Thanks, Bush, we really appreciate what you have done for us

[Dim499]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

p.s. I ´m for Kyoto, but i for myself was shooting along the A8 with a 911 at 250 kmh. All human beings

Nah, you can do what you want. I was just kidding about that stuff. Also now that I know you drive a Porsche your opinion means much more to me.

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by Dim499

Nah, you can do what you want. I was just kidding about that stuff. Also now that I know you drive a Porsche your opinion means much more to me.

Ah, then i even know better what you meant, because i didn´t notice you was kidding.

No, i don´t drive Porsche, because 1st) i can´t afford, 2nd) enviroment matters

[Janett_Reno]

They can't defend Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfield and Cheney. How low can you go when you are the worst? You know a catfish, a bottom feeder. It is also sad to compare George W Bush to the American troops and the American troops would not appreciate those comments.

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

HNN Poll: 61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst

I see the administration of the second Bush as clearly the worst in our history. My reasons are similar to those cited by other historians: In the wake of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, the United States enjoyed enormous support around the world. President Bush squandered that goodwill by taking the country into an unnecessary war of choice and misleading the American people to gain support for that war. And he failed utterly to have a plan to deal with Iraq after the invasion. He further undermined the international reputation of the United States by justifying torture.

Mr. Bush inherited a sizable budget surplus and a thriving economy. By pushing through huge tax cuts for the rich while increasing federal spending at a rapid rate, Bush transformed the surplus into a massive deficit. The tax cuts and other policies accelerated the concentration of wealth and income among the very richest Americans. These policies combined with unwavering opposition to necessary government regulations have produced the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Then there is the incredible shrinking dollar, the appointment of incompetent cronies, the totally inexcusable failure to react properly to the disaster of Hurricane Katrina, the blatant disregard for the Constitution—and on and on.

Like a majority of other historians who participated in this poll, my conclusion is that the preponderance of the evidence now indicates that, while this nation has had at least its share of failed presidencies, no previous presidency was as large a failure in so many areas as the current one.

[Janett_Reno]

Hagel: McCain Facing Electoral Buzzsaw Over Iraq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...t_n_94934.html

The Republican Party and its presumptive nominee Sen. John McCain are heading into a 2008 electoral buzzsaw with their continued support of the Iraq war, Sen. Chuck Hagel said in an interview with The Huffington Post on Thursday.

The country is still very sour on the war, the Nebraska Republican pressed, and support for candidates who want to stay the course is simply not there.

"I am concerned about the [party still holding on to Iraq as an issue]," said Hagel. "If for no other reason than the political factors here are quite obvious. This country has made a decision on Iraq, and as you see now in any poll, even a minimum of 25 percent of the registered Republicans cannot support the president's policy in Iraq. You take that with the independents and Democrats and you have anywhere between 60 and 70 percent who want out. So you can't politically sustain this and any party that uses this as an issue when they are going in the face of where America is, is not going to do very well politically. That is just the facts of life."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The way i see it "Janett_Reno", if you like middle east war and want to stay in Iraq, possibly go into Syria and Iran, McCain should be your man. Who cares about the economy and do not be fooled, why oil is over $100.00 a barrel is alot of Bush and Chains invading Iraq and staying. The job market, do not be fooled, read today.

If you care about the economy, borders and the American citizens protected, jobs, healtch care, oil and gas prices(and yes gas will start to come down as soon as Hillary or Obama is in and we start getting out of Iraq), the middle class, then you need to look at Obama and Hillary. In the end, i do not think the American people will choose 4 more years of the 7 we have had. Trickle down economics doesn't work as Bill Clinton showed us that and so did George W Bush. We was filthy rich with Clinton and broke under George W Bush.

It just don't trickle down, it stops somewhere along the way.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

They can't defend Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfield and Cheney. How low can you go when you are the worst? You know a catfish, a bottom feeder. It is also sad to compare George W Bush to the American troops and the American troops would not appreciate those comments.

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html

HNN Poll: 61% of Historians Rate the Bush Presidency Worst

You know this is why you aren't worth listening to janet (becides being delusional about big oil).

