Thanks, Bush, we really appreciate what you have done for us

[Chiwas]

(Should I have said "Thanks, Butch-er"?)

[dude1394]

wow....i'm speechless at this post.

[MavKikiNYC]

Very inappropriate, Chiwas--not to mention devoid of any semblance of objective truth or reality.

Your anger, indeed the world's anger, should be directed at the murderous fanatics who blow themselves up in proximity to innocent children and other civilians.

Beyond them, you can curse the corrupt Chiraqs, the opportunitistic Schroeders and the ball-less Zapateros who collaborate with, capitalize on and capitulate to the REAL murderers in the Middle East.

[capitalcity]

not cool.

[Mavdog]

The American troops are there to try and protect these civilians, they (and Bush) are not responsible for the fanatical murderers who ruthlessly sacrifice innocents in their quest for blood.

By your logic Chiwas we would also be responsible for any loss of life by Iraqis if we had left Hussein in power.

I have been critical of the invasion, but I also understand that we are knee deep in this conflict and must see it through to a conclusion where the people of Iraq are better off than before we attacked. It is clear that the Iraqis are giving their lives for a better tomorrow. Unfortunately it isn't coming soon enough to save these children.

It is unfortunate that this is happening and it is disturbing to see the carnage of innocent people and especially the children. No matter what each of us believe about why the invasion was launched, I know that we all want to see an end to the violence, and an end to the terrorism. That wil only be accomplished when these fanatics are found and removed, which quite frankly the Iraqis are currently unable to do on their own.

[madape]

Go to hell you piece of shit

[Rhylan]

Originally posted by: Chiwas
(Should I have said "Thanks, Butch-er"?)

So ridiculous that I'm quoting it to make sure it's still there in case you edit it later.

[Chiwas]

32 children died yesterday and here nobody cares.

If Bush hadn't start this ridiculous was on Iraq these children would have been alive today.

And the oil price is close to $60.

And 39,000 civil iraquies have died in this war.

And 2,000 or so American have died and here nobody cares.

This is so stupid. The war on terror is a masquerade.

Go to hell you piece of shit

Keep eating it again and again, while your teen-age dreams last.

The terrorism is not that people and that people is being murdered.

[mavsman55]

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

Check this out Chiwas.

Mavdog, very nice post.

[Drbio]

Chiwas....stop being an idiot.

[FishForLunch]

If only Bush had not thought bad thoughts about Muslims they would not have attacked Newyork in 9/11/2001. Here is what an Iraqi say's and not some Mexican who has no clue what the Islamists are tryingt to do to the west. It will not be long before they target Mexico and their infidel catholics.

Text

The "patriotic resistance" struck another strategic target in Iraq today.
They attacked Iraqi's hope and Iraq's reserves and future; they murdered Iraqi children again.

Those pathetic terrorists are afraid of the future and of the children that are going to grow up to build, plant, serve and protect their country.
No words can describe the ugliness of the massacre, no words can wipe the tears of the mothers who lost their loved ones today and no words can describe the difference between those handing sweets to the children and those handing death and pain.

The insane murderous servants of the tyrants think they can defeat us and protect their evil masters this way but they're wrong, the hand of justice will reach them just like it pulled their master from the rat hole.
The blood that was spilled today shall not go in vain and terrorists will lose and that is not going to be far from now.



Link

[dude1394]

I never really thought I would say that Molly Ivins had more honor than someone on this board, but I do now. Shame on this poster.

ivins

-----

Crow eaten here: This is a horror. In a column (Opinion, June 29) I asserted that more Iraqis (civilians) had now been killed in this war than had been killed by Saddam Hussein over his 24-year rule. Wrong. Really, really wrong.
The only problem is figuring out by how large a factor I was wrong. I had been keeping an eye on civilian deaths in Iraq for a couple of months, waiting for the most conservative estimates to creep over 20,000, which I had fixed in my mind as the number of Iraqi civilians Saddam had killed.
The high-end estimate of Iraqi civilian deaths in this war is 100,000, according to a Johns Hopkins University study published in the British medical journal The Lancet last October, but I was sticking to the low-end, most conservative estimates because I didn't want to be accused of exaggeration.

