There's Hope...

[LSMF]

Even though this whole team looks like a mess right now there's hope. I still believe in this team and here are a few reasons: We still have one of the best players to play the Friggin game in Dirk Nowitzki, We still have a clutch shooter and a Leader in Jet, We still have one of the Best Pgs in the game in Jason Kidd, and even though Kidd is in his twilight I think he wants to go out with a bang and he will, If Josh doesn't get traded he will probably try to make up for his actions last season by returning to his "Scottie Pippen role", We will probably get Diop back(Hopefully) and I've seen Diop drain some midrange shots while he was in Jersey, Diop also has better hands than Damp so Imo he can do better than Damp with Kidd around, We have a chance to get someone like C.J.Miles who can be a young Michael Finley imo(Athleticism, Good B-Ball Iq, Heart, Clutch, Smooth Shooting) ,

We still have Mark Cuban who wants us to win badly and will pay so much money for this team, We still have the Beast Brandon Bass, We still have Antoine Wright who really has alot of potential imo, We will probably see some new faces that will help us next season also. And we have Rick Carlislie a proven coach who is going to be huge for us imo, we had a moron like Avery who didn't have much of a offensive system or defensive system and we still were an elite team for a long period of time and now we actually have a Proven Coach! There's Hope Mavs fans, we will make a comeback in 2008- 2009! And Btw I expect ShaggyDirk, Flaco and others to bring their gloominess into this thread

[horse900703]

hope so...........

[LSMF]

^I love this guy lol

[MavsX]

dammit longsufferingmavsfan

[Tokey41]

You know there's little/no hope when people start making threads trying to talk themselves into thinking there really is..

It's just a damn shame we didn't get Carlisle a season earlier, i'm absolutely certain things would have been different.

[Caseman]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

^I love this guy lol

Why?

And I'm done with hoping. I now demoted my expectations to please just make the playoffs.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Tokey41

You know there's little/no hope when people start making threads trying to talk themselves into thinking there really is..

It's just a damn shame we didn't get Carlisle a season earlier, i'm absolutely certain things would have been different.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

Diop also has better hands than Damp so Imo he can do better than Damp with Kidd around, We have a chance to get someone like C.J.Miles who can be a young Michael Finley imo(Athleticism, Good B-Ball Iq, Heart, Clutch, Smooth Shooting) ,

We still have Mark Cuban who wants us to win badly and will pay so much money for this team, We still have the Beast Brandon Bass, We still have Antoine Wright who really has alot of potential imo, We will probably see some new faces that will help us next season also. And we have Rick Carlislie a proven coach who is going to be huge for us imo, we had a moron like Avery who didn't have much of a offensive system or defensive system and we still were an elite team for a long period of time and now we actually have a Proven Coach! There's Hope Mavs fans, we will make a comeback in 2008- 2009! And Btw I expect ShaggyDirk, Flaco and others to bring their gloominess into this thread

Damp-Diop will be a nice duo. Both have to learn to set picks, and either roll or pick and pop if Diop does have that jumper.

I hope Cuban's want to win badly, doesn't have us buying Juwan Howard-Eddie Jones types over a CJ Miles. I think the system engineered to Kidd's specs will be the key, even on the defensive end of things.

[mavsfan1000]

Yep we screwed up our team and than get a good coach. Carlisle would've been perfect with the team we had a year ago.

[Tokey41]

Originally Posted by Caseman

Why?

And I'm done with hoping. I now demoted my expectations to please just make the playoffs.

I thought Cuban was all about the championship or bust mentality... if our goal is to simply make the playoffs and if he truly believes we can't win a championship yet we still give it a shot then he's contradicting himself.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yep we screwed up our team and than get a good coach. Carlisle would've been perfect with the team we had a year ago.

Ive been thinking the same thing recently but just let it go Mavsfan1000, I loved Devin alot also but theres nothing we can do now but too hope for the best

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Yep we screwed up our team and than get a good coach. Carlisle would've been perfect with the team we had a year ago.

Yea this pisses me off more than anything about the kidd trade. Cubes/Donnie knew they were going to fire avery, they just knew it. There is no way they could have not noticed the problems the team was having.

Instead of taking action to fix the problem by firing avery and having an interim coach they took a gamble changing the team and THEN still firing avery.

Outside of nash leaving for nada, it's one of the worst decisions they've made and it seemed to be a last-gasp effort. But it was pretty naive and wishful thinking.

