Sell the Team

[Tokey41]

Wow, really looking for reasons to bash Cuban now aren't we? I mean that 3-1 is totally his fault, nevermind the team your blaming him for also won 67 regular season games thats just the regular season, they cant get it done when it matters right? His decisions aren't bad ones, last year we went farther than ever before and if you recall that was post-Nash (and you don't even know that he didn't consult anyone about the matter). If your going to for whatever reason blame him for all thats wrong then also blame him for all thats right.

That said this thread is retarded, its one series against one team that gives us troubles (which was also demonstarted in the regular season). Does that somehow make Cuban a bad owner? No, he's the most entertaining owner in the league. I'd take him over whoever the hell GSW owner is (they are so insignificant I have no clue).

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I question what MadApe would do without the owner that gives him his schtick.

He'd be talking how shaun bradley was one of the greatest centers to ever play the game. Typical hogwash from the 'ape to be honest, always has been, it's just been funny until he began to hate himself.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

Wrong. Before Cuban came, Nelson had already acquired Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash. All Cuban did was spend money on a bunch of spare parts that never worked out. The list is endless... Antawn Jamison, Raef LaFrentz, Alan Henderson, Nick Van Exel, Keith Van Horn. The reason the Mavs turned the corner. The ONLY reason they turned the corner, was because of moves made years before Cuban arrived. Most of the moves since then have been disasters. In my opinion, Mark Cuban inherited a dynasty and did everything he could to make sure it failed.

In addition, the idea that Cuban is still spending freely on this team is flat out wrong. He tried to buy a championship early on in his tenure and failed. Money is only good when its spent wisely, and Cuban spent his money like an idiot. But that was then and this is now. In the last couple of years he's let future 2 time MVP playing in his prime walk just to save a couple million bucks. He's let tens of millions of dollars in contracts expire without getting a single damn thing in return. He earned his reputation in his early years by spending wildly on mediocre players. But he's betrayed that repuation recently by letting good players leave the team simply for money reasons. He's gone from trying to buy a championship to selling the Mavs championship in order to line his pockets... or in Mark's words "to make his dick a couple inches longer"

I'm always amazed how those with warped realities pick one guy to focus every decision on. Like nellie/donnie didn't want to get nve, juwan howard, antoine walker, antawn jamison, lafrentz etc. Only cuban did, but then nelson (who was about to have his ass fired) was genious enough to get dirk/stevie. Cuban didn't step up to give mike his dollars so he's worthless no matter that he DID give him his dollars many years ago when the mavs sucked.

It's so convenient to pick the good stuff...put it in the nellie corner and all of the bad stuff and put it in the cuban corner. Like the first years nelson wasn't on board with every single move and I would say the rest of them as well. If not actively on board with them, at least tacitly through donnie.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

Diop was a Donnie Nelson guy. Avery had almost nothing to do with scouting him and building that relationship. Amadou Fall was a Nelson hired scout and the man who brought him to Oak Hill from Africa.

But yes, Dampier was an Avery guy, and Dampier has been a complete disaster. Trading 2 first round picks, nearly 10 million in expring contracts, Najera for a guy with a 7 year near max contract should be labled as one of the biggest bonehead moves in Maverick history. You could have signed someone off the street that could give you what Dampier has given us... and you have. His name is Dasagna Diop and he's been the best playoff center on the Mavs the past two years.

Diop was a bust until he got his ass in gear and lost 50 pounds. Go ask cleveland what geniouses they were for taking him.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

answer - buy season tickets

when were the last ones you bought ape?

[MavsX]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

This is an open plea to Mark Cuban.

It's time, buddy.

idiot

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Gaddabout

How much power does Donn Nelson have? This guy is so valuable as someone who assesses talent, and he's like Brian Colangelo in that he knew everyone important in the NBA before he had his first job. It seems like Cuban would be the ideal owner if he would let Nelson be the face of the front office. It's telling to me that I had to actually look it up to see if Donnie was still there.