Ha! I could hardly have been more wrong, no matter how you count Saddam's killing of civilians. According to Human Rights Watch, Hussein killed several hundred thousand of his fellow citizens. The massacre of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in 1983 killed at least 8,000; the infamous gas attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja killed 5,000 in 1988; and seized documents from Iraqi security organizations show 182,000 were murdered during the Anfal ethnic cleansing campaign against Kurds, also in 1988.
In 1991, following the first Gulf War, both the Kurds and the Shiites rebelled. The allied forces did not intervene, and Saddam brutally suppressed both uprisings and drained the southern marshes that had been home to a local population for more than 5,000 years.
Saddam's regime left 271 mass graves, with more still being discovered. That figure alone was the source for my original mistaken estimate of 20,000. Saddam's widespread use of systematic torture, including rape, has been verified by the U.N. Committee on Human Rights and other human rights groups over the years.
There are wildly varying estimates of the number of civilians, especially babies and young children, who died as a result of the sanctions that followed the Gulf War. While it is true that the ill-advised sanctions were put in place by the United Nations, I do not see that that lessens Hussein's moral culpability, whatever blame attaches to the sanctions themselves - particularly since Saddam promptly corrupted the Oil for Food Program put in place to mitigate the effects of the sanctions, and used the proceeds to build more palaces, etc.
There have been estimates as high as 1 million civilians killed by Saddam, though most agree on the 300,000 to 400,000 range, making my comparison to 20,000 civilian dead in this war pathetically wrong.
I was certainly under no illusions regarding Saddam Hussein, whom I have opposed through human rights work for decades. My sincere apologies. It is unforgivable of me not to have checked. I am so sorry.

[madape]

I'm not even going to try to respond to this fool. Some people are just meant to wallow in their ignorance.

[Rhylan]

It amazes me that someone who writes as well-known a column as Molly Ivins wouldn't know that Saddam's regime had murdered at least a few hundred thousand Iraqi citizens. Hell, even I know that, and I'm just a dude who doesn't write a column.

But hey, she admitted her assumptions were wrong, and that's excellent. It still takes a staggering degree of ignorance to make the mistake in the first place, but that degree of ignorance is nothing compared to this pointless thread Chiwas started.

Seriously. There are tons and tons of reasonable reasons (even if they're mostly political) to oppose the Iraq war, even I'll admit. It's one thing to have an opinion... it's another thing to be a complete moron and make a statement like the one in the initial post of this thread. I'm sorry, there's no other way to put it but that.

Chiwas, I'm sorry your heart bleeds for everybody, but guess what? Jihadists' hearts don't bleed for anything - they could give a shit how anyone "feels" about what's going on. The murder will continue until someone stops them. Somebody had to step up and volunteer for the job. Thank goodnes for the USA, Britain, and others. I truly hope you don't represent the views of many Mexican citizens.

[dude1394]

What it really takes (and it happens a lot to the media, imo) is that there is an agenda that they are looking for. Ivins even admits it that she was waiting for a certain number to be passed before writing her column. Her mind was made up as to what she wanted to say, she just convinced herself that she was finally correct.

However, my estimation of her integrity has gone up with that post.

[Usually Lurkin]

Before this terrible war, there was a system for disposing of troublesome minorities:



actual torture for the control of prisoners:



and a plan for the youth:





Yet, some blockheaded people still support what the US is doing. These must be a couple of neo-con oil cronies from Texas.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Nice post, UL. Chiwas, you must be one of those many people that hold the naively simplistic view of "war is not the answer." War surely isn't always the answer, and maybe it isn't in this case. I think we're doing the right thing, but we're certainly all entitled to our opinions. But when you show photos like that and start throwing around slogans about dead children, then you're talking about something else entirely. You're talking about the very nature of war itself, every war. I guarantee if you look around a little bit, you'll probably find plenty of photos similar to that one, of European and Japanese civilians that were devastated by the Allied bombing of their countries. But thus is the nature of war; it doesn't mean we did the wrong thing by invading Japan, or Nazi-controlled Europe. If you believe this war is wrong, that's fine, but showing a picture like that certainly isn't sufficient evidence to validate your opinon. Actually, it discredits your opinion by simplifying it to the point of being hoplessly unrealistic.

