Cuban is scaring with this Kidd stuff

[Blonde Bomber]

you don't have to miss games to see that a player is noticeably worn down or playing through nagging injuries because of Nash's play of helter skelter.

But that's how Nash has to play to be effective and when he's playing tired he really hurts the team more than helps. But don't get me wrong, I would rather have Nash then most of the pg's in the league just not Kidd.

And why is it that it's a BIG risk to bring Kidd here? I really don't see how this would disrupt our offense.
He plays just like Nash but more in control.

[MFFL]

Originally posted by: Blonde Bomber
I'm just blown away that the majority of people in this forum would rather keep Nash than have Kidd.

Not me - I would prefer to have Kidd over Nash any day. Kidd is one of the top 5 players in the league while Nash is >maybe< top 15 (probably in the 16-20 range). I have trouble understanding how Nash only plays 32-34 minutes per game and yet he is considered an elite PG.

We don't need another scorer - we are OK in that department. We need to improve our defense and rebounding. Kidd is superior to Nash in those areas. We have to make tradeoffs. Keeping Nash (perhaps the worst defender on the team) means we cannot improve in any real sense because we are continuing the tradition of having three below average defenders in our starting lineup. And I don't think Kidd will shoot the ball as much - in Phoenix and Jersey he was the #1 threat, here he will be at most #2 (#3 or #4 some nights if we acquire Mourning and Malone to go along with Finley and Dirk). I think he will be happy being the distributor extraordinare.

Nash is the most tradeable commodity on the team.

[Murphy3]

Kidd, top 5 player in the league? not a chance.

and no way the mavs survive with both NVE and Kidd..too much bad shooting.

the mavs would go from being one of the top shooting teams in the league to run of the mill really quickly

[MFFL]

Certainly higher ranked than Nash.

More Kidd highlights

Named First Team All-NBA four consecutive seasons (1998-99, 1999-2000, 2000-01and 2001-02).
Named First Team All-Defensive three times (1998-99, 2000-01, 2001-02) and to the second team in 1999-2000.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Kidd, top 5 player in the league? not a chance.

and no way the mavs survive with both NVE and Kidd..too much bad shooting.

the mavs would go from being one of the top shooting teams in the league to run of the mill really quickly

Kidd is forced to shoot. He is there best player and they depend on him in critical times to make baskets for them. Here he won't have to do that. All he needs is to hit his spot up jumpers which he is capable of doing.

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Garnett
Kidd???
I have no problem with saying Kidd is a top 5 player in this league. HE is certainly the best pg no question.

[MFFL]

Still more.

Became the sixth fastest NBA player to record 5000 career assists (531 games), as he finished with three points, 15 assists and eight rebounds in 44 minutes at Dallas on 1/21/2002

Set the Nets all-time single season triple-double mark (8), and in doing so, became the Nets all-time leader in triple-doubles

Set the Nets all-time single season assist mark by recording 808 assists

Ranked 2nd in the NBA in assists (9.9 apg), 3rd in steals (2.13 spg) and ranked 4th in double-doubles (44) in 2001-02

Topped 700 assists and 500 rebounds in the same season for the second time in 1997-98, joining Robertson and Magic Johnson (six times each) as the only players in NBA history to do so more than once

Established a Mavericks' single-game franchise record with a career-high 25 assists against the Jazz on

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: MFFL
Still more.

Became the sixth fastest NBA player to record 5000 career assists (531 games), as he finished with three points, 15 assists and eight rebounds in 44 minutes at Dallas on 1/21/2002

Set the Nets all-time single season triple-double mark (8), and in doing so, became the Nets all-time leader in triple-doubles

Set the Nets all-time single season assist mark by recording 808 assists

Ranked 2nd in the NBA in assists (9.9 apg), 3rd in steals (2.13 spg) and ranked 4th in double-doubles (44) in 2001-02

Topped 700 assists and 500 rebounds in the same season for the second time in 1997-98, joining Robertson and Magic Johnson (six times each) as the only players in NBA history to do so more than once

Established a Mavericks' single-game franchise record with a career-high 25 assists against the Jazz on

You gotta love that Magic and Robertson stat. That stat would help the Mavs tremendously.