[ShaggyDirk]

No matter what we do, we aren't going to win a championship in the next 5 or so years. When Bynum comes back...ouch. So just enjoy being a fan and don't get caught up with all the depressing doom and gloom talk.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

No matter what we do, we aren't going to win a championship in the next 5 or so years. When Bynum comes back...ouch. So just enjoy being a fan and don't get caught up with all the depressing doom and gloom talk.

Ah bull-honkey. If the mavs are still winning 50+ games in the west then they can beat anyone. Whether they do or not is problemattic, but annointing someone champs is ridiculous.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Ah bull-honkey. If the mavs are still winning 50+ games in the west then they can beat anyone. Whether they do or not is problemattic, but annointing someone champs is ridiculous.

I definitely agree

[ghazi]

Bynum and Gasol havn't vne played a game w/ each othr. lts not start sucking th lakres dicks just yt.

[ghazi]

keyboard fuckd up, btw

[ghazi]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yea this pisses me off more than anything about the kidd trade. Cubes/Donnie knew they were going to fire avery, they just knew it. There is no way they could have not noticed the problems the team was having.

Instead of taking action to fix the problem by firing avery and having an interim coach they took a gamble changing the team and THEN still firing avery.

Outside of nash leaving for nada, it's one of the worst decisions they've made and it seemed to be a last-gasp effort. But it was pretty naive and wishful thinking.

c'mon, i wouldnt go as far as to say w "scewd up our team" in th kid dtrad. devin for kidd is an upgrad at PG, diop hurt cnter depth, and th rst wre just filler.

w lost dfnsiv siz, but othre than that, I think its way too much of an xaggreation to say w scrwed up th tam. it would b bttr to say we screwed up th SEASON but vn that is not tru, but not the team.

[ghazi]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

No matter what we do, we aren't going to win a championship in the next 5 or so years. When Bynum comes back...ouch. So just enjoy being a fan and don't get caught up with all the depressing doom and gloom talk.

if thats th case, lts just trade dirk now and blow th team up... the rbuild and mak a run in 5 years.......

we owe it to dirk t send him to a contneder if we cant be a contnder ourslves

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by ghazi

c'mon, i wouldnt go as far as to say w "scewd up our team" in th kid dtrad. devin for kidd is an upgrad at PG, diop hurt cnter depth, and th rst wre just filler.

w lost dfnsiv siz, but othre than that, I think its way too much of an xaggreation to say w scrwed up th tam. it would b bttr to say we screwed up th SEASON but vn that is not tru, but not the team.

I'm not even that pissed about the trade, just the fact that it was made to give avery one last chance when I'm sure they either suspected or knew that he was done. Why change up the team (they thought they needed a spark) when you knew the spark was going to be firing avery.

[ShaggyDirk]

it's naive to think we even have a chance in the next 5 years. so, in my best Simon Cowell voice..."Sorry"

[ShaggyDirk]

Originally Posted by ghazi

if thats th case, lts just trade dirk now and blow th team up... the rbuild and mak a run in 5 years.......

we owe it to dirk t send him to a contneder if we cant be a contnder ourslves

th frc i strg wth ts oe

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

it's naive to think we even have a chance in the next 5 years. so, in my best Simon Cowell voice..."Sorry"

Screw all nervous nellie fans.

[Tokey41]

Originally Posted by ShaggyDirk

it's naive to think we even have a chance in the next 5 years. so, in my best Simon Cowell voice..."Sorry"

Weren't you in favor of this god awful trade? Or do you just believe we were screwed either way?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I'm not even that pissed about the trade, just the fact that it was made to give avery one last chance when I'm sure they either suspected or knew that he was done. Why change up the team (they thought they needed a spark) when you knew the spark was going to be firing avery.

I think you're underestimating Dirk's role in the trade. Avery or no Avery Dirk wanted the pass first PG that he's been missing since Nash left. He said as much after the trade was completed. Nobody was more effusive in praising the deal than Dirk. I can't remember the exact but at one point he threw Devin Harris under the bus. Out of character for him and I don't think that had any malicious intent. He was just that happy with the deal.