[dude1394]

Terrorists, commmunists, nazis have alwasy counted on the "useful idiots" in free western societies. Their strange guilt leads them to believe that somehow their own societies are responsible for the thugs and monsters in the world. To somehow equate moral equivalence between the US's actions in Bosnia, '91, Operation Iraqi' freedom to a monstrous suicide bomber that would target 26 children getting candy is to have a very confused sense of morality, very confused.

[Murphy3]

One thing is for sure. You can always count on Chiwas for a well thought out political post.

[capitalcity]

Memo lists possible border terror plot

11:03 PM CDT on Saturday, July 16, 2005

By ALFREDO CORCHADO and JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News

Dirt roads trace pale lines across a desolate landscape of bald peaks and plunging canyons near Texas' Big Bend and bridge the border at dozens of improvised crossings. For decades, these routes have been used to smuggle drugs and humans. Now there is growing concern they could become deadly conduits for terrorism.

The concern is buttressed by a confidential but unclassified FBI intelligence bulletin, obtained by The Dallas Morning News, that contains the vague outlines of a possible terrorist plot.

Officials from both sides of the border played down the possible threat but acknowledged that it is the sort of scenario they have to guard against. The prospect of terrorists crossing the southern border has been a rising concern among officials in Texas and Washington.

The plot, according to uncorroborated information provided by an FBI informant, involves a man, described as an Arab who goes by the nickname "El Español," and Ernesto Zatarín Beliz, also known as El Traca, suspected of being a Mexican drug trafficker and member of the Zetas, the feared enforcers of the notorious Gulf cartel.

"El Español is gathering truck drivers with knowledge of truck routes in the United States and explosive experts" in the state of Coahuila, according to the March 11 memo, which originated in the San Diego FBI office and was made available by a U.S. attorney's office. The informant "believes that the activity in Coahuila, Mexico, is terrorist related."

In exchange for the Zetas' help in recruiting drivers, the memo says, the Arab – who barely speaks Spanish – promised to help them fund and execute a plan to free Gulf cartel leader Osiel Cárdenas from prison. The Gulf cartel is embroiled in a bloody turf war with rival traffickers for control of Nuevo Laredo, a key drug smuggling route into the U.S.

According to the FBI memo, El Traca was attempting to recruit a security guard at a Mexican government explosives factory in Cuatro Ciénegas, Coahuila, to assist with the Arab's plan. The region is known for producing nitric acid and ammonium nitrate, materials that are used for industrial and agricultural purposes and can also be ingredients for explosives.

The informant has "provided reliable narcotics intelligence in the past," the bulletin says, but it adds that the informant also flunked two polygraph tests.

The San Diego FBI analyst who wrote the document declined to comment. The division's spokeswoman said publication of such sensitive information would undermine the bureau's mission.

"We are trying to protect national security," said Special Agent Jan Caldwell. "We can't do that when things like this are put in newspapers."

A senior Mexican intelligence official said the information in the memo had not been corroborated.

"The informant paved a road that led nowhere," the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. He added that Mexican federal agents spent "literally weeks chasing down the information, only to come up empty-handed."

Points confirmed

However, the Mexican intelligence official confirmed the identity of El Traca as Mr. Zatarín and said El Español was a known human trafficker, specializing in smuggling Middle Easterners and South Americans, particularly Brazilians and Paraguayans.

Mexican authorities have been unable to track down El Español, the official said.
DallasNews.com/extra

DiscussLive: Sen. John Cornyn chats about immigration policy Wednesday at 2:45 p.m.
• Send advance questions to chat@dallasnews.com.