HNN poll?? History News Network??

An unscientific poll of professional historians completed the same week produced results far worse for a president clinging to the hope that history will someday take a kinder view of his presidency than does contemporary public opinion.

What should I think about a "historian" who can't even wait for a president to be in office before voicing an opinion. Let's see first (hack), second(devoid of integrity).

Here's a quote from one of those "historians"

“No individual president can compare to the second Bush,” wrote one. “Glib, contemptuous, ignorant, incurious, a dupe of anyone who humors his deluded belief in his heroic self, he has bankrupted the country with his disastrous war and his tax breaks for the rich, trampled on the Bill of Rights, appointed foxes in every henhouse, compounded the terrorist threat, turned a blind eye to torture and corruption and a looming ecological disaster, and squandered the rest of the world’s goodwill. In short, no other president’s faults have had so deleterious an effect on not only the country but the world at large.”

Reads like democrat talking points. I'm shocked I didn't see a bush-hitler or a monkey-face in there.

Go back to the kos-kids where you and they can wallow in your ignorance.

[Janett_Reno]

And dude, you are the one that can't give reasons why we are in Iraq. It sounds like your reason was Sadam was a bad man. It sounds like to me dude Bin Laden is a bad man and is the one we should be after.

Something else you need to think about with Pat Robertson, the American people aren't going to let Chains and W invade Syria and Iran because they have already flubbed the dub going into Iraq and now the country you really feared dude is now even stronger and in better position, Iran. Explain that dude?

If i am givng Democrat talking points, please give the people Republican talking points? Is that Faith, Values, Morals, Republican Judges, Against Gays and against abortion, the Democrats will tax you so beware and the Democrats will take your guns and fishing poles away? Those one liners won't work in the next election. Good luck trying.

Other night Letterman asked McCain some things as McCain and just like W and Chains is trying to scare everyone with the terrorist word. So Letterman asked about the economy, falling dollar, gas prices, people losing houses and etc but all McCain can say, yea people are hurting.

Rove has told him and all Republicans do not mention "Recession". You know dude, to tell the truth but Obama will give McCain plenty to think about with words like Recession, Oil, Economy, Faith, Values, Morals, Housing market, Falling Dollar, Middle class, and Hillary will even say the word Health care and Obama will say the word change. These things McCain better be practicing on because dude he will not win the election on Iraq alone.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

And dude, you are the one that can't give reasons why we are in Iraq. It sounds like your reason was Sadam was a bad man. It sounds like to me dude Bin Laden is a bad man and is the one we should be after.

Something else you need to think about with Pat Robertson, the American people aren't going to let Chains and W invade Syria and Iran because they have already flubbed the dub going into Iraq and now the country you really feared dude is now even stronger and in better position, Iran. Explain that dude?

If i am givng Democrat talking points, please give the people Republican talking points? Is that Faith, Values, Morals, Republican Judges, Against Gays and against abortion, the Democrats will tax you so beware and the Democrats will take your guns and fishing poles away? Those one liners won't work in the next election. Good luck trying.

Other night Letterman asked McCain some things as McCain and just like W and Chains is trying to scare everyone with the terrorist word. So Letterman asked about the economy, falling dollar, gas prices, people losing houses and etc but all McCain can say, yea people are hurting.

Rove has told him and all Republicans do not mention "Recession". You know dude, to tell the truth but Obama will give McCain plenty to think about with words like Recession, Oil, Economy, Faith, Values, Morals, Housing market, Falling Dollar, Middle class, and Hillary will even say the word Health care and Obama will say the word change. These things McCain better be practicing on because dude he will not win the election on Iraq alone.

Janett...I've given zillions of reasons why we went into iraq, and for your information there are quite a few democrats (hillary, kerry, etc.) who voted to go in, if I recall it was about (77-23 in favor). It's useless to try and convince someone like yourself who actually believes it was to enrich halliburton. It's like trying to argue with someone who believes in the tooth fairy.

edit: to help you out "zillions" was hyperbole.

[ShaggyDirk]

sweet thread.

[GermanDunk]

There probably are some very good reasons but the guy are not going to tell them.

