At this point, all you can do is laugh - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 12:22 AM

Why did Terry take 23 shots?

Zki41 · 11-15-2008, 12:24 AM

Why did Stack play 19 minutes?

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 12:24 AM

Just watching the last few minutes of the game... Dirk just hit the game winner!!! oh wait...

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 12:28 AM

not that it matters, but Terry lost us this game. Not only did he take way too many shots but he's gotta save the ball there.

Windmill360 · 11-15-2008, 12:30 AM

I was at the game. It looked like Howard inbounded the ball to a Magic player. Did he?

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 12:30 AM

I just took a look at the box score. At first, it was hard to believe we lost. We outrebounded them, shot 5% better, and only turned the ball over 3 more times.

Then I looked at the FT's. They shot 37, we shot 23.

Flacolaco · 11-15-2008, 12:39 AM

Looks like I'm a one man moderating wrecking machine tonight... And I gotta tell you...if one more person starts a new thread in the mavs section, I am going to lose it. NEWS FLASH: I don't care what your opinion is, it is insignificant enough to go in an existing thread.

antoinewalker · 11-15-2008, 12:53 AM

give the ball to gerald green.

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Looks like I'm a one man moderating wrecking machine tonight... And I gotta tell you...if one more person starts a new thread in the mavs section, I am going to lose it. NEWS FLASH: I don't care what your opinion is, it is insignificant enough to go in an existing thread.

Go, Flaco, Go

Dtownsfinest · 11-15-2008, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

And the Nets have a better record than the Mavs

Dammnit. Aren't they trying to get a lottery pick to build around Lebron potentially? We can't get a better record than guys who want to be in the lottery?

sike · 11-15-2008, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yep. One of the turning points for this franchise (among other things, including Avery running the team into the ground) was when hall of famer Pat Riley showed the world how to stop the Mavs offense (i.e. Dirk's offense).

its been said a thousand times...but this is the simple truth

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

its been said a thousand times...but this is the simple truth

It makes me so much more sad to think about that moment and what Riley and co. did to this team than to think about the Mavs' current situation (though the two are obviously related).

FINtastic · 11-15-2008, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

NEWS FLASH: I don't care what your opinion is, it is insignificant enough to go in an existing thread.

That's just because you haven't heard my opinion yet. I better go start a new thread about it.

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 01:02 AM

not to spark a big debate since obviously we would have won of that wasn't the case, but you'd think if people knew how to stop Dirk he wouldn't score 24 on 50%+ shooting.

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

not to spark a big debate since obviously we would have won of that wasn't the case, but you'd think if people knew how to stop Dirk he wouldn't score 24 on 50%+ shooting.

It's not as though it's rendered Dirk irrelevant or even a mediocre player, but things have certainly changed since Pat Riley. Dirk used to have bad games, but it was rarely because a team came at him hard with a smaller defender or 2, roughed him up, and completely took him out of his game.

Not every team has the personnel to do what the Heat did, but the ones that do come hard at Dirk and he doesn't always respond. That's not to say he's not still an awesome player, but things have never been the same, ESPECIALLY in crunch time.

And beyond the X's and O's, the mental impact has obviously been massive. The team went from believing it would get the necessary baskets and stops in the clutch to essentially believing the exact opposite. And it all started with Riley. Sure, we played great the next regular season, but as soon as it came to crunch time again (the GS series), the exact same thing happened. The EXACT same thing.

sike · 11-15-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

not to spark a big debate since obviously we would have won of that wasn't the case, but you'd think if people knew how to stop Dirk he wouldn't score 24 on 50%+ shooting.

not every team has a coach willing to do it or players to pull it off...but yes, Dirk is an exceptional offense talent.

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It's not as though it's rendered Dirk irrelevant or even a mediocre player, but things have certainly changed since Pat Riley. Dirk used to have bad games, but it was rarely because a team came at him hard with a smaller defender or 2, roughed him up, and completely took him out of his game.

Not every team has the personnel to do what the Heat did, but the ones that do come hard at Dirk and he doesn't always respond. That's not to say he's not still an awesome player, but things have never been the same, ESPECIALLY in crunch time.

