Cuban is scaring with this Kidd stuff - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Hitman · 07-02-2003, 10:51 AM

I really don't understand what Cuban is doing with this courting of Jason Kidd. He calls Kidd at 12:01 on July 1? Why wasn't he calling Jermaine O'Neal or Zo or an inside presence?

This comes from the Basketball News' Chat on ESPN yesterday and sums up how I feel...

Andy (New Orleans): ANSWER!! I agree that the Mavs need Zo, but why would they aim for Kidd as well, he can't shoot nearly as well as Nash and he only averages an extra assist, is it worth breaking up the chemistry?

Ken Bikoff: Short answer, no. I wouldn't deal Nash for Kidd in any scenario simply because Nash fits that team's needs perfectly. Let's not forget that the Mavs had a pretty successful regular season, and if Nowitzki doesn't go down, the results could have been much different. The Mavs have too much talent at point guard to be serious about Kidd, but I know the team is looking for a shake-up. There just seems to be other areas that could use more work than the point.

Seriously, this guy is right on. The whole charm of the Mavs is that you often have five guys on the floor who can score from anywhere, everyone is a good shooter. JKidd on the Mavs would be one of their worst shooters.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 10:54 AM

cuban is just keeping his options open. he didn't call mourning at 12:01 because he was IN miami. and jo is visiting dallas next week, as is kidd. i think cuban is just looking at all of the options.

TripleDipping · 07-02-2003, 10:57 AM

Taken from an article posted by Blonde Bomber in another thread:

Mourning and Jason Kidd, who also is a free agent, are close friends. The Mavs have just the $4.8 million midlevel exception to offer Mourning, who made $20 million last season with the Heat.

Cuban apparently might try to lure Kidd to Dallas with the promise of Mourning. Because the Mavs are over the salary cap, Cuban would have to execute a sign-and-trade deal for Kidd, exchanging players with Kidd's former team, the New Jersey Nets.

I agree with you that it is a bad idea to trade Nash for Kidd... sounds like too much of a gamble just to get Mourning here. And besides, why the hell would Kidd wanna play here with less pay when he can go to San Antonio for a near max-out if he wants out of Jersey?

seelenjaeger · 07-02-2003, 11:00 AM

We´re not courting J O Neal because ONeal is not a difference maker. Kidd is. Malone and Mourning might be.

Mourning, Malone and Kidd coming if we´re able "just" go give up Nick and Raef (I still don´t buy in losing Nash) is definately making a difference towards last year.

Getting Jermaine for losing Nick and having the MLE to sign ... whoever falls short of any contracts another place ... is not making much of a difference.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:00 AM

would kidd be getting less pay if he played here? i was under the impression that it was more...

Hitman · 07-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

[

And besides, why the hell would Kidd wanna play here with less pay when he can go to San Antonio for a near max-out if he wants out of Jersey?

The only reasons I can think of are the Mavs run and gun offense, and the fact that a title won with the Mavs would be considered "his" championship, while another one won in SA would still be just another for Tim Duncan.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:03 AM

and maybe he wants to redeem himself here?

u2sarajevo · 07-02-2003, 11:06 AM

and also I think he might be interested in repaying New Jersey (via sign and trade) for sticking with him during his tough times? Or is that just romanticizing it?

TripleDipping · 07-02-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mandyahl
would kidd be getting less pay if he played here? i was under the impression that it was more...

If the Mavs are gonna make a deal with Jersey for Kidd, all signs point toward trading Nash (New Jersey won't want Van Exel because they need a playmaker more than a scorer). Unless the Mavs can include someone else to trade to NJ along with Nash (like.... who?), it will be essentially Kidd taking on Nash's salary. Kidd is already a guy who demands max contracts, I just don't see why Kidd would wanna play here.

And no, Hitman, if Mavs do win a title with Kidd here I would say it belongs more to Finley than anyone else.

Simon2 · 07-02-2003, 11:07 AM

I am also confused as to what Cubes is doing with Kidd. This may be sending the wrong message to Nash or NVE. I don't like Kidd because he's not a good shooter plus he's a wife beater. That's part of the charm of the Mavs. They are all good guys.

kg_veteran · 07-02-2003, 11:08 AM

Cuban needs to get his priorities straight.