I've covered pro basketball before, and NBA front office types have mucho esteem for Donnie. He's no slouch.

Well to hear ape talk about it, he's a stinkin moron. He signed off on dampier for gods sake.

[big_pth]

Hey Darth Ape, what do you get from coming in here and acting the way you do? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to have turned the page and go hang out somewhere else? I could understand if you were just trolling, but you are making reasoned arguments that you obviously spent time crafting. I would think someone who is a reasoned person would just move on and dwell else where on the internet. Yet, you keep coming back here? You know the reception you are going to get, but you do it anyway? Does it do something for you to try to flame-bait? Just wondering...

[Darth Ape]

Originally Posted by big_pth

Hey Darth Ape, what do you get from coming in here and acting the way you do? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to have turned the page and go hang out somewhere else? I could understand if you were just trolling, but you are making reasoned arguments that you obviously spent time crafting. I would think someone who is a reasoned person would just move on and dwell else where on the internet. Yet, you keep coming back here? You know the reception you are going to get, but you do it anyway? Does it do something for you to try to flame-bait? Just wondering...

fair point. And if you hadn't noiced, I really don't spend much of my time here anymore. But this is Don Nelson taking out Mark Cuban in the first round of the playoffs. There's quite a bit of opportunities for "I told you sos", and I'm not above dishing them out, considering how much grief I've taken for my opinions over the last couple of years. So I've come out from hiding.

This is the day of reckoning for Mark Cuban. Excuse me if I enjoy it.

Obviously I am a die hard Mav fan at heart, or else I wouldn't care as much as I do. I just find it difficult to support a team lead by a "man" like Cuban after the way he treated my basketbal idol, Don Nelson. It's frustrating to think of what could have been. If it helps, you can think of me as a fan on strike, and the only thing that will get me to cross that picket line is for Cuban to sell the team.

[come_on_now]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

If it helps, you can think of me as a fan on strike, and the only thing that will get me to cross that picket line is for Cuban to sell the team.

You're quite the busy body for a guy "on strike". Is it a hunger strike by chance?

[Mavdog]

very interesting and insightful article in this mornings wall street journal about the pay dispute between cuban and nelson. among the items mentioned:

cuban has an e mail from nelson in which nelson agrees with the decision not to give steve nash a better deal than phoenix did.

nelson was not involved in any player decisions post 2002/2003 season.

nelson was absent from most of the practices in 2004/2005.

and, in no surprise to any of us who followed the story, their relationship began to spiral down when nelson refused to play an injured dirk nowitzki in the last two games of the 2003 wc final series.

the bottom line is that these are two strong willed individuals, both of whom have acheived success, and both of whom worked very, very hard to give us maverick fans a team we can be proud of.

at the same time, both of whom have let their emotions affect their relationship.

as for me, I like them both, and as a fan I thank them for what they have done for the franchise.

see, it's easy to not take one over the other. at least for those of us who are fans of the mavericks....

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

see, it's easy to not take one over the other. at least for those of us who are fans of the mavericks....

As far as the mavs of past years go, I agree. But there is only one of the two who is willfully doing all he can to eliminate the mavs in the first round of these playoffs. I will hate him for at least 3 more games, and for much longer if he succeeds in his anti-mavs goal.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

As far as the mavs of past years go, I agree. But there is only one of the two who is willfully doing all he can to eliminate the mavs in the first round of these playoffs. I will hate him for at least 3 more games, and for much longer if he succeeds in his anti-mavs goal.