Dirk's unhappiness (and the fact that it was affecting his play) would explain out desperation to get a deal done. And make no mistake about it, it was desperation. Weather you like the trade of not it's kind of hard to argue that we didn't get screwed. I don't care if he is a future hall of famer, Kidd is 35 and his game had already started to show signs of decline. Devin Harris and filler should have been enough to get it done. Maybe you throw in Diop or a 1st to help NJ sell the deal to their fans but that's it. Sending Diop AND two #1's tells me that they were willing to walk away from the table and we weren't.

You can question the level of Avery's involvement in the trade but I don't think he was an advocate. That's why he didn't have a problem benching Kidd in the Spurs game and, according to recent reports, talking about how he was done shortly after the trade went down.

I never got the impression that it was a Donnie deal either. he's the ultimate company man so he's going to put the best face on it but he's never come off as a huge advocate. Like I said before, I think this was a Cuban and Dirk deal and they were going to get it done regardless of who the coach was.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by ghazi

c'mon, i wouldnt go as far as to say w "scewd up our team" in th kid dtrad. devin for kidd is an upgrad at PG, diop hurt cnter depth, and th rst wre just filler.

w lost dfnsiv siz, but othre than that, I think its way too much of an xaggreation to say w scrwed up th tam. it would b bttr to say we screwed up th SEASON but vn that is not tru, but not the team.

Sorry Ghazi but I just can't agree that we didn't screw the team up, how can you possibly say the Kidd trade made us better? Kidd was better than Devin when he was younger but now at this point of there careers Devin is just the better player. Look at it this way Devin can score, he can create his own shot, and he can defend quick guards very well, devin's flaw on Defense was that he couldn't guard Big guards. Kidd can barely Score, Horrible jumpshot, Quick Guards just annihilate him, and he does an average job on Big guards. His passing however is spectacular imo, but his passing cannot replace the things we lost when we traded for him which is why I think the team was better without making this trade, and the Numbers after the trade prove my point.

[BGMaverick9]

So what happens if Kidd is back in "Kidd form" with Carlisle?

I think you're also underrating Kidd's defense.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

So what happens if Kidd is back in "Kidd form" with Carlisle?

I think you're also underrating Kidd's defense.

Off the ball he's still as good as there is in the game. On the ball he's average at best.

[BGMaverick9]

In terms of defense? I think he's better than average. The fact he can still stay in front and muscle up on the bigger guards makes a difference, considering not many or any of our defenders can do that. He does a lot of different things on defense, man-up, steal, board, etc. There aren't very many people in the league that can stay in front of quick guards, so if it's a slight against him...it's because he is part of the sum, not in the minority.

[jthig32]

C'mon Dirno. You said you wanted to hear what Cuban and Donnie said about the trade. They've spoken, and you yourself said you've always felt like Donnie was a straight shooter. Now you're still going to stick with your belief that Avery was not in favor of the trade? Come on man.

[dude1394]

I think that dirk knew that the team wasn't right, it wasn't right all year and needed a shakeup. Dirkster also "I believe" had lost quite a bit of faith in the little napoleon, his own admission about not only how jkidd was used but the lack of communication between them.

It wasn't just dirk's poor play but the teams performance in close games and away games that was concerning. Also Josh's, ejones, stacks, diops gradual falloff as the season went on. But certainly dirk's play was a big factor.

It just seems that cubes/donnie knew a shakeup was needed (they may/may not have known what).

They chose poorly. And in the end the correct call seemed to have been made anyway.

[LSMF]

My opinion about Avery is that whenever a team beats him in the playoffs he tries to take a page out of there book. Sound Stupid? Look at it this way, When the Miami Cheat beat us in 2006 they were a team full of veterans so the next year Avery decides to get us "veteran defenders" and "veteran leadership".

In 2007 we lose to the Warriors who play small ball and have scoring at every position, the next year Avery decides to do the same, A hard worker like Diop is suddenly in the doghouse, Damp is not getting as many minutes as he should, The undersized Bass is now playing at center because hes a good scorer.

In 2008 we lose to the Hornets mostly because of Speedy Pg Chris Paul, then Avery remembers that we used to have a Speedy Pg in Devin Harris who was traded away which makes Avery act like he didn't want the Kidd trade. See the connection between the playoff losses, this is Just my two cents I dont know if this theory is right.

[dude1394]

Fighting the last war syndrome, eh?

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think that dirk knew that the team wasn't right, it wasn't right all year and needed a shakeup. Dirkster also "I believe" had lost quite a bit of faith in the little napoleon, his own admission about not only how jkidd was used but the lack of communication between them.