[Chicago JK]

00
Established a Mavericks' single-game franchise record with a career-high 25 assists against the Jazz on[/quote]

Does anyone remember this game...that was great!!

I also remember his first game where he almost got a triple double. I remember people saying that he would struggle his first year. Well that first game shut up a lot of people.

Despite not having a winning record that year....that team was a blast to watch.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: MFFL
Still more.

Became the sixth fastest NBA player to record 5000 career assists (531 games), as he finished with three points, 15 assists and eight rebounds in 44 minutes at Dallas on 1/21/2002

Set the Nets all-time single season triple-double mark (8), and in doing so, became the Nets all-time leader in triple-doubles

Set the Nets all-time single season assist mark by recording 808 assists

Ranked 2nd in the NBA in assists (9.9 apg), 3rd in steals (2.13 spg) and ranked 4th in double-doubles (44) in 2001-02

Topped 700 assists and 500 rebounds in the same season for the second time in 1997-98, joining Robertson and Magic Johnson (six times each) as the only players in NBA history to do so more than once

Established a Mavericks' single-game franchise record with a career-high 25 assists against the Jazz on

If someone wanted to kill some time they could list all of Nash's accomplishments and awards, but what would be the point? Everyone knows Jason Kidd is a great point guard. But we already have a great point guard who is an absolute perfect fit for this group of guys. Why mess with it? Kidd is a year older, a bad shooter, was basically thrown out of Dallas in his first stint and in the interim has faced wife beating charges. Why mess with our strongest position for all of that? We already have a guy who is coming off back to back NBA All Third team selections, and is considered by many (including myself) to be the second best point guard in the league.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Chicago JK
Kidd is the far superior defensive player, playmaker, and rebounder. Not much debate there.

Actually, there is some debate regarding his man-to-man defensive abilities. No one questions that Nash is a poor man-to-man defender, but to claim that Kidd is a great one is, well, inaccurate. More on this below.

As for his playmaking ability, I think I conceded that Kidd was the better passer. But it's not like Nash is exactly chopped liver. Kidd puts up 8.9 assists per game compared to Nash's 7.3 And Kidd takes a lot more chances than he should, averaging 3.7 TOs per game compared to Nash's 2.3. That gives Kidd an assist-to-turnover ratio of 2.4, as compared with Nash's outstanding ratio of 3.2. Given that, I don't think Kidd exactly dominates Nash in this area.

As for rebounding, there's no question that Kidd is a much better rebounder.

I am one of the biggest Nash homers too, but Kidd is the better player by a good margin. Kidd would open up so many more open looks for Dirk and Fin it would be ridiculous. Nash does a very good job at this, but he is not the playmaker as kidd.

Or perhaps teams will leave Kidd and double Dirk and Finley. Will Kidd be able to make them pay?

Kidd will have 4-15 games, no doubt. Although when Nash has these games, he isn't very useful on the floor. As we witnessed when Kidd was a Mav, Jason will still make 3-4 big non scoring plays that will change a game.

Kidd's an outstanding player. No doubt about that. But that doesn't address whether he's a better fit for this team.

I am sorry to KG....Kidd is an excellent man on man defender.

I've always thought that Kidd's man-to-man defense was overrated. He wasn't a great man-to-man defender even as a young player here in Dallas, but his man-to-man defense has definitely gone downhill as he's gotten older.

Did you watch him against Tony Parker in the Finals? Parker got around Kidd whenever he wanted to. Sounds just like Nash to me. I'll agree that Kidd is stronger and better equipped to guard shooting guards or bigger point guards, but that's about it. Kidd's a great gambler in the passing lanes, but staying in front of his man, well, that's another thing altogether.

Just imagine adding Kidd, Mourning and Josh Howard. All three of those guys are excellent defenders and rebounders. Howard is a question mark due to never playing in the pros. So you would get remarkably stronger on defense and rebounding without losing any offense with Kidd running the show. It would be fun to watch. Probably won't happen, but we can dream.

Most of the defense under that scenario is added with or without Kidd. Also, I just don't agree that the team would be better offensively with Kidd than Nash. In Nellie's offense, you have to be able to shoot. Kidd can't.

