There's Hope...

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

In terms of defense? I think he's better than average. The fact he can still stay in front and muscle up on the bigger guards makes a difference, considering not many or any of our defenders can do that. He does a lot of different things on defense, man-up, steal, board, etc. There aren't very many people in the league that can stay in front of quick guards, so if it's a slight against him...it's because he is part of the sum, not in the minority.

I would bet that most of his steals come off the ball. I would also consider rebounding part of his off the ball defense. he can body up on physical guards but there aren't many of them. The two that come to mind are Williams and Davis. Well Deron doesn't post up much. he's big but he plays a game of quickness.

You're right about quick guards bothering most defenders as much as they bother Kidd. That's why I'd call him an average on the ball defender. Like you said he's part of the sum.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well I do disagree with this. Both donnie, cuban talked about being very,very conflicted. I dont' think anyone wanted to do this deal come hell or high water. But if you thought that devin might not get you there, you could talk yourself into doing the deal.

Avery, cubes, donnie talked about it a bunch, heck they even had an extra week to think about it when devean backed out. I'm sure they were as conflicted as many of the fans are but that's what bugs me. They were willing to take that risk instead of firing ko'ach which they had big suspicions needed to be done anyway. At the end of the day they had to do the "shake-up" that should have been.

Again, my whole hell or high water premise is based on the fact that I think we overpaid. A young PG who still has the potential to be a future all-star is adequate compensation for a 35 year old declining players.

So, in my mind, we wanted Kidd so bad that we were willing to overpay instead of walking away from the deal.

Now if the FO doesn't think we overpaid then I'd question their judgment going forward.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Again, my whole hell or high water premise is based on the fact that I think we overpaid. A young PG who still has the potential to be a future all-star is adequate compensation for a 35 year old declining players.

So, in my mind, we wanted Kidd so bad that we were willing to overpay instead of walking away from the deal.

Now if the FO doesn't think we overpaid then I'd question their judgment going forward.

If you are saying that they all three decided that come hell or high water they were going to get him I agree. I don't agree that one or the other pushed the others to make the decision. It appears to me that they collectively agreed that something had to be done because the team just wasn't right, and they did it.

My beef is that cubes/donnie knew something wasn't right with ko'ach and they let that slide to try something else. That shows very poor judgement imo. Not the trade yes or no, but the fact that they'd do the trade knowing that something was wrong with ko'ach.

[chumdawg]

I have heard that Avery was initially gung-ho for the trade, presumably for the reason that his instincts were to save his own ass primarily, and that he knew they couldn't get it done with Harris.

What the hell does Avery care if we give up those draft picks? He knows the drill. There was very, very little chance he was still going to be here anyway by the time those draft picks came to fruition, if they ever even did. And losing Diop? Again, what the hell does Avery care? He didn't much like that particular ingredient anyway, by the looks of it.

In other words, even if you are of the opinion that we "overpaid"--which I happen not to be--if you are going to talk about Avery's perspective then you are going to have to recognize that he didn't care whether we "overpaid" or not. Avery was all for taking Kidd on, because Avery was frustrated by how little he was able to get out of his boy, Devin Harris.

Of course, that frustration became wistful nostalgia and even maudlin self-pity once the thing played out.

[sike]

I'll go on record as being for the Kidd trade AND thinking we overpaid.

Its all about the next two seasons for our Mavs...and I'll gladly overpay and forfeit a bit of the future for just one ring.

Anything less than a ring and hindsight tells a different story...but I still like the "Lets go for it" spirit no matter what the ultimate outcome.

[dirno2000]

In other words, even if you are of the opinion that we "overpaid"--which I happen not to be--if you are going to talk about Avery's perspective then you are going to have to recognize that he didn't care whether we "overpaid" or not. Avery was all for taking Kidd on, because Avery was frustrated by how little he was able to get out of his boy, Devin Harris.

This is true, but honestly he, or any coach for that matter, shouldn't have much say when it comes to compensation. Especially when it involves draft picks. Every coach wants to win now. That's not something that was unique to Avery. It's up the the owner and the GM to look out for the long term health of the organization.

Out of curiosity, why don't you think we overpaid? Do you think we could flip Kidd (now even closer to the end of his deal) for a package remotely close to what we gave up?

