PGT: RockBottom@Nuggets: Where being stupid happens

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think so.

I'm just tired of seeing it spin back to the same old argument. It feels like the same argument just pops back up and I don't really think anything new comes of it.

Is it safe to assume they were right or wrong right now? No.
Can you make a sound decision and it blows up in your face? Yes.

[chumdawg]

Half the problem is that the "sound decision" hasn't really been made yet, which is a large source of the frustration. Rather, it has just been put off, and put off, while the fans get a worse and worse taste in their mouths.

If they have a "sound decision" in them, I would sure like to see it soon. It seems to me like they are doing a lot of flying by the seats of their pants...and not all that successfully.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I'm just tired of seeing it spin back to the same old argument. It feels like the same argument just pops back up and I don't really think anything new comes of it.

Is it safe to assume they were right or wrong right now? No.
Can you make a sound decision and it blows up in your face? Yes.

It's pretty damn wrong right now. In merely one more year dirks contract comes off the books and they will be looking at signifivpcant dry powder, nice that they accelerated it for basically nothing.

That's the rub isn't it, you think it was a sound decision, it appears and appeared to me to be one of the dumbest decisions for a franchise that actually wants to compete in history of sports franchises. You think it was sound, the scoreboard says differently.

[nowhereman]

[markus1234]

Let me quote...

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/...ves-build-hope

nuff said.

[SMC0007]

Dirk don't know shit.

He's just extremely lucky to have stuck around here for as long as he has!

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I'm just tired of seeing it spin back to the same old argument. It feels like the same argument just pops back up and I don't really think anything new comes of it.

Is it safe to assume they were right or wrong right now? No.
Can you make a sound decision and it blows up in your face? Yes.

I've tried fighting this discussion, but it does have a little more relevance now.

Is it safe to assume they were right or wrong right now? Right now, I'd say it leans on the "wrong" side of the tracks.

Can you make a sound decision and and it blows up in your face? Sure, but then the decision often isn't sound. This summer will almost definitely determine whether that decision was sound or not.

[sike]

People calling back to Chandler is tiresome. Why not just cry about not drafting Karl Malone??? The focus should be on this off season...bc that is when the promises are either fulfilled or the age of grace turns into the age of wrath for the MBT.

I'm willing to see what they do THIS off season. But no further. Though I do expect that I am more patient than most.

[Day1MavsFan]

Anyone who thinks the 2011 team wouldn't wipe out this year's Western conference just isn't thinking straight. That team was masterful. That team was so fundamental and team-oriented that it made Popovich jealous. That team swept a two-time defending champion with a HOF coach.

There wouldn't be any champions to worry about this year in the West. Sure the Clippers are up and coming but no way do they beat the '11 Mavs. Lakers? A joke. Thunder? Not as good without Harden, but perhaps more seasoning makes it close. Certainly they aren't better. Spurs are perhaps the same. Hard to say yet. Maybe better, but that still doesn't make the West tougher.

As to whether that team would contend with everyone two years older? I don't see why not. A more developed Brewer...a healthy Caron...a more experienced JJB. Dirk is still just as good. Maybe Marion has lost a smidge. Tyson is just as good. AND they'd all have more chemistry having played three seasons together.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Day1MavsFan

Anyone who thinks the 2011 team wouldn't wipe out this year's Western conference just isn't thinking straight. That team was masterful. That team was so fundamental and team-oriented that it made Popovich jealous. That team swept a two-time defending champion with a HOF coach.

There wouldn't be any champions to worry about this year in the West. Sure the Clippers are up and coming but no way do they beat the '11 Mavs. Lakers? A joke. Thunder? Not as good without Harden, but perhaps more seasoning makes it close. Certainly they aren't better. Spurs are perhaps the same. Hard to say yet. Maybe better, but that still doesn't make the West tougher.