[rabbitproof]

it's an all-around failure, pity and clusterfuck.

life certainly isn't better than it was for most parties involved.



EDIT: on a positive note, the nation is savvy, hates the war and is going to try to end it. hope the system works and washington will comply.

[kappasigma]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???



Price of oil - $105/barrel

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded)

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)




But who cares?
(hint: not you)

i'm not for or against bush, but i was shocked by the number of dead Iraqi's. I had no idea the number was so high, they don't report that on tv. i saw on wikipedia the population of iraq is 29,267,000. i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

i'm not for or against bush, but i was shocked by the number of dead Iraqi's. I had no idea the number was so high, they don't report that on tv. i saw on wikipedia the population of iraq is 29,267,000. i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.

Then something is wrong with US media for sure. .. ... not to count fatilities as result of sanctions during Iraq I !

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

Then something is wrong with US media for sure. .. ... not to count fatilities as result of sanctions during Iraq I !

Martin Luther King, Jr. - Beyond Vietnam

"Our nation is somewhat sad, but we’re angry. There’s a certain level of blood lust, but we won’t let it drive our reaction. We’re steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon we’ll have to start displaying scalps."

~ George W. Bush

“Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

~ Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"Vietnam should remind conservatives that whenever you put your faith in big government for any reason, sooner or later you wind up an apologist for mass murder."

~ Karl Hess

“All this was inspired by the principle — which is quite true in itself — that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.”

~ Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

[AxdemxO]

I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality, just like Bush...and they will just post on and on how they are right and how your not as if theyr experts and know everything.

BUSH SUKS PERIOD.....not only is the US in Chaos because of him, but half the world is

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

i]-i still don't feel safer than i did right after 9/11, and i heard the taliban in afghanistan are stronger than before.

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality, just like Bush...and they will just post on and on how they are right and how your not as if theyr experts and know everything.

BUSH SUKS PERIOD.....not only is the US in Chaos because of him, but half the world is

This post is funny. Lambasting "ignorant folks" who "post on and on how they are right" and then ending with a "PERIOD". Not funny haha.

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by dude1394

This post is funny. Lambasting "ignorant folks" who "post on and on how they are right" and then ending with a "PERIOD". Not funny haha.

Yupp thats my opinion...I wont tell you tht you are wrong, stupid, or dont know what you are talking about, but if a few million possibly billion people think you are. Then you mite wana think about it

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...

He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."

- Mark Twain The Mysterious Stranger

“Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief

"Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth"

- Mark Twain

[AxdemxO]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Ending an illegal, unnecessary war against the citizens of Iraq = dishonoring soldiers???


My buddy in Iraq would disagree... He thinks people who blindly support this administration are the real ones dishonoring the troops by backing a war that many of our soldiers don't even believe in anymore - THEIR lives are the ones being put at risk for no good reason while OSAMA BIN LADEN IS ALIVE & WELL somewhere in the world (we're not even looking for that guy anymore!)... He says the only reason troops over there support the war is because they're in the middle of it - they HAVE to believe in it, otherwise they start losing limbs and lives...

He also says that out of the dozens of humans he's killed, very few (if any) were al Qaeda - most of the people he's engaged in combat have been "freedom fighters" (contrary to what our media reports) who simply want America out of their country... Imagine how you'd feel if every illegal immigrant in America had machine guns - would you just sit around and let them do whatever the hell they wanted to or would you blast them back to Mexico???

And mind you, we're not talking about some peace-nick here; my buddy is a killer (his word) for the US Army and LOVES what he does - when the Army needs folks dead, his unit is the first into combat... He loves America and our freedoms & would gladly die so you can sit safely behind your computer and suggest that his life would be be better spent terrorizing (his word) Iraqis than going after the people who had ANYTHING to do with 9/11 (our OWN government proved there was no connection between Iraq & al Qaeda until AFTER we invaded that country...)


I don't understand how you can equate "questioning tyranny" with "hating America" - if anything, pulling out of a war that should never have started in the first place is GOOD for this country... The war in Iraq isn't about fighting some abstract term such as "terrorism" (70% of al Qaeda operatives are in INDONESIA) - this war is about creating instability in the Middle East so Bush's private interests can suck up all the oil while the American people foot the bill (with OUR taxes and OUR lives...)