And beyond the X's and O's, the mental impact has obviously been massive. The team went from believing it would get the necessary baskets and stops in the clutch to essentially believing the exact opposite. And it all started with Riley. Sure, we played great the next regular season, but as soon as it came to crunch time again (the GS series), the exact same thing happened. The EXACT same thing.

I think it's more mental than X's and O's. Remember how horrible it felt for us when the Mavs lost the finals? And again against GS? I promise it's 1000000x worse for him.. He has to have so much doubt floating around in his mind right now.

It's nice that we have a non-arrogant superstar.. but it also sucks at the same time because he knows he's not perfect and it comes across.

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I think it's more mental than X's and O's. Remember how horrible it felt for us when the Mavs lost the finals? And again against GS? I promise it's 1000000x worse for him.. He has to have so much doubt floating around in his mind right now.

It's nice that we have a non-arrogant superstar.. but it also sucks at the same time because he knows he's not perfect and it comes across.

There's a definitely a significant mental element, no doubt.

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

not every team has a coach willing to do it or players to pull it off...but yes, Dirk is an exceptional offense talent.

I can't remember for sure but didn't Dirk torch the heat the next year? I know they weren't the same team but I mean I think it had more to do with it being the finals rather than personnel.

don't get me wrong, Riley did a great job on him... but Dirk always adapted in the past. He got over Bowen shutting him down. Got over Marion.. But this Mavericks heart-ache we've had for a few years has no cure it seems and he got a lion's share of it.

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I can't remember for sure but didn't Dirk torch the heat the next year? I know they weren't the same team but I mean I think it had more to do with it being the finals rather than personnel.

don't get me wrong, Riley did a great job on him... but Dirk always adapted in the past. He got over Bowen shutting him down. Got over Marion.. But this Mavericks heart-ache we've had for a few years has no cure it seems and he got a lion's share of it.

Heat didn't play Dirk that next year at all like they did in the Finals. I remember thinking it was very odd.

sike · 11-15-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Heat didn't play Dirk that next year at all like they did in the Finals. I remember thinking it was very odd.

I remember that as well...

Flacolaco · 11-15-2008, 01:20 AM

The only thing I give Riley credit for is the genius job of saying "Ok guys, the plan is give to Wade because he gets every call, even the phantom ones."

He didn't beat the mavs, they beat themselves, and have suffered ever since.

Flacolaco · 11-15-2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

That's just because you haven't heard my opinion yet. I better go start a new thread about it.

I dare you!!!!

sike · 11-15-2008, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

The only thing I give Riley credit for is the genius job of saying "Ok guys, the plan is give to Wade because he gets every call, even the phantom ones."

He didn't beat the mavs, they beat themselves, and have suffered ever since.

Riley said, "The rest of them can't beat us...stop Dirk at all costs and then dare the others to make open shots."

fluid.forty.one · 11-15-2008, 01:22 AM

It's pretty obvious though that all we need is for Dirk to grow his hair out..

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

The only thing I give Riley credit for is the genius job of saying "Ok guys, the plan is give to Wade because he gets every call, even the phantom ones."

He didn't beat the mavs, they beat themselves, and have suffered ever since.

Riley's offensive game planning was crap. He did exactly what you just said, and it worked.

His defensive plan though, was absolutely brilliant. It just destroyed us.

ty · 11-15-2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

Can we have Avery back?

Alright...that's taking it just a little too far.

I'd rather go another 2-7 than have that jackass back in Dallas.

GermanDunk · 11-15-2008, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

It's pretty obvious though that all we need is for Dirk to grow his hair out..

Exactly what i thought yesterday ! Dirk must be Maverick !

alby · 11-15-2008, 01:54 AM

These are sad, sad times.

alby · 11-15-2008, 01:55 AM

This man deserves better.

FINtastic · 11-15-2008, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I dare you!!!!

Uh oh, he called my bluff...

dirno2000 · 11-15-2008, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Riley's offensive game planning was crap. He did exactly what you just said, and it worked.

His defensive plan though, was absolutely brilliant. It just destroyed us.