As to whether that team would contend with everyone two years older? I don't see why not. A more developed Brewer...a healthy Caron...a more experienced JJB. Dirk is still just as good. Maybe Marion has lost a smidge. Tyson is just as good. AND they'd all have more chemistry having played three seasons together.

very nice post...i don't see the canyon fall off either.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

If the 2011 team was frozen and didn't age a day from the championship parade, they wouldn't be a contender.

There has been a lot of dumb shit posted on this website. A lot of it by me, but this is by far the dumbest.

[chumdawg]

Giggle at the "a lot of it by me" bit.

[MavsFTR]

The only thing I hate about the dismantling of the championship team is the notion that the whole thing was a complete fluke, that they just "caught lightning in a bottle." I feel like people are completely discrediting that amazing team. It seems like their exaggeration grows over time on how "lucky" we were. People forget that team was dominant the entire season (excluding the time Dirk and Caron were simultaneously incapacitated). I am completely fine with the direction Cuban and Donnie have taken, but I just wish our fans would show a bit more faith in the greatest Mavericks team in history.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

The only thing I hate about the dismantling of the championship team is the notion that the whole thing was a complete fluke, that they just "caught lightning in a bottle." I feel like people are completely discrediting that amazing team. It seems like their exaggeration grows over time on how "lucky" we were. People forget that team was dominant the entire season (excluding the time Dirk and Caron were simultaneously incapacitated). I am completely fine with the direction Cuban and Donnie have taken, but I just wish our fans would show a bit more faith in the greatest Mavericks team in history.

Cubes didn't, why should the fans?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

The only thing I hate about the dismantling of the championship team is the notion that the whole thing was a complete fluke, that they just "caught lightning in a bottle." I feel like people are completely discrediting that amazing team. It seems like their exaggeration grows over time on how "lucky" we were. People forget that team was dominant the entire season (excluding the time Dirk and Caron were simultaneously incapacitated). I am completely fine with the direction Cuban and Donnie have taken, but I just wish our fans would show a bit more faith in the greatest Mavericks team in history.

Pretty sure the '03 team was greater.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pretty sure the '03 team was greater.

If you take out the idiot Avery, maybe. But that Miami team had nothing on the one the 2011 team whooped. And I don't recall a trouncing through the playoffs like that 2011 team either.

I would respectively disagree with you.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

There has been a lot of dumb shit posted on this website. A lot of it by me, but this is by far the dumbest.

Or is yours the dumbest by calling mine the dumbest?

You really think 2011 Mavs could beat the 2013 Heat and Spurs?

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

There has been a lot of dumb shit posted on this website. A lot of it by me, but this is by far the dumbest.

Repped.

[davblue]

Originally Posted by sike

People calling back to Chandler is tiresome. Why not just cry about not drafting Karl Malone??? The focus should be on this off season...bc that is when the promises are either fulfilled or the age of grace turns into the age of wrath for the MBT.

I'm willing to see what they do THIS off season. But no further. Though I do expect that I am more patient than most.

How about the 84 draft when we passed on Barkley and Stockton? What a team that would've been.

for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_NBA_Draft

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

The only thing I hate about the dismantling of the championship team is the notion that the whole thing was a complete fluke, that they just "caught lightning in a bottle." I feel like people are completely discrediting that amazing team. It seems like their exaggeration grows over time on how "lucky" we were. People forget that team was dominant the entire season (excluding the time Dirk and Caron were simultaneously incapacitated). I am completely fine with the direction Cuban and Donnie have taken, but I just wish our fans would show a bit more faith in the greatest Mavericks team in history.

You're remembering the season very differently than me. We went 2 and 7 when Dirk got hurt in December 2010, Butler went out in Jan and missed the rest of the season. While we had a great record, we finished 3rd in the west (which was about average for the team at that time)and Dirk still had his "soft" reputation in the league as well as fan bitterness from the 2006 loss, 2007 first round exit when we set a franchise best record, and 1st round exits for 3 of the 4 seasons between the 2006 and 2011 seasons. I remember the general mood that year being nothing special, in fact I recall the expectation was they'd choke...until the playoffs started and then it was clear Dirk was determined to win.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

The only thing I hate about the dismantling of the championship team is the notion that the whole thing was a complete fluke, that they just "caught lightning in a bottle." I feel like people are completely discrediting that amazing team. It seems like their exaggeration grows over time on how "lucky" we were. People forget that team was dominant the entire season (excluding the time Dirk and Caron were simultaneously incapacitated). I am completely fine with the direction Cuban and Donnie have taken, but I just wish our fans would show a bit more faith in the greatest Mavericks team in history.