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

Wow mann GREAT POST...couldnt say it better

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

There is no exit strategy because the purpose of this war is to keep fighting the war - that is NOT what this country is about (and take your Nazi America-hating ass elsewhere if you think otherwise!)

Bullcrap...The exit strategy is and has always been to stand up the iraqi's so they can defend and govern themselves as a democracy. Same exit strategy that existed in japan, germany, korea, italy, etc.

This is where the left shows their ignorance(and hatred actually), this has never been a war for the sake of war (if so why did YOUR senator, representative vote for it). If you want to say it was ill-conceived, fine you can make a case, but when it gets into these EEEEEVVVVIIIILLLLL motives is when the left shows that they really are just unhinged.

IMO :
Oh and as aside I think it rich Axdexemo that you post this:

Yupp thats my opinion...I wont tell you tht you are wrong, stupid, or dont know what you are talking about, but if a few million possibly billion people think you are. Then you mite wana think about it

in defense of this one

I dont get into these discussions because theres a few ignorant people here who are soo out of touch with reality,

There may be a reason someone might be calling you a brick short of a load there budda'.

But back to it: (I've posted on this many times but for those who find it difficult to look at other threads).
After 9/11 the guvment tried to determine the best way to DEFEAT this terrorist threat of Al Queda that was being brought against us. You do realize that the WTC was planned to kill not 3,000 but greater than 30,000 people. This was no bus bombing that was going on here. If someone will kill 30,000 then I think they might just as well kill 3million.

So here was a terrorist attack that cost this county many billions of dollars in commerce in one day. I've seen some estimates of 500billion dollars by the reduction of our GDP 0.5 and 1.2 percentage points. A pretty big deal in other words.

Now how to DEFEAT it and protect ourselves from a possibly even more catastrophic attack. Not bring one dude to justice, but defeat it for your progreny. Presidents of most powerful nations on earth think in longer terms than their own election and popularity.

Enter the worst case scenario, a terrorist who is smart enough to hijack 4 planes simultaenously and take out the WTC and the pentagon with another one slated for either the White House or Congress.

Sadaam was about to come out of his box, he was a known supporter of terrorist activities and the US had been at war with him for almost 8 years. Many of the pre-eminent intelligence agencies believed he had WMD. You prepare for what the enemy CAN do, not what the enemy MIGHT do. So the thought of Saddam out of his box working with Al Queda was the worst case scenario.

However...the real long-term problem with terrorism in the world is the islamic countries and their bass-ackwards cultures. The lack of religious or political tolerance in those societies. Except for turkey few democracies anywhere.

So the strategy was to do a few things:
- Give Saddam an opportunity to abide by the UN resolutions and get rid of his WMD programs, if not take him out. Dubya goes to UN, gets resolution, goes to congress, gets resolution, goes to american people, gets re-elected, etc. No coup, no deception all pretty upfront.
- Foster a democracy in the middle of the Middle East. A prosperous non-sectarian democracy. To lance the boil as it were on the middle east, to hopefully open it up to political change.
- The belief that democracy is the normal state of mankind and that people who are governing themselves (instead of a lunatic dictator) would not engage in terrorist activities against their neighbor.

So that was the plan IMO. You can argue whether it was right or wrong or way to idealistic but that was the plan. Not to grab their oil, enrich halliburtion, get back at saddam or any of that other crap.

Just to try and DEFEAT terrorism for you and your progeny and in the meanwhile free millions of people being ruled by dictators and tyrants.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Bullcrap...The exit strategy is and has always been to stand up the iraqi's so they can defend and govern themselves as a democracy. Same exit strategy that existed in japan, germany, korea, italy, etc.

This is where the left shows their ignorance(and hatred actually), this has never been a war for the sake of war (if so why did YOUR senator, representative vote for it). If you want to say it was ill-conceived, fine you can make a case, but when it gets into these EEEEEVVVVIIIILLLLL motives is when the left shows that they really are just unhinged.

