12-5: Mavs don't crash the boards in Cleveland

[Lor20]

lack of effort.. especially on the boards cost us this game. noone on the mvs roster played good d tonight... offense wasnt bad really... some shots were stupid (singleton for 3 to close the half?) but overall offense was ok(other than getting barely any offensive boards unless they dropped into our hands).
the team lost this one. there isnt any player alone to blame. our defensive rotations were to slow and we left them way to open in the paint too often.
with ross and howard out we were forced into the 3 guard mess for long stretches again and got abused for it (if everyone is healthy i never want to see terry and JJ on the floor together other than in garbage time).
This is a game to forgive and forget.... and to get back on track on monday

[jthig32]

It's becoming pointless to even read the post game threads anymore. Honest-to-God people, do you all have one track minds? Is there anything you can do to move past the Barea obsession? If you just have to pick a skapegoat from last night to make yourself feel better, take a look at Mr. Gooden. He's obviously going to struggle defensively against a player like Shaq, but he's supposed to make him pay offensively. And he certainly didn't come close to doing that.

Barea provided a nice offensive spark in the first half when we were really struggling. He obviously got abused defensively, as the Cavs are setup better than most to make a team pay for not having length at the wings. The Mavs were forced to go to a zone whenever Lebron was on the floor while Marion wasn't. The problem with that is the Cavs have some absolutely dead-eye three point shooters. It's a recipe for disaster.

The team was simply out-manned and got beat. It happens. Gooden was awful, Thomas was awful, Roddy was meh, Humphries was meh, Barea was helpful offensively but couldn't be hidden defensively.

Did anyone honestly expect to win this game? We've been getting by without our full roster for a while now, but you are just not going to beat the Cavs with no center and with only one guy even remotely physically capable of guarding Lebron.

[Murphy3]

Yep...someone said "bring on the Cavs" a few days back. What in the heck? This team is thriving but also barely surviving at times despite the injuries. The Mavs have been very fortunate that they've had a relatively easy schedule so far...

[DirktyBlue]

If a healthy Howard and Damp had played, would we have won it?

Barea receives so much attention because he is the point guard (most of the time)...he controls the ball a lot and is involved in most of the plays. So he is the poster child for all the bashing the team receives when they don't play well.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by Kante

I thought he was doing ok in D against Shaq. In my eyes...

TBH, Shaq really didn't do anything besides draw those 4 consecutive fouls to start the 4th. 9 points, 6 points, 4 assists, and 4 turnovers is not really much of a night.

However, TT didn't play well on offense, and according to db.com, he had tweaked his back before that game.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

LeKing had an airballed finger-roll, too. How many times has that one played over on your mental screen?

Then LeBron missed an easy shot, just like JJ did. At least LeBron makes shots no one should make for his team. For JJ, he has make the most of every opportunity he gets, and he can't be blowing easy chances.

I don't hate JJ, as I've said many times. I hate the way he's used, though. JJ cannot defend starting caliber (and especially all-star caliber) point guards anymore. That's OK, because JJ is a second-teamer and in theory should not be facing the CP3's, the Mo William's, the Tony Parker's, or the Deron Williams' very often if he is used correctly. And he will often make up for his poor defense with good offensive play.

However, Carlisle seems to think that JJ is a key asset to use at all points in the game. As a result, JJ has to go up against starting-caliber players who he cannot defend. He gets killed, people get mad at JJ, but really I believe the problem is RC playing JJ to start with in situations he can't handle.

Now, I know Carlisle doesn't exactly have a ton of options right now. Josh and Ross are both injured, and Roddy is a rookie from France who can barely even speak English. Its not that JJ is out in the 4th quarter that makes me mad, because Carlisle doesn't have a ton of options. Its that even when he performs poorly, Rick leaves him out there. And the other teams notices their success attacking Barea, and they continue to exploit it, and RC continues to leave him out there. Barea can't change the fact that he's 5'10" and he can't change how RC uses him, but he is still criticized for it.

[Murphy3]

....I'm now to the point to where I skip all posts concerning JJ. It's to the point to where way more than half are poorly thought out or poorly written. And no, I'm not talking about the post directly above me (tcat).. I didn't read it, so I wouldn't know.

[horse900703]

ugly loss......

[Usually Lurkin]

-eh. We're missing half our starting lineup. Who expects to beat a championship caliber team when you are missing half your starting lineup?