Yeah, it was magical because we won it. Before the playoffs started, everyone thought we were one and done. Plenty thought we wouldn't make it past Portland which was ludicrous and some even called for Carlisle to be fired in the middle of the series. Few, if any, had faith in that team before the Lakers series.

Edit: Basically what Dirk's Knee said above me.

[markus1234]

NYK 125 OKC 120

take it for what it's worth...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

You're remembering the season very differently than me. We went 2 and 7 when Dirk got hurt in December 2010, Butler went out in Jan and missed the rest of the season. While we had a great record, we finished 3rd in the west (which was about average for the team at that time)and Dirk still had his "soft" reputation in the league as well as fan bitterness from the 2006 loss, 2007 first round exit when we set a franchise best record, and 1st round exits for 3 of the 4 seasons between the 2006 and 2011 seasons. I remember the general mood that year being nothing special, in fact I recall the expectation was they'd choke...until the playoffs started and then it was clear Dirk was determined to win.

True dat, playa.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

If you take out the idiot Avery, maybe. But that Miami team had nothing on the one the 2011 team whooped. And I don't recall a trouncing through the playoffs like that 2011 team either.

I would respectively disagree with you.

I suspect you meant "respectfully," but I have no idea what year you are talking about.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yeah, it was magical because we won it. Before the playoffs started, everyone thought we were one and done. Plenty thought we wouldn't make it past Portland which was ludicrous and some even called for Carlisle to be fired in the middle of the series. Few, if any, had faith in that team before the Lakers series.

Edit: Basically what Dirk's Knee said above me.

I'm not sure about this "everyone" thinking we were "one and done" business although it did seem to be a trendy pick that Portland would take us down. I can't say I ever really bought it personally because Portland seemed to be continually overrated by some folks, but I suppose there was certainly a respectable contingent who thought Portland was going to pull off the upset in that series. Granted, I was frustrated and somewhat pessimistic after the complete meltdown in Game 4, but it was a lot less of a cause for concern given that they needed two amazing performances from a has-been without any cartilage in his knees.

The Lakers were another overrated outfit that year. Happens to every incumbent champion, but outside of one very hot stretch after the All-Star break when everyone decided that the "Lakers were back" mainly because they scorched the 1st place Spurs in a national television game during that stretch, that Laker squad always looked vulnerable. I wouldn't have guaranteed that the Mavs were going to be the team to end their hopes of a three-peat and send The Zen Master riding off into the sunset, but I was sure that team wasn't winning a championship regardless of what the Mainstream Media was spouting. People seem to forget that they needed overtime to beat the Kings(!) in a must-win game the final night of the season in order to keep the 2nd seed away from the Mavs. Personally, I gave the Mavs about a 50/50 shot going into that series, even if the national media was trumpeting how that Mavs wouldn't be able to handle the champions. You saw about how much that "championship savvy" was worth for them once the series began.

The main reason "nobody predicted" the championship happening was because everyone started buying into the fallacy that past performance will predict future results and forgot that every season is it's own season. This especially became the case when the Mavs had a few performances down the stretch where they lost to some good teams, which gave the pessimists a chance to crow that this was indeed the "same old Mavs". The 2011 championship run may not have been a lock or even incredibly likely, but it's hard to look back on any of those series being major upsets (granted, the fact the we actually swept the Lakers still seems fairly surprising). I will note that it helped matters that the Spurs got themselves knocked out in the first round and Miami hadn't quite figured things out yet.