Great post.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

very interesting and insightful article in this mornings wall street journal about the pay dispute between cuban and nelson. among the items mentioned:

cuban has an e mail from nelson in which nelson agrees with the decision not to give steve nash a better deal than phoenix did.

nelson was not involved in any player decisions post 2002/2003 season.

nelson was absent from most of the practices in 2004/2005.

and, in no surprise to any of us who followed the story, their relationship began to spiral down when nelson refused to play an injured dirk nowitzki in the last two games of the 2003 wc final series.

the bottom line is that these are two strong willed individuals, both of whom have acheived success, and both of whom worked very, very hard to give us maverick fans a team we can be proud of.

at the same time, both of whom have let their emotions affect their relationship.

as for me, I like them both, and as a fan I thank them for what they have done for the franchise.

see, it's easy to not take one over the other. at least for those of us who are fans of the mavericks....

really interesting, MD.....anychance you can get a link or do some cutting and pasting?

on Nellie....my Dad (bigger sports nut than me) lived out in the bay area in the early 90's, right around the time when Nellie and that crew had their falling out. I don't know all of the details but the old man says that Nellie just bailed on the team. He further says that Nellie's '04/'05 bail was not at all out of character for the man. Point being, Nellie's got a history of doing what he did here in '04/'05, so it ain't all Cuban.

And oh yeah, Nellie signed off on the Nash no-deal....there's a shocker [/sarcasm]...

[DarenG]

Originally Posted by Darth Ape

Wrong. Before Cuban came, Nelson had already acquired Dirk Nowitzki and Steve Nash. All Cuban did was spend money on a bunch of spare parts that never worked out. The list is endless... Antawn Jamison, Raef LaFrentz, Alan Henderson, Nick Van Exel, Keith Van Horn. The reason the Mavs turned the corner. The ONLY reason they turned the corner, was because of moves made years before Cuban arrived. Most of the moves since then have been disasters. In my opinion, Mark Cuban inherited a dynasty and did everything he could to make sure it failed.

In addition, the idea that Cuban is still spending freely on this team is flat out wrong. He tried to buy a championship early on in his tenure and failed. Money is only good when its spent wisely, and Cuban spent his money like an idiot. But that was then and this is now. In the last couple of years he's let future 2 time MVP playing in his prime walk just to save a couple million bucks. He's let tens of millions of dollars in contracts expire without getting a single damn thing in return. He earned his reputation in his early years by spending wildly on mediocre players. But he's betrayed that repuation recently by letting good players leave the team simply for money reasons. He's gone from trying to buy a championship to selling the Mavs championship in order to line his pockets... or in Mark's words "to make his dick a couple inches longer"

No, your wrong. That's all cuban did? Did you not read my post? He SPENT MONEY. Do you even know what your talking about? Correct me if I am wrong but are the Mavs near the top of total team salaries in the NBA (2nd I think)? I think only the Knicks have a higher paryroll. That is what you consider lining his pockets???

There are plenty of owners out there that would have loaded the team with inexperienced draft picks and not bothered with VETS. You are completely missing the point. The mere fact that he TRIED speaks volumes for him as an owner. Do I need to point out the number of teams in the NBA that draft guys only to let them go because they don't want the contract. The teams that never target FA???

Nobody said he is spending just to spend either. You can't just spend salary space to spend it. Do I think he made a mistake in not resigning Nash? Yes, but his reasoning was sound and seeing what Nash is doing now is hindsight. Again, this is a 67 win team because of what he spent and because he cares about the team.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by victornewman

It is really easy to determine who is a true Mavs fan and who isn't.
ANYONE who would prefer the pre-Cuban/Perot days doesn't know squat and CERTAINLY wasn't a fan back then.

Cuban has made his share of mistakes and he irks me sometimes, but him buying the Mavs was the best thing to ever happen to this organization.
Back in the day, nobody wanted to play in Dallas. The worst thing that could happen to a player was to be traded to the Mavs. The Mavs were at one time considered the worst franchise in the HISTORY OF SPORTS!!!!

Cuban came in and his passion and excitement was addicting. He put butts in seats. He has toned down a lot. I think becoming a family man and father has changed him, which is a good thing.
Cuban is a fan first, owner second type of guy and if he were to ever sell this team, well.... at least you could tell your grandkids about the good 'ole days when the Mavs made the playoffs.

Well, I was certainly a fan back then, and well before that to boot. And I have no qualms at all about saying that I enjoyed it more back then than I do now.

