid dribbling? Shooting 30%? More foolish confessions? Josh should be traded. Just my two cents

[dude1394]

all things being equal, who do you take, Artest or JHo?

Josh...

[sike]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

You know I once started a thread about this same issue, Josh is just too good to play that poorly vs the Whorenets. If he was having a shooting slump its understandable but some of the shots, the turnovers, the attitude all made me think that Josh was doing some of this on purpose. I think Josh had every right to be angry because his buddy was traded(I'm still angry now) but when he chose to act and play like that because of that issue shows me he should be traded. What happens if Carlislie pisses Josh off then? More turnovers? Stupid dribbling? Shooting 30%? More foolish confessions? Josh should be traded. Just my two cents

I don't think any player misses shots on purpose...but I do think he stopped trying as hard to do the little things and settled for the easy shots far too often.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Josh...

this is in response to my question?