So I can't say I ever thought we were a championship lock going into the playoffs, but we went in there with a chance. Frankly, that's all I really ask for, but these days we are pretty much left with the satisfaction of whiffing on big name free agents as our only consolation. But as 2011 showed, if you give yourself an actual fighting chance going into the playoffs and manage to get one of the game's legends rolling, sometimes a little magic can happen.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Or is yours the dumbest by calling mine the dumbest?

You really think 2011 Mavs could beat the 2013 Heat and Spurs?

When did contender = lock for a championship?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

When did contender = lock for a championship?

In strawman debating class land.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I suspect you meant "respectfully," but I have no idea what year you are talking about.

Oh I was thinking 2006, you were thinking 2003. Again a coaching problem, no defense.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yeah, it was magical because we won it. Before the playoffs started, everyone thought we were one and done. Plenty thought we wouldn't make it past Portland which was ludicrous and some even called for Carlisle to be fired in the middle of the series. Few, if any, had faith in that team before the Lakers series.

Edit: Basically what Dirk's Knee said above me.

Fandom makes knuckleheads of us all. Our record and the type if team we were made us solid contenders. Ben and skin do not count as learned prognosticators.

Just because everyone was wrong doesnt mean that team wasn't badass. They were they solidly beat all comers, showing grit and defensive determination. All the scuttlebutt before the playoffs started was because of past teams, not that one.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Or is yours the dumbest by calling mine the dumbest?

You really think 2011 Mavs could beat the 2013 Heat and Spurs?

Yes

[Dirk's Knee]

The argument is getting old so this will lastly be my last post on the topic. My opinion is if the 2011 team had been completely kept together, we'd honestly be looking at a similar scenario this year. Let's break it down

Dirk missed a third of the season. In 2010 when Dirk went out for 9 games, the Mavs went 2-7. So really, without Dirk the 2011 team wasn't a contender. I'm betting this season would've gotten off to an even worse start with the 2011 roster due to not being able to run opponents so hard.

JKidd looks old, he actually missed 1 game due to exhaustion. In a recent interview he said he probably won't play out his contract. He's 40 trying to run with 20 year olds. While there's no comparison in terms of bball IQ, Mike James is actually an upgrade in terms of athleticism. I'd argue he'd be an even worse defensive liability than what we're putting out there now.

Of course there's Chandler. He's been good this year, no doubt. However, would he be the offensive answer when Dirk was out for so long? Doubtful. Also, he's been in and out for around 10 or so games recently with a neck injury. Which means we would've been getting lit up in the low post...not unlike our current squad (actually, Wright has shown great improvement this season in his defensive low post game, if only RC would give him the minutes).

Terry's skills are falling off pretty quickly. While Mayo's offensive prowess morphed from tiger to kitten over the course of the season, the second half of the season has seen him become a better distributor. Both are defensive liabilities. I'd say a probably a wash here.

Brewer and Butler could've been featured players by this point, but we know Dallas under RC just doesn't like to develop players.

Looking at those guy's performances this season maybe we get a handful more games and land the 8th. But really the season likely would've played out exactly as it has and the biggest reason was Dirk missing so many games. Would I like our chances better with the 2011 squad at the 8th seed this year? Not really. If the season ended today we'd end up with a bracket of something like the Spurs, Clippers, then Thunder (presuming no upsets and we win all series). While the super fan would clearly say the Chandler fairy dust would cut through those teams like butter, I just can't see it. Let's remember we split the season with SA in 2011 and got lucky that we didn't have to face them in the playoffs.

[oilfieldtrash]

Kidd is still worlds better than James/Collison even at 40 and exhausted.
Chandler looked great just yesterday against the Thunder.

And last but not least we'd still have financial flexibility after next season because Dirk, Carter, Marion are coming off the books. So we still could have a good to great team and still have the precious dry powder.

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Kidd is still worlds better than James/Collison even at 40 and exhausted.

Not without Dirk on the floor, or some other offensive powerhouse. Now arguably Brewer/Butler could have picked up some of that slack with Dirk out presuming they'd progress the same under RC as they have elsewhere. But the 2011 team went 2-7 without Dirk. The same thing would've happened with his extended outage in 2013.