According to the March FBI bulletin, Mexican authorities arrested Mr. Zatarín in September 2003 and found an arsenal of assault rifles in his residence, described by Mexican authorities as a "bunker utilized by Los Zetas." Mr. Zatarín later escaped, however, and his picture and name are now on a poster listing Mexico's most-wanted criminals.

"FBI intelligence indicates that Los Zetas are becoming increasingly involved in systematic corruption as well as alien smuggling ... [including] special interest aliens to the U.S.," the bulletin concludes.

Since the 2001 terrorist attacks, the Bush administration and members of Congress from both parties have viewed the southern border as a weak link in efforts to keep terrorists out of the United States, even though the 9-11 terrorists entered the country with visas, some legal, others forged.

"That's been the concern all along, that there would be a bargain struck between al-Qaeda or some [other] terrorist organization and these organized crime networks that would allow terrorists to be smuggled into the country," U.S. Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said in an interview. "I think that's a very real concern."

At a hearing Tuesday of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the chairman, Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., said: "Given the threat of international terrorism, there is great concern that our land borders could also serve as a channel for international terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. The threat of terrorist penetration is particularly acute along our southern border."

Senior U.S. officials added that other criminal groups such as the Mara Salvatrucha – the Central American gang that has moved into several U.S. cities and has a growing presence along the U.S.-Mexico border – also are a top concern for U.S. authorities.

Mr. Lugar said 3,000 to 4,000 of the 119,000 non-Mexican immigrants apprehended so far this year trying to cross illegally into the U.S. were from "countries of interest" such as Somalia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. That number is up from 75,371 for all of 2004 and is expected to reach 148,000 by fiscal year's end.

Adm. James Loy, former Homeland Security deputy secretary, declined to comment on the specific plot outlined in the FBI memo, but earlier this year he suggested that such a threat is real.

"Entrenched human-smuggling networks and corruption in areas beyond our borders can be exploited by terrorist organizations," Mr. Loy said in written testimony at a congressional hearing in February. "Several al-Qaeda leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons."

Easier elsewhere?

But law enforcement officials discounted the suggestion that terrorists would use the rugged Big Bend area to transport explosives – especially in a tractor-trailer that would glaringly stand out.

"I think there would be easier ways to get explosives inside the United States,"said Benjamine Carry Huffman, assistant chief patrol agent for U.S. Customs and Border Protection in Marfa. He pointed out that Interstate 10 is a two-hour drive from the border area of Presidio but that there was immediate access to it in El Paso.

But the intelligence bulletin noted that the alleged terrorist plot, as relayed by the informant, was still a work in progress, leaving open the possibility that less conspicuous vehicles might be employed. And the FBI memo said that "one possible smuggling route Traca wanted to use was through Big Bend National Park."

The border patrol's Marfa sector is its largest, covering 510 miles of border with Mexico, including part of Big Bend National Park, and bordering the Mexican states of Chihuahua and Coahuila. With some 200 agents, it has the smallest force of any sector along the Mexican border, according to Bill Brooks, the sector spokesman.

Much of the area is desert and mountainous terrain, dotted by at least a dozen informal crossings known as Class B ports of entry. These consist of makeshift bridges capable of carrying foot and some lighter vehicle traffic. Authorities tried to seal them off after Sept. 11, 2001, but several have been re-established. Officials acknowledged that agents cannot regularly police the informal crossings.

"Who ever imagined that terrorists would use passenger planes to crash into tall buildings?" Mr. Hoffman said. "After Sept. 11, we have to operate on a different mindset, one in which we take absolutely nothing for granted. Is it possible terrorists can come across this border with explosives or a dirty bomb? Absolutely."

[Underdog]

I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???

Originally Posted by Chiwas

And the oil price is close to $60.

And 39,000 civil iraquies have died in this war.

And 2,000 or so American have died and here nobody cares.

Price of oil - $105/barrel

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded)

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)




But who cares?
(hint: not you)

[Ninkobei]

is that number correct? 1.2 million dead iraqis? oh my..

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

is that number correct? 1.2 million dead iraqis? oh my..

The US government puts the number at 90,184, but our allies in the UK say otherwise:

It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on a scientific study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.