The stuff you are talking about was during the 90's when the Mavericks had hit rock bottom (after an exhilirating run in the late 80's, mind you). Sure, nobody wanted to play here. Yes, we were the dregs of the NBA. We are at the bottom of the cycle.

But things started looking up when we were able to draft Kidd. Things started to get fun again, and there was reason for excitement. Then Nellie came around, and instantly things started to look up! Kidd and draft picks and spare parts are parlayed into Finley, Nowitzki, and Nash. And the franchise begins a powerful upward rise that will last for half a decade or more.

Cuban was smart enough to get in at the beginning, and to hitch his star to Nellie's wagon. And yes, it was nice that he had passion for the game. It was nice that he got people talking about the Mavericks.

But he went way, way too far. As you know by now, he is petulant, impatient, and overly confident in his own expertise (nice way to say "egotistical"). When we didn't get to the Finals in 2003, he decided it was Nellie's fault, and he immediately began to undermine him. Forcing him to coach the last year of his contract without an extension, for example. Of course, he says that that's just the way he does business--but he didn't do the same with AJ. Then he started telling Nellie how to coach. And finally, he undermined him in the worst possible way when he took his favorite toy (Nash) from him.

Cuban let it get personal with Nellie. C'mon, you know that Cuban lets big decisions get personal. He told you so right on his blog! He thought Duffy was playing dirty in the Nash negotations, and his ego would never allow that. So he forced longtime and long-suffering Mavs to swallow the loss of one of their favorite sons, just so he could save face with Duffy. In doing so he completely divorced himself from Nellie. Yet, he was either too cheap to fire Nellie and pay out the rest of his contract, or--more likely--he got a perverse enjoyment from watching Nellie have to deal with the shit he left him to work with.

Then the Finley thing comes, and Cuban's pockets are no longer deep. Now money is more important than loyalty. The rational fan can understand this, even if he doesn't like it, but then Cuban has to go on and encourage fans to boo him! I'm sorry, you cocksucker, but Mike Finley was giving me thrills as a fan before your sorry monomaniacal ass got here, and he kept bringing me pride the whole while you were embarrassing me. Finley was a consummate professional--ever see him in full dress suit for a playoffs post-game interview?--and a testament to the Mavericks organization through and through. And Cuban attacks him.

Then, the whole issue of his involvement with the referees. Dirk and Howard both are on record saying he hurts the team with his antics. He goes on Letterman while we are 2-0 against the Heat, and he pops off his normal smart-ass mouth. Four games later, we are DONE!

I'm sorry, I know you love Mark Cuban and all his money. But the man has done some shameful things in his tenure here. He insists on being the face of the organization, and that's just not a face I feel comfortable representing my favorite team.

So, long story short...yeah, I'd love to have Perot back. And I do fantasize how my Mavericks might have got on if they'd never fallen into the hands of Mark Cuban.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Now money is more important than loyalty.

you are talking about Nash here, right? I agree! He is the suck!

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

you are talking about Nash here, right? I agree! He is the suck!

Great point. It's ok for players to make purely business decisions, but not for owners.

Chum, some of those points are solid, and some of tham are very subjective and full of conjecture.

And there's a ton of positive Cuban decisions left out of there, a ton of information left by the way side.

Does anyone here think Perot would ever have gone over the luxury tax? Ever?

Be careful what you guys wish for.

[rabbitproof]

2-3-4 or even 5 of us really are a small minority. Good luck realizing your other fancy dreams.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

So, long story short...yeah, I'd love to have Perot back.

my short version of the long drama of Nellie and Cuban is this:
Nellie let our 7'6" shot-block champ rot on the bench while the rest of the league ran layup drills on us. Cuban let defenseless Nash choose the cash in order to make financial room for a potential inside presence just in case one might be used on the Mavs.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Great point. It's ok for players to make purely business decisions, but not for owners.

Sometimes players do make concessions out of loyalty to a team that has gone out of its way to do right by the player. Yes, that is true. But do you believe that applies in this case? Nash played very well for the Mavericks for a good long while, and at a bargain price. Is it not fair to say that he was underpaid in his last two or seasons, compared to his production? But you didn't hear him clamor at all about it. You didn't see him pout. He just kept on playing and playing well.