[sike]

For the record...what are the first round picks of a perennial top 5 team really worth?

I think we might be overstating the actual on the floor worth of those picks...unless we think the Mavs fall apart in the next few seasons.

If Diop comes back to the Mavs...I will no longer think they "Overpaid" for Kidd.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Do you think we could flip Kidd (now even closer to the end of his deal) for a package remotely close to what we gave up?

We'd have to be dealing with a team desperate to be under the cap, probably not a team desperate to win...so they might get real talent with a big price tag (but not the picks in my scenario).

So I'd say, "yes", "remotely" could be a reality.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I would bet that most of his steals come off the ball. I would also consider rebounding part of his off the ball defense. he can body up on physical guards but there aren't many of them. The two that come to mind are Williams and Davis. Well Deron doesn't post up much. he's big but he plays a game of quickness.

You're right about quick guards bothering most defenders as much as they bother Kidd. That's why I'd call him an average on the ball defender. Like you said he's part of the sum.

I didn't say he was part of the sum in the fact he's an average defender. I said he's better than that. I said that in terms of the fact that no one can really stop the Parker, Williams, or CP3s of the world. The fact that he can stay up with the Kobe's or T-Macs (taller, higher scoring guards) is a testament to his on-ball ability. His past credentials made him a well above average defender. I don't think he is at that level, but he hasn't dropped dramatically either.

I'll agree with sike that I was FOR the deal. Overpaying? Possible if you really value the picks, but you don't get the perfect steal deal all the time. Diop, if he comes back, makes it even less of a factor. As for in 2 years if we don't have a ring, we'll cross that bridge if we get there. It's all about now.

[ghazi]

what makes anyone think devin harris is a futur all star? he is 25 years old, there are 2 all star point guards that are younger than him in paul and williams. if harris is ever an all star, its because th PG's in th eeast are much weaker than the west.

How long did we have to wait for Harris to become an all star anyway? our window was small, regardless of whether or not we made this trade.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by sike

For the record...what are the first round picks of a perennial top 5 team really worth?

I think we might be overstating the actual on the floor worth of those picks...unless we think the Mavs fall apart in the next few seasons.

If Diop comes back to the Mavs...I will no longer think they "Overpaid" for Kidd.

A couple of things. It's hard to know the value of a pick three years down the line, even for a perennial top five team. Especially when you consider that the West is going to be much more competitive in the next three years than it was in the past three years. Teams like NO, Utah, and the Lakers aren't going anywhere and we still have to battle the old rivals and maybe even Portland. In other words, you can't assume that we'll continue to be a top 5 team, even if Kidd deal works out.

Secondly, if we get Diop back that cuts into the money that we'll be able to offer a much needed 2-guard. It's actually a good summer to be in that market but is there any way Diop signs for less than $3MM? That's puts you at a disadvantage to the teams willing to use the full MLE on one player.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Secondly, if we get Diop back that cuts into the money that we'll be able to offer a much needed 2-guard. It's actually a good summer to be in that market but is there any way Diop signs for less than $3MM? That's puts you at a disadvantage to the teams willing to use the full MLE on one player.

If you believe him for saying he wants to come back, then yes I think signing him at less than 3MM is possible. I mean, it's silly if he doesn't take the full MLE if someone wants to offer it to him. But if he's loyal and really wants to come back, we're definitely happy to have him.

Both issues (SG and C) are a major concern, and I still stick to my guns that Miles and Diop are the top two options. If we can take Diop at his word on coming back for around that level, I make Miles my primary target and throw whatever we can at him and hope Utah doesn't match.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sike

For the record...what are the first round picks of a perennial top 5 team really worth?

I think we might be overstating the actual on the floor worth of those picks...unless we think the Mavs fall apart in the next few seasons.

If Diop comes back to the Mavs...I will no longer think they "Overpaid" for Kidd.

I agree sike. We've gotten zippity-doo-dah from our picks the last few years, zip. We finally got kinda smart and sent them overseas to season and see if they will actually be worth keeping.

Only if you assume we are going to stink it up are those picks worth it and imo, if the mavs think that they are going to tear it all down anyway and with that get other picks.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sike

For the record...what are the first round picks of a perennial top 5 team really worth?

I think we might be overstating the actual on the floor worth of those picks...unless we think the Mavs fall apart in the next few seasons.