IMO :
Oh and as aside I think it rich Axdexemo that you post this:
in defense of this one

There may be a reason someone might be calling you a brick short of a load there budda'.

But back to it: (I've posted on this many times but for those who find it difficult to look at other threads).
After 9/11 the guvment tried to determine the best way to DEFEAT this terrorist threat of Al Queda that was being brought against us. You do realize that the WTC was planned to kill not 3,000 but greater than 30,000 people. This was no bus bombing that was going on here. If someone will kill 30,000 then I think they might just as well kill 3million.

So here was a terrorist attack that cost this county many billions of dollars in commerce in one day. I've seen some estimates of 500billion dollars by the reduction of our GDP 0.5 and 1.2 percentage points. A pretty big deal in other words.

Now how to DEFEAT it and protect ourselves from a possibly even more catastrophic attack. Not bring one dude to justice, but defeat it for your progreny. Presidents of most powerful nations on earth think in longer terms than their own election and popularity.

Enter the worst case scenario, a terrorist who is smart enough to hijack 4 planes simultaenously and take out the WTC and the pentagon with another one slated for either the White House or Congress.

Sadaam was about to come out of his box, he was a known supporter of terrorist activities and the US had been at war with him for almost 8 years. Many of the pre-eminent intelligence agencies believed he had WMD. You prepare for what the enemy CAN do, not what the enemy MIGHT do. So the thought of Saddam out of his box working with Al Queda was the worst case scenario.

However...the real long-term problem with terrorism in the world is the islamic countries and their bass-ackwards cultures. The lack of religious or political tolerance in those societies. Except for turkey few democracies anywhere.

So the strategy was to do a few things:
- Give Saddam an opportunity to abide by the UN resolutions and get rid of his WMD programs, if not take him out. Dubya goes to UN, gets resolution, goes to congress, gets resolution, goes to american people, gets re-elected, etc. No coup, no deception all pretty upfront.
- Foster a democracy in the middle of the Middle East. A prosperous non-sectarian democracy. To lance the boil as it were on the middle east, to hopefully open it up to political change.
- The belief that democracy is the normal state of mankind and that people who are governing themselves (instead of a lunatic dictator) would not engage in terrorist activities against their neighbor.

So that was the plan IMO. You can argue whether it was right or wrong or way to idealistic but that was the plan. Not to grab their oil, enrich halliburtion, get back at saddam or any of that other crap.

Just to try and DEFEAT terrorism for you and your progeny and in the meanwhile free millions of people being ruled by dictators and tyrants.

I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I like how you ignored 100% of my post except for the last line - it shows you don't want to have an open-minded discussion about the war so much as you want to list FOXNews' latest talking points... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...

And please don't lump me in with other people you're debating because I could give a shit less about "the left" - I don't identify myself as one of those people, so don't pretend like you know my politics, ideas, or opinions just because you know theirs...

This wasn't directed just at you specifically, it was an answer to many posts here about what I do/do not believe. I targeted your exit strategy because it's so over the top and ridiculous. It was a good springboard.

With respect to Foxnews I haven't watched it for about a year, so quit projecting what you THINK I am doing to what you think someone who disagrees with you thinks.

It's funny to me again (with you and aexm??) that you ping me for "lumping you somewhere" while you lump me with the "FOXNEWS talking points"

I've had this discussion many times, I"m not really interested in having it with someone who while whining that I neglected YOUR points, quoted my whole post and without addressing any of them either, because you feel that I should with baited-breath refute your pearls of wisdom.

I feel that most folks are engaging in monday-morning quarterbacking at best and basically trying to re-write motives/history at worst.

[kappasigma]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

you moron, no where did i say anything about the JOB that the troops were doing. They are doing their job, i know, my brother serves in the 1st Infantry Division from Fort Hood.

[kappasigma]

last i checked, the troops didn't create a war and the troops don't have finanical contributors who run defense companies who have become richer than your wilder dreams, while you support their cause, they make a killing (literally) and you pay all of your paycheck on high living expenses. what does KBR, aka Haliburton, have to do with the troops, or our safety? Oh but they got about 8 billion dollars in contracts in afghanistan alone to build what?........embassies & offices!