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Chandler looked great just yesterday against the Thunder.

First solid showing since mid March. And again, him being out of the lineup didn't significantly affect NY's winning percentage. Clearly the argument for the keep-it-together crew is without him, we suck. If we had the same team fighting for a lower spot (or maybe sitting pretty in 8) due to missing Dirk for so long, we'd be starting Haywood with Cardinal off the bench. Have the rose colored glasses revised the history of those players on the Mavs as well?

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

And last but not least we'd still have financial flexibility after next season because Dirk, Carter, Marion are coming off the books. So we still could have a good to great team and still have the precious dry powder.

This I agree with. Cubes did jump the gun. He took a gamble based on what looked to be available not taking into account that superstars just don't seem to want to play in Dallas (other than Dirk). That said, looking at Dirk's lazy start in 2011/2012 and the injury in 2012/2013 I just don't see things panning out any differently. Since his arrival, this team has lived and died by Dirk's performance. This and last season, we've just not seen a consistent championship level Dirk.

[EricaLubarsky]

I think a lot of people confuse taking a big gamble (and losing) with not trying.

Cubes should be blamed for taking a gamble and ultimately failing (although we now have the benefit of hiundsight). He can't be blamed for failing to try. He tried and failed and that may be an indicator that he's not a good GM/owner, but he didn't fail to try.

[Bayliss]

Cuban didn't really "try" that hard. Had he really tried that hard his @ss would have met with Deron Williams personally. Instead he met with him via webcam so he could film Shark Tank.

And sure people say it doesn't matter, but apparently it mattered to Deron as Deron said it mattered to him.

If Cubes was so invested in the Mavericks he would quite doing his sideshow business.

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Cuban didn't really "try" that hard. Had he really tried that hard his @ss would have met with Deron Williams personally. Instead he met with him via webcam so he could film Shark Tank.

And sure people say it doesn't matter, but apparently it mattered to Deron as Deron said it mattered to him.

If Cubes was so invested in the Mavericks he would quite doing his sideshow business.

I thought Deron said Joe Johnson was the deciding factor. Certainly Cubes should have met him face to face. But while Deron would've been a huge improvement over what we had this year...really I still question whether we'd be sitting pretty with Dirk missing 1/3 the season. We'll see what happens this offseason. Either Cubes will ultimately look like a genius or an idiot...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

If Cubes was so invested in the Mavericks he would quite doing his sideshow business.

I agree 100% that Cuban should have met with Deron, but are you serious with this comment, dude? If you are, I don't think you have much understanding about how mega type A personalities like Cuban's work. His involvement in multiple ventures has nothing to do with his level of investment to any particular one.

[Bayliss]

I agree 100% that Cuban should have met with Deron, but are you serious with this comment, dude? If you are, I don't think you have much understanding about how mega type A personalities like Cuban's work. His involvement in multiple ventures has nothing to do with his level of investment to any particular one.

His multiple ventures kept him from obtaining a top free agent last summer. And I am sure it will keep him out of the loop in other aspects as well. His personality might want to do other ventures but it will hurt the Mavs.

And btw it has already started anyway, besides Shark Tank... he wanted to buy the Cubs(?) or Pirates last year. The Mavs are no longer his toy that he continually tinkers with. He has beccome the Donald Sterling of the NBA. He wants to make money off the Mavs. And of course that isn't the way to win basketball games.

[oilfieldtrash]

Cuban has made a few awful decisions the last 2 years. I hope this is a blip on the radar and not a Jerry Jones/Al Davis type run.

[EricaLubarsky]

Can someone give me a list of free agents whose opinion was based on the owner making an appearance. Maybe it's common, but I'm looking back and most FAs re-sign with their current team or are swayed by current players, GMs and coaches that I can find. Perhaps it's common or perhaps we are just using that extra resource of having a famous owner that most teams don't have.

I know that Jerry Buss was influential in a few deals going down (as well as Riley, Kupchak, etc.)