[Murphy3]

I think Kidd is the better PG..
but, to say that he's a bad shooter because he's forced to shoot? Well, that makes little sense. He's been a bad shooter his entire career. There's a bit of a trend with that bad shooting thing..maybe kidd is just in a decade long funk.

Would I like Kidd as a Mav? Possibly. Would I want to trade Nash for Kidd straight up? Possibly. However, certain other trades must occur...one of them would be NVE being shipped out to beef up our front line or the 3 spot.

[MFFL]

Originally posted by: Hitman
If someone wanted to kill some time they could list all of Nash's accomplishments and awards.

Here they are - direct from NBA.com

+++

Two-time NBA All-Star (2002, 2003)

2002 All-NBA Third Team

Ranked 17th in the NBA in three-point field-goal percentage with .403 in 1999-2000.

Led the Suns in 1997-98, and ranked 13th in the NBA, in three-point percentage (.415)

Finished third, with Michele Timms of the WNBA's Phoenix Mercury, in the inaugural Nestle Crunch All-Star 2ball during All-Star Saturday

Participated in the Schick Rookie Game during the 1997 NBA All-Star Weekend in Cleveland
Posted rookie season-highs of 17 points, 12 assists and 7 rebounds, in his first career NBA start and his British Columbia homecoming, against the Vancouver Grizzlies on 11/14/96

Named West Coast Conference Player of the Year in 1995 and 1996

[kg_veteran]

you don't have to miss games to see that a player is noticeably worn down or playing through nagging injuries because of Nash's play of helter skelter.

But that's how Nash has to play to be effective and when he's playing tired he really hurts the team more than helps. But don't get me wrong, I would rather have Nash then most of the pg's in the league just not Kidd.

And why is it that it's a BIG risk to bring Kidd here? I really don't see how this would disrupt our offense.
He plays just like Nash but more in control.

I didn't notice any fatigue from Nash this year in the playoffs, which is when it really matters.

It's a big risk to bring Kidd in, because you're disrupting the core of a team that did pretty damn well last year. You're gambling that Kidd will just fit right in.

It >>could<< disrupt the offense because Kidd can't shoot, and in this offense, you have to be able to shoot.

As for the "more in control" comment, I think my post above demonstrates that Kidd doesn't play that way. He actually turns the ball over far more often than Nash.

[Hitman]

Finished third, with Michele Timms of the WNBA's Phoenix Mercury, in the inaugural Nestle Crunch All-Star 2ball during All-Star Saturday

'Nuff said.

[Murphy3]

there's two obvious areas in which kidd trounces nash..
1.rebounding
2.defense


nash obviously destroys kidd in any area that relates to shooting

Kidd has had a bit better health..appears to be less fragile
However, by NBA standards, nash isn't really a fragile player. Last time I checked, he plays 30+ minutes a game in almost every game..game in, game out.

Nash is already a part of this team's core...kidd might be a perfect fit.
Nash is definitely a good guy in the locker room.. kidd has had more than his share of issues with players, coaches, and off the court..

[kg_veteran]

Not me - I would prefer to have Kidd over Nash any day. Kidd is one of the top 5 players in the league while Nash is >maybe< top 15 (probably in the 16-20 range). I have trouble understanding how Nash only plays 32-34 minutes per game and yet he is considered an elite PG.

I see Nash as Top 15 and Kidd as Top 10, but that's such a subjective thing, it's not worth arguing about. That said, even if you add a better player on paper, that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good move.

Also, what does minutes per game have to do with elite status? Name a PG other than Kidd better than Nash.

We don't need another scorer - we are OK in that department. We need to improve our defense and rebounding. Kidd is superior to Nash in those areas. We have to make tradeoffs. Keeping Nash (perhaps the worst defender on the team) means we cannot improve in any real sense because we are continuing the tradition of having three below average defenders in our starting lineup.

We're okay in that department in large part because of Nash. If you dump Nash for Kidd, you have a backcourt rotation of Kidd, NVE, and Finley. Perhaps Fin will rebound to his traditional mid 40s shooting %, but last year he was at about 43%. That's a lot of misses when you combine Fin's shots with NVE and Kidd hoping to hit 40% each.