Murphy3 · 07-02-2003, 11:11 AM

If the mavs win a title,why would it belong to finley more than anyone else? Does it automatically go to the person that has been here the longest?

that's a goofy statement/idea.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:12 AM

tripledipping- there are any number of guys we could add to that trade (taw, avery, esch, etc.) that could get the trade up to max value. i agree, i don't think kidd would come here if it meant less pay, but we could make it work so he would earn just as much as he would in nj and more than he would in san antonio.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:13 AM

Cuban needs to take a vacation or up his dosage in Ritalin. We don't need Kidd here just like San Antonio don't need Kidd. We both have quality PGs. Why spoiled it?

kg_veteran · 07-02-2003, 11:17 AM

I honestly wish the Spurs would acquire Kidd. Of course, I also wish the Mavs would acquire Karl Malone and then, if it's possible, Mourning as icing on the cake rather than the whole enchilada.

TripleDipping · 07-02-2003, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
If the mavs win a title,why would it belong to finley more than anyone else? Does it automatically go to the person that has been here the longest?

that's a goofy statement/idea.

Of course not to the person who's been here the longest, Murphy. Other than longevity there's also loyalty and more importanly, the level of contribution to the team. I don't believe one player deserves a championship more than another player in the same team (as long as he's not a dead weight who's always relegated to garbage minutes), but since Hitman said that Kidd would have "his own" championship if he does win one here, I had to strongly disagree.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I honestly wish the Spurs would acquire Kidd. Of course, I also wish the Mavs would acquire Karl Malone and then, if it's possible, Mourning as icing on the cake rather than the whole enchilada.

Same here. An Oneal/Duncan combo is alot scarier than Kidd/Duncan.

kg_veteran · 07-02-2003, 11:27 AM

I think it'd be funny to watch the frustration in Duncan's face as Kidd clanged wide open jumper after wide open jumper when Duncan kicked out of the double team.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-02-2003, 11:35 AM

I think Cub is just using his options. The best point guard in basketball wants to play for his team he just wants to explore his options maybe get Kidd in a steal or somehow. I don't think the Mavs need Kidd. I love Nash because like the article said he is the best pg for this job in Dallas. However, you have to question why he breaks down when it comes to the playoffs. Maybe its the role that the Mavs need him to play that makes him so winded out by playoff time.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I think it'd be funny to watch the frustration in Duncan's face as Kidd clanged wide open jumper after wide open jumper when Duncan kicked out of the double team.

Funny how Duncan doesn't have any emotion showed on his face, but I think Kidd can pulled it out of him with those clanged shots [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:41 AM

i agree, dnnf and kg. duncan doesn't need a pg that can pass great because he can score anyway. he needs someone who he can kick it out to to make the shot when he is double teamed. parker is a better fit than kidd, which is why i hope san antonio ends up with him.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I think Cub is just using his options. The best point guard in basketball wants to play for his team he just wants to explore his options maybe get Kidd in a steal or somehow. I don't think the Mavs need Kidd. I love Nash because like the article said he is the best pg for this job in Dallas. However, you have to question why he breaks down when it comes to the playoffs. Maybe its the role that the Mavs need him to play that makes him so winded out by playoff time.

I think the reason he break down becaused during the regular season, he's only average around 33 min/game. Then come playoff time, he 's not used to the long endurance mins of playoff. He just need to get his stamina up a little and he will be just fine.

Jason kidd in playoff is streaky and inconsistent plus he is playing in the East. I don't see an advantage there between them two where we have to break up this unit. This is not NBA Draft, you just don't go out there and get the best FA available, you need to go out there and get the one that filled your need which is SF, and Center

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:47 AM

we don't need nash averaging more than 33 mpg. having him play more during the regular season is not the answer to his fatigue problems.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-02-2003, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: DNNF

Quote:

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
I think Cub is just using his options. The best point guard in basketball wants to play for his team he just wants to explore his options maybe get Kidd in a steal or somehow. I don't think the Mavs need Kidd. I love Nash because like the article said he is the best pg for this job in Dallas. However, you have to question why he breaks down when it comes to the playoffs. Maybe its the role that the Mavs need him to play that makes him so winded out by playoff time.

I think the reason he break down becaused during the regular season, he's only average around 33 min/game. Then come playoff time, he 's not used to the long endurance mins of playoff. He just need to get his stamina up a little and he will be just fine.

Jason kidd in playoff is streaky and inconsistent plus he is playing in the East. I don't see an advantage there between them two where we have to break up this unit. This is not NBA Draft, you just don't go out there and get the best FA available, you need to go out there and get the one that filled your need which is SF, and Center

Well if you have a chance to upgrade at a position you look to see any possibiltiies. Jason Kidd may be streaky and inconsistent but that is his shooting. He does everything else better then any pg in the NBA. He is a great rebounding pg and well we all know how he passes the rock. Like I said I prefer Nash over Kidd anyday but if you have a chance to bring in a superstar at the pg position without hurting your team I think you atleast look at the possibilities.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mandyahl
we don't need nash averaging more than 33 mpg. having him play more during the regular season is not the answer to his fatigue problems.