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I've had this discussion many times, I"m not really interested in having it with someone who while whining that I neglected YOUR points, quoted my whole post and without addressing any of them either, because you feel that I should with baited-breath refute your pearls of wisdom.

I believe I did address the entirety of your post when I said "we'll have to agree to disagree" - why would I bang my head against a wall presenting counter-points when you've already ignored what I had to say in my previous posts?

I could turn on FOXNews and scream at the TV with equal results (oh, and try not to copy FOXNews' talking points verbatim before you deny being influenced by them...)

[kappasigma]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There haven't been anymore terrorist attacks on US soil. And they have certainly been trying.

But you guys should continue to dishonor every brave American soldier, who has willingly and freely given up their freedom to become a target over there, so that you and your family don't have to be a target here.

Hating America is so cool.

maybe our culture and way of thought has to do with the fact that we are the only country who can't go 2 decades without a war. i think all countries get terrorist attacks, iraq gets terrorist attacks from israel, afghans get attacked from russians. Europeans get attacked. we are not the only ones, but we sure as hell profit bigtime when we do. maybe the arabs wouldn't hate us if we didn't supply israel with weapons and the green light to attack them, then we secretly arm and train the arabs, then tell israel about their setup. iran-iraq war, we support saddam and sell him weapons, then we secretly supply the iranians at the same time during the iran contra.

i think some of those guys might have the internet and were able to read on wikipedia about these things and they got pissed.

How about the terrorist attacks we face everyday here in north texas by illegal immigrants who can murder and have no way of being traced since they are not registered anywhere. illegal immigrant attack our neighborhoods killing a few at a time.







finally, the last thing i have to say is if we are the super power of the world and can't figure out a way to get rid of some arab in the caves of afghanistan without murdering millions of men, women and children, then we haven't progressed as a society.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

last i checked, the troops didn't create a war and the troops don't have finanical contributors who run defense companies who have become richer than your wilder dreams, while you support their cause, they make a killing (literally) and you pay all of your paycheck on high living expenses. what does KBR, aka Haliburton, have to do with the troops, or our safety? Oh but they got about 8 billion dollars in contracts in afghanistan alone to build what?........embassies & offices!

blah,blah,blah,halliburton,blah,blah,oil,blah,blah ,blah,clinton,blah,blah,kerry,blah,edwards,blah,bl ah, blair...

Look you want to say this was a foolish thing to do fine, but if you say it was so that someone could make money on it (while losing their lives, check out kbr employees, convoy drivers, etc.) then you being to sound like a lunatic.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I believe I did address the entirety of your post when I said "we'll have to agree to disagree" - why would I bang my head against a wall presenting counter-points when you've already ignored what I had to say in my previous posts?

I could turn on FOXNews and scream at the TV with equal results (oh, and try not to copy FOXNews' talking points verbatim before you deny being influenced by them...)

You can believe whatever you want, as I said I haven't seen foxnews in about a year, if my opinion matches what others who are on the show say, the so be it. My opinions are based on what I saw, read, observed, deduced, etc. I've also been quite influenced by VDH, Huffington, Bernard Lewis, steven den beste and there is a stellar current blog called backtalk that would help you reality-challenged folks to make up your own minds about things versus perusing the dailykos'kids.
http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

maybe our culture and way of thought has to do with the fact that we are the only country who can't go 2 decades without a war. i think all countries get terrorist attacks, iraq gets terrorist attacks from israel, afghans get attacked from russians. Europeans get attacked. we are not the only ones, but we sure as hell profit bigtime when we do. maybe the arabs wouldn't hate us if we didn't supply israel with weapons and the green light to attack them, then we secretly arm and train the arabs, then tell israel about their setup. iran-iraq war, we support saddam and sell him weapons, then we secretly supply the iranians at the same time during the iran contra.

I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.

[kappasigma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think you've shown me which side of the political spectrum you are on. Yea those mean old israelis trying to live without getting their children blown to smithereens or rockets dropped on them everyday. Hogwash.