If Diop comes back to the Mavs...I will no longer think they "Overpaid" for Kidd.

But as DLord was stating, they weren't playing diop anyway, so "technically" he wasn't much of a throw in. The picks aren't worth much, diop was on the littlest colonels bench. Ager, hassell??? Only diop made it lopsided and from the mavs perspectives, he wasn't being played anyway.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by ghazi

what makes anyone think devin harris is a futur all star? he is 25 years old, there are 2 all star point guards that are younger than him in paul and williams. if harris is ever an all star, its because th PG's in th eeast are much weaker than the west.

How long did we have to wait for Harris to become an all star anyway? our window was small, regardless of whether or not we made this trade.

OK, let's say All-Star caliber. You can be a damn good player and not make the All-Star team in the West. Tony Parker and Baron Davis missed it this year. No shame in being a level below Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

[dude1394]

Ah come on, diop is going to go whereever the dollars are, as he should.

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I give hope to men

I keep none for myself.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

OK, let's say All-Star caliber. You can be a damn good player and not make the All-Star team in the West. Tony Parker and Baron Davis missed it this year. No shame in being a level below Chris Paul and Deron Williams.

But was Devin in that tier of Baron or Parker? I wouldn't say that. He has the potential to be, but he isn't there. So that puts him farther down the list.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dude1394

But as DLord was stating, they weren't playing diop anyway, so "technically" he wasn't much of a throw in. The picks aren't worth much, diop was on the littlest colonels bench. Ager, hassell??? Only diop made it lopsided and from the mavs perspectives, he wasn't being played anyway.

True words about the doghouse...is it ok if simply summarize my thoughts by mentioning what a terrible job Avery did this past season with my mavs?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If you believe him for saying he wants to come back, then yes I think signing him at less than 3MM is possible. I mean, it's silly if he doesn't take the full MLE if someone wants to offer it to him. But if he's loyal and really wants to come back, we're definitely happy to have him.

Both issues (SG and C) are a major concern, and I still stick to my guns that Miles and Diop are the top two options. If we can take Diop at his word on coming back for around that level, I make Miles my primary target and throw whatever we can at him and hope Utah doesn't match.

I'm glad Diop wants to come back because they at least puts us in the game. That being said, he's not leaving $1MM a year on the table. If he does, he needs to fire his agent. He's not the type that's going to have a lot of earning power when he leaves the game so this is it for him. He needs to make all he can.

[dude1394]

Devins style of play with be interesting. It appears that he's not exactly a fast healer and his style isn't "clever", it's more of a power game in a smaller package.

He's going to have to figure that out, I dont' think he can stand to just keep getting plastered.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

But was Devin in that tier of Baron or Parker? I wouldn't say that. He has the potential to be, but he isn't there. So that puts him farther down the list.

absolutely agree...Devin is a tier below Baron and Parker...making him two tiers below Paul and Williams.

Harris is a bundle of potential...I just want to wait and see if he ever becomes more than a slightly better L. Barbosa.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'm glad Diop wants to come back because they at least puts us in the game. That being said, he's not leaving $1MM a year on the table. If he does, he needs to fire his agent. He's not the type that's going to have a lot of earning power when he leaves the game so this is it for him. He needs to make all he can.

This is kinda interesting. He actually needs to find a place that can increase his value. I don't know where that would be. But somewhere that he could get a lot of playing time and coaching.

Maybe here, I don't know. But that "might" be worth a million or so in the off chance that he'd improve enough to go 6.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'm glad Diop wants to come back because they at least puts us in the game. That being said, he's not leaving $1MM a year on the table. If he does, he needs to fire his agent. He's not the type that's going to have a lot of earning power when he leaves the game so this is it for him. He needs to make all he can.

Like you, I hope he'll come here for less than 3mil...I could see it happening, but I have to squint just right...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

But was Devin in that tier of Baron or Parker? I wouldn't say that. He has the potential to be, but he isn't there. So that puts him farther down the list.

Devin may not be in that tier, but neither is Kidd anymore. He still has the best court vision in the league, but that will only do so much since he isn't quick enough anymore to consistently get into the paint.

[BGMaverick9]

Is Kidd better than Devin now, I would say yes.
Is Devin going to be better than Kidd, possibly.