Mandyahl, there is no way a person can play more minute in playoff and not feel the fatigue, when he is so used to less mins in 4 to 5 months of regular season. Look at Dirk and Fin for example, I don't see alot of fatique out of them two since they played alot of mins during regular season.

cookies_n_mavs · 07-02-2003, 11:50 AM

Steve Nash is definitely a better fit here in Dallas than Kidd is. Kidd makes his Nets players better, but they're different types of players than Dallas are.

The fact that Dallas is a good guy team is just extra, but having a personality like Kidd wouldn't help it.

I hope Cuban isn't too serious about courting Kidd

FilthyFinMavs · 07-02-2003, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mandyahl
we don't need nash averaging more than 33 mpg. having him play more during the regular season is not the answer to his fatigue problems.

I'm not sur ewhat to say about Nash's fatigues problems. The season before he averaged around 38-40 minutes a game he burns out even more in the playoffs then he did this post season. It might not even be Nash's fault. That run and gun style in the playoffs is just bound to burn any pg out.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 11:53 AM

dirk and fin are less prone to fatigue in general than nash is.

DNNF · 07-02-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Well if you have a chance to upgrade at a position you look to see any possibiltiies. Jason Kidd may be streaky and inconsistent but that is his shooting. He does everything else better then any pg in the NBA. He is a great rebounding pg and well we all know how he passes the rock. Like I said I prefer Nash over Kidd anyday but if you have a chance to bring in a superstar at the pg position without hurting your team I think you atleast look at the possibilities.

If you bring Kidd to this team, you will definitely hurt the team because you have to give up Nash. Nash have been the core of this team for many years. Chemistry is one of the most important aspect.

Also, Dirk will see alot more double team next season when he's practicing his jump hook and improving his passing. I dont' want to see kidd to throw up a bunch of bricks either. His name is Ason Kidd for a reason

FilthyFinMavs · 07-02-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: DNNF

Quote:

Well if you have a chance to upgrade at a position you look to see any possibiltiies. Jason Kidd may be streaky and inconsistent but that is his shooting. He does everything else better then any pg in the NBA. He is a great rebounding pg and well we all know how he passes the rock. Like I said I prefer Nash over Kidd anyday but if you have a chance to bring in a superstar at the pg position without hurting your team I think you atleast look at the possibilities.

If you bring Kidd to this team, you will definitely hurt the team because you have to give up Nash. Nash have been the core of this team for many years. Chemistry is one of the most important aspect.

Also, Dirk will see alot more double team next season when he's practicing his jump hook and improving his passing. I dont' want to see kidd to throw up a bunch of bricks either. His name is Ason Kidd for a reason

Take inconsideration that Kidd is the only player on that NETS team that even draws double teams. Like I said I prefer Nash over Kidd but I don't mind Cuban going after a superstar regardless of what position he plays. That is what got him in trouble last season by just going after 1 guy rather then exploring options. While doing so it did run us into guys like Bell and Walt but that 3 position could've been solved by giving Redd more money or going after a Harpring or Marshall.

mattyd · 07-02-2003, 12:24 PM

Ken Bikoff, whoever he is, is right on. The chemistry is sweet here in Dallas. Cuban, don't mess it up! Get an inside presence here, please...pretty please!

Money · 07-02-2003, 12:49 PM

O'Neal to visit Spurs
Pacers free agent also to talk with Mavs in Dallas

Pacers All-Star forward Jermaine O'Neal plans to meet with Spurs officials July 9. -- Star file photo

By Mark Montieth
mark.montieth@indystar.com
July 2, 2003

Jermaine O'Neal apparently plans to flex his freedom and visit with other teams.

The Indiana Pacers forward who became a free agent at midnight Tuesday will meet with officials from the San Antonio Spurs on July 9 and the Dallas Mavericks sometime next week.

O'Neal had stated following the season that he wanted to explore other opportunities, although his first choice would be to remain with the Pacers. His itinerary during the negotiating period leading up to July 16, the first day teams can sign free agents or make trades, therefore comes as no surprise to the Pacers.

"He's an unrestricted free agent and we understand what that means," said David Morway, Pacers vice president of basketball administration. "He has an opportunity to look at other situations and weigh those situations. We feel strongly that at the end of the day we'll be the best situation for Jermaine."

The defending champion Spurs, who are losing David Robinson to retirement and have about $16 million in salary cap room to entice free agents, list O'Neal as one of their targets. Another is New Jersey guard Jason Kidd, who will visit the Spurs on Sunday.