In this case, it would seem clear to me the direction the loyalty should flow.

Nash showed enough loyalty in the proceedings, giving Cuban the chance to match any offer. Even AFTER Cuban lowballed him.

[rabbitproof]

Regarding Nash being quiet - this is basketball. He was overcompensated early on but nevertheless, your contract is your contract. Overpaid, underpaid, you just STFU and play. No NFL renego nonsense.

Get outta 2003.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sometimes players do make concessions out of loyalty to a team that has gone out of its way to do right by the player. Yes, that is true. But do you believe that applies in this case? Nash played very well for the Mavericks for a good long while, and at a bargain price. Is it not fair to say that he was underpaid in his last two or seasons, compared to his production? But you didn't hear him clamor at all about it. You didn't see him pout. He just kept on playing and playing well.

In this case, it would seem clear to me the direction the loyalty should flow.

Nash showed enough loyalty in the proceedings, giving Cuban the chance to match any offer. Even AFTER Cuban lowballed him.

I didn't say I had a problem with what Nash did.

He made a business decision, same as Cuban. Cuban also made a business decision with Finley.

If you want to compain about the merits of the business decisions, fine, but don't bemoan a lack of loyalty from Cuban.

[chumdawg]

Boy, it's sad to me to hear the argument that there is no place for loyalty anymore in sports.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

my short version of the long drama of Nellie and Cuban is this:
Nellie let our 7'6" shot-block champ rot on the bench while the rest of the league ran layup drills on us. Cuban let defenseless Nash choose the cash in order to make financial room for a potential inside presence just in case one might be used on the Mavs.

here's the problem....

You're looking at this like reasonable people may have differences of opinion regarding basketball philosophy and like sometimes people must make decisions without the benefit of perfect foresight. This perspective is quite wrong.

See, this is about good versus evil, dark versus light. This is about the Evil Cuban seeking to destroy all that is good and holy and Nash and Nelson so that he might line his own pockets while causing weeping and nashing of teeth amongst mavericks fans, pun intended.

cheers

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Boy, it's sad to me to hear the argument that there is no place for loyalty anymore in sports.

There's a place for it, but in a salary cap league I'd rather my owner show good business and basketball sense, not loyalty.

[TripleDipping]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Boy, it's sad to me to hear the argument that there is no place for loyalty anymore in sports.

There's no loyalty in the work place anymore, so it's not hard to imagine the same for sports when there's so much money at stake compared to our 8 to 5 stints. I'm not saying that it is right, just merely the norm. A boss wants to watch after his investment and an employee wants to watch after his paycheck.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Sometimes players do make concessions out of loyalty to a team that has gone out of its way to do right by the player. Yes, that is true. But do you believe that applies in this case? Nash played very well for the Mavericks for a good long while, and at a bargain price. Is it not fair to say that he was underpaid in his last two or seasons, compared to his production? But you didn't hear him clamor at all about it. You didn't see him pout. He just kept on playing and playing well.

In this case, it would seem clear to me the direction the loyalty should flow.

Nash showed enough loyalty in the proceedings, giving Cuban the chance to match any offer. Even AFTER Cuban lowballed him.

judging by how Nash blossomed after he chose to leave the mavs, and judging by his comments about new-found, bitter-born motivation to workout harder than ever before - I'd say he wasn't giving his all while he was a Mav. But he still expected the payday.

That's the loyalty you want an owner to reward? The loyalty you expect in sports? That's the loyalty you'll cheer for? That's the loyalty you want the mavs to be built on? That loyalty is the suck!

[TXS]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

judging by how Nash blossomed after he chose to leave the mavs, and judging by his comments about new-found, bitter-born motivation to workout harder than ever before

That is Reason #1, I root against Nash. I loved him here, but left here and then did all that, where was his loyalty when he was here. Where was his heart.....Its sick!!