That study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then.

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still)

Who are we fighting?

and

What are the terms for victory?

are questions that rarely get a clear answer.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Who are we fighting?

and

What are the terms for victory?

are questions that rarely get a clear answer.

The answers to your questions are very simple:


Q. Who are we fighting?
A. Terrorism.

Q. What are the terms for victory?
A. You're starting to sound like a terrorist...


Hell, Dirkadirkastan even sounds like a terrorist name!
(because Muslim/Middle Eastern = Terrorist)

[bernardos70]

"We from Kazakhstan support your war of terror! May George Bush drink the blood of every man, woman, and child in Iraq!"

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by mavsman55

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.....

Check this out Chiwas.

Mavdog, very nice post.

But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.

Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

[Underdog]

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by Arne

Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

I said i held Paul and Cain for more authentic than Hill and Obama.

Glad we have such intelligent people over here ( in good old germany ).

Your better. Arne wins !

[Dim499]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

But the right state should have been chosen. Not a single Iraqi did fly.

What are you doing dude? How old are you?

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by Dim499

What are you doing dude? How old are you?

What do you exactly mean, i´m doing ? Just wanted to point out, no / or just one Iraqi did fly on Sept. 11.

[Dim499]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

What do you exactly mean, i´m doing ? Just wanted to point out, no / or just one Iraqi did fly on Sept. 11.

Are you seriously trying to convince these people tht the war wasn't a good idea, using questionable grammar no less? Don't anger these people.
You're so much better off just coming here for basketball. I prefer not to know what Flacolaco thinks of poor people or the Kyoto protocol. And you should roll the same way.
Have you never seen Back to the Future?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I love these old posts - I wonder if some of you still have the same opinion 3 years later???

Price of oil - $105/barrel === Do you believe global warming is happening, if so then what the hell are you bitching about? It's called economics moron.

Dead Iraqi Civilians - 1,196,514 - bull****

Dead American Troops - 4,013 (29,296 wounded) - heroes all

Exit Strategy - ZERO (still) - sure there is it's just not the
---- run away and let all of our iraqi allies be tortured to death.




But who has enough brains to comprehend reality?
(hint: not you)

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

The US government puts the number at 90,184, but our allies in the UK say otherwise:

err..the Lancet is far from our UK alliies. They are hmmm...whaddya' call 'em...like discredited.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Arne

Hmm and then you think McCain would be a fine president, even though he want's the US to stay there for a hundred years if neccesary?

Which part of "if necessary" do you not understand? How long should we stay in Korea? How long should we stay in nato? etc.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

But who has enough brains to comprehend reality?
(hint: not you)

Mudslinging backed by zero content???

You should run for office!


EDIT: maybe as a Democrat...

[Arne]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Which part of "if necessary" do you not understand? How long should we stay in Korea? How long should we stay in nato? etc.

There's no exit strategy, there'S no enemy except for terrorism, which is a tactic, not a people. If you want to stop terrorism, then you first have to understand the incentives for these people.

If you want to start a new crusade then just go on like right now.

[Dim499]

Originally Posted by Arne

There's no exit strategy, there'S no enemy except for terrorism, which is a tactic, not a people. If you want to stop terrorism, then you first have to understand the incentives for these people.

If you want to start a new crusade then just go on like right now.

oh boy...

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by Dim499

Are you seriously trying to convince these people tht the war wasn't a good idea, using questionable grammar no less? Don't anger these people.
You're so much better off just coming here for basketball. I prefer not to know what Flacolaco thinks of poor people or the Kyoto protocol. And you should roll the same way.
Have you never seen Back to the Future?

Your words are very wise. Indeed you are right. Your shouldn´t step into discussion if you are not always able to find the right words.

But it wasn´t my intention to convince the people what was right or not. I just wanted to pronounce that Iraq wasn´t involved. And i´m interested in what am. folks think.

But never the less, you´re right. Back to Basketball.

p.s. I ´m for Kyoto, but i for myself was shooting along the A8 with a 911 at 250 kmh. All human beings