Dallas does not have salary cap room to make a marketplace offer to a premier free agent. Still, it will court a few in hopes it could then arrange a sign-and-trade arrangement with the player's former team.

"We have spoken to J.O.'s reps and are working to set a time for him to visit Dallas," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said via e-mail on Tuesday. "We will see what happens from there."

The Pacers' front office spent the NBA's opening day for negotiations making contact with representatives for O'Neal and their other primary free agents, Reggie Miller and Brad Miller, to express their interest.

"We talked to the appropriate parties and had preliminary conversations," Morway said. "Everything went well."

Coach Isiah Thomas, meanwhile, called all three players at midnight Tuesday to reiterate the team's commitment to them.

O'Neal has been unavailable for comment since the day after the season ended. Agent Arn Tellem, who represents O'Neal and Reggie Miller, also was unavailable Tuesday.

Brad Miller's agent, Mark Bartelstein, said his client would "lay low" the next couple of weeks and allow the process to play out. The center said after the season he wanted to see what O'Neal does before making a decision.

"Brad has great feelings for Indiana and the Pacers," said Bartelstein. "We've talked to Donnie (Walsh, Pacers president) and he's expressed a desire to have Brad back there, so that's easily the most obvious thing going on.

"The Pacers are a great organization. We just have to see what happens. I think Brad would love to stay put in Indiana. At the same time, we have to let the entire process run its course before making any decisions."

Brad Miller is frequently listed as a secondary free-agent target for other teams. The six-year veteran center was an All-Star for the first time last season, when he was paid $5.3 million. He'll likely command a salary increase, but not the maximum contract O'Neal is expected to receive.

Brad Miller, a Kendallville, Ind., native who attended Purdue, jokingly told Walsh he wanted to sign a contract extension as soon as he was acquired in a trade with Chicago in February 2002. Thomas said Brad Miller should still feel that way.

"Very rarely does a guy find that (perfect) spot for himself in the NBA," Thomas said. "Brad's on a good team, in a great town. And we run a good system for him, one with players around him that really complement him. He's also with a coach who believes in him. I just think everything works for Brad here."

Rhylan · 07-02-2003, 01:23 PM

I think the Kidd talk is more to get into SA's head than anything. Yes, if Kidd is going to bolt and in the unlikely event that NJ feels like it HAS to get something for him, maybe we'll have the inside track on an NVE-centered swap - but we won't trade Nash for Kidd. I just don't see it.

But, like I said, if anything, it gets the attention of the Spurs and makes them think. It'll also bring attention to Dallas from free agents who we have a more likely shot at getting. No reason not to explore every possibility.. it might lead to divine stroke of luck.

Blonde Bomber · 07-02-2003, 01:59 PM

I'm just blown away that the majority of people in this forum would rather keep Nash than have Kidd.

Can somebody here give me a real valid reason for not doing this deal other than Nash is a better shooter, or that we can't break up the big 3? I would love to hear the answer. Because I can't see no reason why the Mavs would not be interested in getting the best PG in the league.

I for one, and it seems im in the minority in the forum, would LOVE to get Kidd in here. YES, Nash can shoot better than Kidd. But can he rebound better? NO. Can he put his teamates in a better position to succeed? NO. Can he play better man defense or switch defense? NO. Does Kidd need to takes breaks during a game because his body is always broken down in the end of the year? NO. Who's better at running a fast break? Kidd.

So if you take pure shooting ability out of the question, Kidd wins in every other case, IMO.

It really shocks me that people can't respect Jason Kidds game. I love Nash but I'm not looking forward to giving out another MAX out contract (see Finley) to a veteran who's tread is starting to look worn in my eyes.

I hope this deal goes through.

Is there anybody who agrees that Kidd would be an upgrade or are we all wearing are homer caps on this debate?

Chiwas · 07-02-2003, 02:05 PM

Mandy said it. Cuban is keeping all the possibilities opened.

He has to have learned from the Lewis unfortunate effort last summer when the Mavs expended the entire summer trying to get him and with the Raef contract.

Nash is a problem for the system. Nash is a problem for himself. The best hoops the mavs plays is when Nash speeds up. The best Nash always appears when he runs. The system suffers when Nash gets tired in the 4th or 5th run; it can happen in the first 10 minutes if Nash decides to rush.

If Cuban opts for Kidd, I see NVE out. But the system would get benefited with Kidd and Nash running in their own time. The Mavs only would need to find a way to get more points to balance the scoring superiority of Nash. Of course Nash could go too, but not along with NVE, and Nash fits more in the Mavs system.