As for defense, I don't see how adding Kidd improves man-to-man defense. Team defense? Sure. But Kidd can't stop top PGs any more than Nash can.

Also, Kidd's a great rebounder, but you still have to have rebounding from the frontcourt to be a good rebounding team.

And I don't think Kidd will shoot the ball as much - in Phoenix and Jersey he was the #1 threat, here he will be at most #2 (#3 or #4 some nights if we acquire Mourning and Malone to go along with Finley and Dirk). I think he will be happy being the distributor extraordinare.

Kidd still has to be able to hit the open shot when Dirk, Finley, and whoever else get doubled. Can he do that consistently?

Nash is the most tradeable commodity on the team.

Can't disagree with this.

[kg_veteran]

I think Kidd is the better PG..
but, to say that he's a bad shooter because he's forced to shoot? Well, that makes little sense. He's been a bad shooter his entire career. There's a bit of a trend with that bad shooting thing..maybe kidd is just in a decade long funk.

Would I like Kidd as a Mav? Possibly. Would I want to trade Nash for Kidd straight up? Possibly. However, certain other trades must occur...one of them would be NVE being shipped out to beef up our front line or the 3 spot.

I definitely agree with this. If you trade Nash for Kidd, you have to move NVE for a variety of reasons.

Also, this hasn't really been discussed yet, but we all know it won't be a Nash for Kidd deal straight up, because Nash doesn't make enough money. Are you willing to take on the undesirable contracts the Nets may have to make this deal work?

In other words, are you willing to take on Mutombo and whatever other albatross the Nets drape around our collective necks?

[MFFL]

[quote]
Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I didn't notice any fatigue from Nash this year in the playoffs, which is when it really matters.

Nash averaged 17.7 pts in the regular season and 16.1 in the playoffs.
Nash averaged 1.04 steals in the regular season and .85 in the playoffs.
Nash shot 46.5% in the regular season and 44.7% in the playoffs.
Nash averaged 7.3 assists in the regular season and the same in the playoffs. BUT he played an an additional 3 minutes per game in the playoffs.

Kidd averaged 18.7 pts in the regular season and 20.1 in the playoffs.
Kidd averaged 6.3 rebounds in the regular season and 7.7 in the playoffs.
Kidd's shooting percentage did go down but that was because of a terrible Finals. Before then he was shooting 42.3% which is slightly better than the 41.4% he shot in the regular season.

[kg_veteran]

The stats you quoted >>could<< support an argument that Nash was fatigued, I suppose. They could also, however, just as easily support an argument that the defense is simply better in the playoffs.

Kidd's steals were down in the playoffs, too. That doesn't mean Kidd was fatigued -- it just means he didn't get as many steals.

[Murphy3]

one thing to factor in...the nets were playing against far inferior competition in the east compared to what the mavs were up against.... surely that has to affect the numbers as well

[kg_veteran]

As far as the East-West comparison, I think it's worthwhile to point out that Kidd never made it past the second round in Phoenix in spite of having teams that were more talented than the Nets team that has been to the Finals in the East the last two years. If he's a Top 5 guy, he oughtta be able to get his team to the conference finals once, eh?

[Doubleouts]

The thing about it is we're used to winning now and want to stick with the guy that helped get us there. Nash is a unique pg that every team wish they had. Id rather add to the team than make any changes. But that's in a perfect world.

[Murphy3]

i don't give a rats ass about sticking with the guys that got the mavs where they are..sure, you will have to keep some of them..and sure, it makes perfect sense to stick with some of them.

however, when it comes to making the team better, you make the team better..if it means trading nash, it means trading nash.

but as i've talked about above, it depends on certain other situations as to whether or not nash for kidd is a smart deal

[seelenjaeger]

Let´s say it this way:

Let´s assume we sign Malone.

If it´s Nash and fillers (TaW, AJ?) for Kidd and Lucious Harris, I won´t bite.

If it´s Nash and Raef for Kidd and KMart, count me in.

It´s a matter of the deal, and Kidd for Nash isn´t increasing our possibilities too much. But we can try to go for it, if we can adress another need.

[Murphy3]

not in a million years would you get kidd and kmart

[kg_veteran]

Why in the world would New Jersey give up Martin? And for Raef?