It wasn't brilliant strategy it was 1990's Knicks thug ball and the refs let them get away with it. Shaq elbowed Dirk in the mouth in Game 1, Posey bodied him up the entire series and stuck a foot under Dirk every time he went up for a jump shot (Shaq did this too and actually caused Dirk to tweak his ankle once) and Zo threw him to the ground whenever he went to the basket. Zo was able to hang out around the paint because KVH couldn't make a shot.

If Riley truly revealed the blueprint to guarding Dirk he wouldn't have gone on to win MVP the next season.

Re-Dirk-ulous · 11-15-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yep. One of the turning points for this franchise (among other things, including Avery running the team into the ground) was when hall of famer Pat Riley showed the world how to stop the Mavs offense (i.e. Dirk's offense).

It was Don Nelson who taught the world how to stop the Mavs (i.e, Exploited every single one of Dirk's weaknesses)

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-15-2008, 02:36 AM

To rub it in, Pietrus had 20 points, 9 rebounds. 5-7 on three pointers. God I wanted that guy....

Diop is seriously lookin like the guy who just wanted a new contract. Sigh.

basketballgirl25 · 11-15-2008, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zki41

Nets have Prince Vince and a young potential great center in Brook Lopez, Harris, and Yi. I am honestly surprised they aren't doing better.

With Harris and Carter as the Nets best players I can see why, it takes time to get better all Net fans know we won't do to well.

Now as for the Mavericks, they remind me of the Nets from last year, have talent and just can't get it done, things can change yes, but as of right now they just remind me of the Nets from last year. Now if they lose to the Knicks that will be really werid the trouble first started in Nets land when Nets player Knicks last year, hahaha

LonghornDub · 11-15-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If Riley truly revealed the blueprint to guarding Dirk he wouldn't have gone on to win MVP the next season.

We already discussed this. Scroll up.

dirno2000 · 11-15-2008, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Dirk used to have bad games, but it was rarely because a team came at him hard with a smaller defender or 2, roughed him up, and completely took him out of his game.

The book on Dirk (actually all Euro's) from day one has been rough him up. That was nothing new.

As far as using a smaller defender to crowd him, Pop had been doing that with Bowen for a while.

I'd also argue with the premise that things were never the same for him in crunch time. He and Terry carried us to 67 wins by making big shot after big shot in the regular season.

Now if you want to say the series scared us mentally I'd agree with that but let's not make Riley to be anything more than what he was that year. A coach that used brute force to compensate for the fact that his team was out manned.

dirno2000 · 11-15-2008, 04:16 AM

One more point on this. We won Game 1 fairly easily, blew them out of the building in Game 2 and were up by 13 in the 4th quarter of Game 3. I don't think there's a strategy lever to be pulled at that point. It's just a matter of making shots and hoping the other teams experiences some shrinkage.

croco · 11-15-2008, 05:29 AM

I find it hard to root for this collection of players anymore. It's clear that the players and franchise has never overcome when we lost the Finals, won 67 games and lost in the first round to Golden State, won another 50 games last year to get crushed again. That is a lot everyone has been through and it is too much to solve those problems with a few trades.

What we need is a change of mentality and culture, blow it up and start the rebuilding finally.

dalger · 11-15-2008, 05:44 AM

Someone needs to help me out: how is it even possible that our four perceived most important players (Dirk, Josh, Kidd, and JET) all have a decent to good night, the team as a whole has a higher shooting percentage than the opponent, more rebounds, assists, steals and only 3 more turnovers, and still we lose the game?

I mean, if it were against the Lakers or Boston, okay, I would (try to) understand it. But it seems these days, and someone already mentioned it, that at least four Mavericks have to play at a 100% or even above it for the team to win against any team, not just the good ones.

I just don't get it. I was hopeful before the season, but it seems that major changes are inevitable. Even the Kidd trade didn't stop the "mental crisis", Kidd has actually become a part of it just like the young players who adopt it from the core. Some might say that this team could win if they only improved on the court, but the amount of really discouraging losses has been so staggering that I don't have any confidence in them anymore, even though I would love to have it.