However, I don't think Kidd is the main priority in the Mark's searching. It seems to me that Mourning is the top priority.

By other hand, contracting Kidd and Mourning together would need to trade Nash or Finley at least, along other current Mavs. I still think that Kidd will stay with NJ, because they have the money, more than SA.

The closest closing that I see is Mourning's. Malone's is very far. A healthy Mourning would be great for the team.

kg_veteran · 07-02-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

I'm just blown away that the majority of people in this forum would rather keep Nash than have Kidd.

Can somebody here give me a real valid reason for not doing this deal other than Nash is a better shooter, or that we can't break up the big 3? I would love to hear the answer. Because I can't see no reason why the Mavs would not be interested in getting the best PG in the league.

I doubt there are many people in this forum who suggest that Nash is a better player (in a vacuum) than Kidd. Kidd is widely considered the best point guard in the league. But for the Mavericks, Nash is the better player.

If Kidd is the best PG in the league, Nash is probably the 2nd best PG. The gap between the two players is not nearly as substantial as you seem to suggest. Nash is the better shooter and scorer, while Kidd is the better rebounder and passer. Both, however, are excellent passers. As for defense, Kidd's defense is vastly overrated, and those that think that Kidd would substantially upgrade our defense on the perimeter are mistaken. While Kidd gets more steals in the passing lanes, his on-the-ball defense leaves a lot to be desired, and he's just not quick enough to stay in front of the quicker PGs.

And then there is the issue of chemistry. This isn't to say you CAN'T break up the Big 3, but you might want to have a pretty good reason to do so. We're talking about a 60 win team, and their big areas of weakness don't include point guard. It makes more sense to add to the nucleus than to substantially alter it.

Also, it's been brought up before, but if you had Kidd and Van Exel in the same backcourt, you'd have a big chunk of your shots being taken by poor percentage shooters. That can't be discounted, because Nash's ability to shoot the ball is essential to the way the Mavs offense runs.

Quote:

Does Kidd need to takes breaks during a game because his body is always broken down in the end of the year? NO.

I think it's time to stop using Nash's "frailty" as a reason to get rid of him. How many games did he miss last year? My recollection is 2. That's hardly fragile.

Quote:

It really shocks me that people can't respect Jason Kidds game. I love Nash but I'm not looking forward to giving out another MAX out contract (see Finley) to a veteran who's tread is starting to look worn in my eyes.

So instead, you give a max contract to Kidd? I don't think anyone disrespects Kidd's game, but he's not exactly a spring chicken either. Why shake things up so drastically in an area that wasn't a problem? Why take such a big risk? No reason to, really.

Quote:

Is there anybody who agrees that Kidd would be an upgrade or are we all wearing are homer caps on this debate?

He's an upgrade if you're building a fantasy basketball roster. He's not an upgrade if you're looking to have the best chance to win a title in the next couple of years.

Mandyahl · 07-02-2003, 02:21 PM

did nash miss ANY games last year, kg? i didn't think so...

good post.

Chicago JK · 07-02-2003, 02:23 PM

Kidd is the far superior defensive player, playmaker, and rebounder. Not much debate there.

Chicago JK · 07-02-2003, 02:30 PM

I am one of the biggest Nash homers too, but Kidd is the better player by a good margin. Kidd would open up so many more open looks for Dirk and Fin it would be ridiculous. Nash does a very good job at this, but he is not the playmaker as kidd. Kidd will have 4-15 games, no doubt. Although when Nash has these games, he isn't very useful on the floor. As we witnessed when Kidd was a Mav, Jason will still make 3-4 big non scoring plays that will change a game.

I am sorry to KG....Kidd is an excellent man on man defender.

Losing Nash would be painful to me. He is one of my favorite players to watch. (NJ will have no interest in NVE). Although as far as talent goes....this is a no brainer. Chemistry has to be looked at very closely, but I still give it a big two thumbs up.

Just imagine adding Kidd, Mourning and Josh Howard. All three of those guys are excellent defenders and rebounders. Howard is a question mark due to never playing in the pros. So you would get remarkably stronger on defense and rebounding without losing any offense with Kidd running the show. It would be fun to watch. Probably won't happen, but we can dream.

Drbio · 07-02-2003, 02:35 PM

Can I point out that Dallas really does hold some power in the Kidd thing. We are set pretty good right now without making a move for Kidd. I think we can all agree that we would hate to see Nash go. Why not offer up my man NVE? NVE is an all star caliber guard and the Nets are faced with getting nothing. Getting NVE would be much better than taking a big fat zero. If we play this right, I'd love to see a Nash Kidd backcourt. I'd be the first to trade NVE in that scenario.