Do we have the time to wait and see, hell no. That should be the end of discussion.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

But was Devin in that tier of Baron or Parker? I wouldn't say that. He has the potential to be, but he isn't there. So that puts him farther down the list.

Not really. Potential is gold when it comes to trades. Especially for a team looking to rebuild like NJ was. That's the thing that I think is being overlooked. They needed to move Kidd. He had become a pain in the ass and they knew they they weren't making anymore runs. Even in the East. When you can replace a declining player with a player with potential, that's usually a good trade.

Also, Devin is good now so there is no bust potential. You're either going to get a good player or a really good player.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Devin may not be in that tier, but neither is Kidd anymore. He still has the best court vision in the league, but that will only do so much since he isn't quick enough anymore to consistently get into the paint.

Or could the ball being taken out of his hand 80% of the time have something to do with it?

I seem to remember Kidd getting to the rim a ton.....uh.....and missing.....but he was still at the dang thing.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dude1394

This is kinda interesting. He actually needs to find a place that can increase his value. I don't know where that would be. But somewhere that he could get a lot of playing time and coaching.

Maybe here, I don't know. But that "might" be worth a million or so in the off chance that he'd improve enough to go 6.

That's a good point. He's 25, and still young in terms of learning more of the game. He could still take a chance and go with a situation that caters to him at a cheaper rate and still get a big pay-day out of it. He knows Dallas would give him that chance. He already was in and out as a starter, so he knows the minutes are there.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Is Kidd better than Devin now, I would say yes.
Is Devin going to be better than Kidd, possibly.

Do we have the time to wait and see, hell no. That should be the end of discussion.

great post...

and let me just say, I'd be surprised if Devin Harris is EVER as good a total player as Jason Kidd is right now.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Also, Devin is good now so there is no bust potential. You're either going to get a good player or a really good player.

Not if injuries continue to be a problem for him. His slower-side on the recovery scale doesn't help either.

[sike]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's a good point. He's 25, and still young in terms of learning more of the game. He could still take a chance and go with a situation that caters to him at a cheaper rate and still get a big pay-day out of it. He knows Dallas would give him that chance. He already was in and out as a starter, so he knows the minutes are there.

Lets hope you and dude are right...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sike

Lets hope you and dude are right...

Well unfortunately for the record, I think he takes the money.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well unfortunately for the record, I think he takes the money.

lets see if he gets them...sitting on that bench pretty much all of 08 can't have the price too high...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Well unfortunately for the record, I think he takes the money.

What money? Do you think any team out there is going to spend half the MLE on him? I don't. He's not exactly highly sought after. He's not part of New Jersey's plans. I don't see there being any kind of Diop sweepstakes.

[BGMaverick9]

The teams who throw the money around also have a role to play. I haven't heard a lot of teams, the one I've heard more than a couple of times is Utah. They don't like the Okur/Boozer front-court and they think Diop is the right match. I can't imagine Sloan and Diop being a good pair though. That is a situation where if they throw the money around then that might get his attention. But I can't see many other top tier teams giving him a major look. If they did go for him, that would slightly help our chances for Miles though.

Like you guys are saying, I don't think the Diop sweepstakes has many contestants. If he goes somewhere he might get paid now but never again. With Dallas, he'll get what he gets now and potentially get more in the long-run. The situations are similar but the familiarity comes into play as well.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

What money? Do you think any team out there is going to spend half the MLE on him? I don't. He's not exactly highly sought after. He's not part of New Jersey's plans. I don't see there being any kind of Diop sweepstakes.

Beats me. We surely think highly of him. I dont' know what a sweepstakes is, but if I'm desgana I'm taking an extra half-million where I can get it.

[ghazi]

i heard lakres fans talkin about diop and lue on clublaker

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Beats me. We surely think highly of him. I dont' know what a sweepstakes is, but if I'm desgana I'm taking an extra half-million where I can get it.

I'm sure he will take the extra money if some team offers it too him. But I wonder what the perception of him around the league is. I mean, us posters on this board think highly of him sure, but as far as the NBA is concerned, Dallas thought enough of him to throw him into the kidd trade without blinking, and New Jersey isn't interested in keeping him.

[BGMaverick9]

From what I read around on other boards he's seen as a defender who can board. That's the general consensus. WE see that with some good energy/hustle and better hands than our current starting center, lol.