It wasn't just dirk's poor play but the teams performance in close games and away games that was concerning. Also Josh's, ejones, stacks, diops gradual falloff as the season went on. But certainly dirk's play was a big factor.

It just seems that cubes/donnie knew a shakeup was needed (they may/may not have known what).

They chose poorly. And in the end the correct call seemed to have been made anyway.

When Dirk and the team was playing poorly everyone was so quick to complain but During last year's offseason all most people said was "It doesn't matter what happens during the regular season anymore" and "Lets pace ourself like the Spurs". Thats why the team was struggling a little imo they just didn't take every game seriously and also because Avery sucks bigtime at playcalling and substitutions. I think eventually they would have gotten into a rhythm and began to whoop everybody elses butts, but then the Kidd trade was made which was unnecessary imo. Donnie/Cubes should just have fired the Moron Avery and gotten a real coach and this team would have be fine.

[BGMaverick9]

If Dirk was in favor of the Kidd deal, which everyone seems to be in agreement on...why isn't he getting flack for his opinion...if it was the wrong move? Cuban and Donnie are...but not him?

I don't think it was a bad deal. I think the coach was hampering the old PG, and hampering the new one as well. I liked what Harris did, but I wasn't ever sold that it would click for him. With him, injuries always played a role. If your PG is coming in and out of injury its hurting his development. You know what you're getting with Kidd, and you never really had that sense with Devin.

[dude1394]

I'm not sure if the team would have been fine, nor am I sure that the team isn't fine. I expect however that cubes/donnie were very concerned about ko'ach. Enough where I'd heard rumors of him being replaced before the season was over.

I just think it's a shame that they seemingly had big concerns about ko'ach, yet they pulled the trade for avery to try and get him what he had been asking for. THATS what I call desperate about it.

The ko'ach needed to be gone (and is and was) but before they would make that call they tried to shake the team up another way to try and save him. It became a desperate attempt to save him.

[BGMaverick9]

Well, that's consistent with what Cuban said in Carlisle's presser. They say they go in with the mindset of "what can we do to put ____ in a successful situation." Avery liked Devin, then he hated him, liked him again...back and forth. There isn't a lot to hate about Kidd when it comes down to it. Avery mishandled him and threw him under the bus. They gave Avery the quick fix and he still found a way to make it worse than it should've been.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

C'mon Dirno. You said you wanted to hear what Cuban and Donnie said about the trade. They've spoken, and you yourself said you've always felt like Donnie was a straight shooter. Now you're still going to stick with your belief that Avery was not in favor of the trade? Come on man.

After hearing from all the involved parties, my final position was that while Avery wasn't a strong advocate for the trade, he didn't exercise his veto power either. That alone make him implicit. It also wouldn't directly contradict anything than any of the parties have said on the record. As far as I know Donnie has only said that they wouldn't have done the deal if they weren't all in agreement. You can agree but still have reservations.

Understand, I'm not saying that Avery wasn't in favor of the trade on some level. I'm saying that someone in the inner circle wanted to do the deal come hell or high water (thus our overpaying) and I don't think Avery was that person. Do you? Or do you disagree with my basic premise that, even if you love Kidd, we overpaid.

[mqywaaah]

I feel all you IMO's. Yeah!!!

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

After hearing from all the involved parties, my final position was that while Avery wasn't a strong advocate for the trade, he didn't exercise his veto power either. That alone make him implicit. It also wouldn't directly contradict anything than any of the parties have said on the record. As far as I know Donnie has only said that they wouldn't have done the deal if they weren't all in agreement. You can agree but still have reservations.

Understand, I'm not saying that Avery wasn't in favor of the trade on some level. I'm saying that someone in the inner circle wanted to do the deal come hell or high water (thus our overpaying) and I don't think Avery was that person. Do you? Or do you disagree with my basic premise that, even if you love Kidd, we overpaid.

Well I do disagree with this. Both donnie, cuban talked about being very,very conflicted. I dont' think anyone wanted to do this deal come hell or high water. But if you thought that devin might not get you there, you could talk yourself into doing the deal.

Avery, cubes, donnie talked about it a bunch, heck they even had an extra week to think about it when devean backed out. I'm sure they were as conflicted as many of the fans are but that's what bugs me. They were willing to take that risk instead of firing ko'ach which they had big suspicions needed to be done anyway. At the end of the day they had to do the "shake-up" that should have been.