And have we made up our 500billion dollars lost in the terrorist attacks yet. You libs really go off the deep end when you let your love of socialism and hatred of capitalism show.

Yea we are really treating those afghanis bad aren't we. Helping them rid themselves of the taliban, you know govern themselves, etc...all while only hoping they can get it together so we can leave 'em alone.

EVER HEARD OF CNN? TALIBAN HAS MORE TROOPS NOW THAN IN 2001.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

EVER HEARD OF CNN? TALIBAN HAS MORE TROOPS NOW THAN IN 2001.

LINK PLEASE!

All caps make me laugh.

[kappasigma]

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...030312/-1/NEWS

By Paul Brooks
Times Herald-Record
April 03, 2008

Afghanistan and Pakistan need more Islamic forces as well as additional European military might to calm the dangerous situation there, Rep. Maurice Hinchey said yesterday.

Hinchey, D-Hurley, spoke in a conference call from Washington, D.C., with reporters about his trip to the region last week.

He went with five other members of Congress.

"The Taliban are back in Afghanistan in significant numbers," Hinchey said. Yet some areas, such as Kabul, are stronger and more secure than any time since the Oct. 7, 2001, U.S. invasion, he said.

Conditions in parts of Pakistan are equally worrisome, Hinchey said, particularly the northwest sector that the Taliban and al-Qaida use as a sanctuary.

Hinchey said more competent Islamic forces are needed as well. But, equally important, the residents in sensitive regions need to see their lives improve to where they do not turn to radicalism, Hinchey said.

Yesterday, in Bucharest, Romania, as president Bush sat down for a summit with NATO leaders, the president expressed confidence that members of the alliance will bolster forces in Afghanistan.



there's hundreds of other articles.

the all caps was an accident. i agree with the all caps being gay.

[dude1394]

So if I read this right, there are more taliban in some areas, obviously less in others. Okay, I'll give you that.

What's your point again? That our invasion of afghanistan created more taliban? or what?

[kappasigma]

at least the poor afghans will have a pretty embancy with nice marble floors and beatiful landscape instead of hospitals! don't forget, afghans are not "the taliban" taliban are mix of people from surrounding regions, they speak a different language than the afghans. they've pretty much set up shop and taken over then country. people think afghans and taliban are the same.

[kappasigma]

my point is we spent 2 trillion dollars and we can't get rid of a bunch of troops with sling shots, sandles and camels. if we pay for something, lets get something in return. capitalism. we're paying and not getting much back. 2 trillion dollars back in our economy is much better than the $600 economic rebate we're hoping works

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

at least the poor afghans will have a pretty embancy with nice marble floors and beatiful landscape instead of hospitals! don't forget, afghans are not "the taliban" taliban are mix of people from surrounding regions, they speak a different language than the afghans. they've pretty much set up shop and taken over then country. people think afghans and taliban are the same.

hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

my point is we spent 2 trillion dollars and we can't get rid of a bunch of troops with sling shots, sandles and camels. if we pay for something, lets get something in return. capitalism. we're paying and not getting much back. 2 trillion dollars back in our economy is much better than the $600 economic rebate we're hoping works

Hmmm...2 trillion dollars...that's a lot? Care to provide me a link on that one?

Mine says 300billion.
http://www.cfr.org/publication/11943..._iraq_war.html

[kappasigma]

hmmmmmm......cost of freedom, refer to post were taliban is stronger

hmmmmmm....your sources are old, the 2 trillion number can be googled, its the project cost by 2010


hmmmmmm......thats the last thing i gotta say about this. u've proven your skills. here's a wonderful defense to anything anyone else says in the future.

freedom, democracy, terror, 9/11

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

hmmm...wonder how much that freedom's worth?

Freedom? What kind of Freedom???


Are you referring to the freedom for every US citizen to receive a fair trial?

The freedom for people to defend themselves against a tyrannical government?

Or are we talking about the good, old freedom of speech to question the government when there's reasonable suspicion of corruption?



(all links 100% Kos-free - those guys are on the opposite end of the same bullsh!t spectrum as FOX...)