[Lor20]

I dont know the whole story about the nash deal and frankly i dont think we will really know about it until all involved parties are retired from pro basketball.
saying cuban should sell is stupid - atleast we have an owner who cares. It doesnt help the mavs much sometimes (the videos he sends to the league just make stern put nails into the mav's coffin) but he cares about the nba as a whole and the mavs in particular. if he could tone down his ego a bit sometimes and act a bit classier it'd be good though. I think he is calming down though and should only be getting better from here on out.
IFFFF we lose in round 1 there will have to be some change - not sure what but somehow i think the head that will be rolling first will be avery's.
if we dont count finley and bradley the mavs payroll is just about average in the nba. we have a lot of "expensive corpses" on the payroll still.
im just counting all the centers we paid this year...
damp
diop
bradley (expires 2008)
eschmeyer (expires this year)
mbenga
podkolzin (expires 2007)
kevin willis (just for a few months)
__________
sum of contracts:
22.2 mio a year for 7(!) centers - thats as much as the heat pay for shaq/mourning. Houston pays 15 mio a year for yao/mutombo, chicago pays 15 to wallace... we have 15 other contracts for the other 4 positions (and 4 of them are below 1 mio/year). there sure was/is desperation with the mavs in finding a good C. actually when i think of it - i dont think there is a team in the nba that pays so much for their C and i'm quite sure im not the only one thinking that we dont have the best centers in the league :-P

we also only have 13 players contracted for next season so far (and that includes finley and bradley) so really only 11. Out of those pops ager and mbenga will get only some spare minutes next season. we could use some more vets for next season. i dont think any of the second draft picks we got really make any sense for a 67 win team so we should look at the FA market and see who is up for grabs.

[left texas]

I hear Bidwell is looking to buy a basketball team. Want to sell?

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

judging by how Nash blossomed after he chose to leave the mavs, and judging by his comments about new-found, bitter-born motivation to workout harder than ever before - I'd say he wasn't giving his all while he was a Mav. But he still expected the payday.

That's the loyalty you want an owner to reward? The loyalty you expect in sports? That's the loyalty you'll cheer for? That's the loyalty you want the mavs to be built on? That loyalty is the suck!

Thank you, UL. This is the one reason why I find it tough to root for a guy I used to love rooting for.

He went from crap to very good at the age of 26 (after the 2000 Olympics) - presumably the first time his pride was hurt considering he was easily the best player from Canada and hadn't done much to show it yet. It was pretty unlikely that a guy at age 25 would magically turn into an All-Star, but we were all happy to see it.

Then he goes from All-Star to Best Point Guard Ever at age 31? After having his ego hurt by Cuban's "low ball" offer two months after he got his arse handed to him by Mike Bibby. What are the chances that a 6' white guy would experience two precipitous improvements in skill level in his mid-20's and early 30's?

I doubt it's ever happened before, but this Nash guy is definitely a one of a kind. If he'd had this kind of attitude and commitment in 1996, who knows how good he could've been.

In the meantime, I won't root for him because his stay in Dallas was more about booze and babes than ball.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

very interesting and insightful article in this mornings wall street journal about the pay dispute between cuban and nelson. among the items mentioned:

cuban has an e mail from nelson in which nelson agrees with the decision not to give steve nash a better deal than phoenix did.

nelson was not involved in any player decisions post 2002/2003 season.

nelson was absent from most of the practices in 2004/2005.

and, in no surprise to any of us who followed the story, their relationship began to spiral down when nelson refused to play an injured dirk nowitzki in the last two games of the 2003 wc final series.

the bottom line is that these are two strong willed individuals, both of whom have acheived success, and both of whom worked very, very hard to give us maverick fans a team we can be proud of.

at the same time, both of whom have let their emotions affect their relationship.

as for me, I like them both, and as a fan I thank them for what they have done for the franchise.

see, it's easy to not take one over the other. at least for those of us who are fans of the mavericks....

*this* is the only new material around this angle in years.