[RareMilk]

Shaq or Lebron or both should come to Dallas. And play for us while they are here

[LSMF]

Im happy I missed the game, sounds like a piss poor effort was given on rebounding and defense. This team better not lose to the M'F*cking Nets on Wednesday.

[G-Man]

Shaq may have only scored 9, but he demanded double teams that opened the floor for a barrage of 3's...the Cavs hit 70% of them.

This was an ugly loss. Hard to believe that Dirk, Jet, Marion, Humph and JJB all shot over 50%. But the Cavs as a team shot 70%.

I think a healthy Mavs team matches up with the Cavs pretty well. Damp will neutralize Shaq,as he has for years. If he's not being double teamed, the 3 point shooters will not be open as much. Plus we'd have 2 more quality defenders to cover them.

The Mavs have done well to win with injuries so far this year. To expect to beat a healthy, elite team on the road is a bit much. And to blame the loss on JJB, rather than the lack of Damp, Josh and Ross shows more prejudice than insight.

[CadBane]

It's a two-way street. There are certain posters on this board who have not ONE time admitted JJB has had a horrible, let alone "bad" game. It's funny how you sugar-coat things Jthig.

"The team was simply out-manned and got beat. It happens. Gooden was awful, Thomas was awful, Roddy was meh, Humphries was meh, Barea was helpful offensively but couldn't be hidden defensively."

So those guys were awful...but JJB was helpful on offensive and couldn't be hidden on defense? That's interesting writing. So you couldn't say JJB was bad, or JJB was solid on offense, but awful on defense? You go out of your way to make an excuse or pre-cursor for JJB. He "couldn't be hidden defensively". Yes, that tends to be true when you play a lousy defender.

[Kidd Karma]

I think shooting is contagious. There was a few times where we came down to double Shaq only to see Shaq dish it back out for a wide open jumper, once those early shots hit bottom, the Cavs had confidence. They are an intelligent bunch. If the outside shooting isn't going, LBJ will take the ball to the cup, same with Parker and Williams. I think if you go conventional on them, 1-5, you solve them, they will take apart teams that go small. You got a guy like LBJ who can play 1-4 it makes it very difficult to go small. With our injuries, we did not have many options. Would be nice if we can somehow change Shawne Williams into a player.

[EricaLubarsky]

Cadbane, its selective viewing. Any other player has a deficiency and you tend to forget that. You select a backup player and harp on his defense. JJB is a backup player that has had to play more minutes than he should be but has played his hardest in many games. Sometimes he just doesnt have the right body to really challenge shots, other times he's just beat. In my estimation he only really fails 10-20% of the time. You really can't fault a guy for his body shape/size nor can you fault him for the time he plays when its not his choice.

Jthig is absolutely right on this one and I agree with everything except his analysis that we werent supposed to win this one. Without two starters and an offensive-spark player we were goingt o have a rough time but with better chemistry and focus we had every chance to get back into this one and win it. We just bobbled it up every time we had a chance, even during the stretch that we forced consecutive TOs and got it down to 7. Being on the road against a good team without 3 key pieces with role players knocking down shots at a ridiculous rate we were going to have a rought time but we showed we absolutely could win it. This was a loss chalked up to lack of focus and mental errors. I just hope we get better mental focus and leadership in the future but its slightly less concerning because it was a B2B.

JJB is a backup. If you have a problem with him, you have a problem with Carlisle or a problem with the roster, or maybe you are just negative and jumping on the anti-JJB bandwagon without any logical reason at all.

[Kidd Karma]

I'm not saying bringing Williams back, but ship him out for a live body. When we have these spate of injuries and RC does not trust Carroll, it hurts our team. I don't think packing Carroll and Williams now will hurt our trade status later in the season, we still have Gooden's instant expiring and Howard's expiring in our back pocket.

[EricaLubarsky]

The 15th roster spot doesnt matter much, neither does the #14 (Carroll). Even with three players out (Damp, Howard, Thomas) we still have a solid 10 man rotation which is honestly just fine. No team out there would have a solid 10 man rotation with two starters and a contributing bench guy injured. If you can get something for Williams or get rid of Carroll then you do it, but there is no urgency at all. What we need is chemistry, , mental focus and a little bit of luck getting guys healthy. That is all.

On top of that, we let a game slip through our hands that we had every opportunity to win with those three out, while on a B2B, in one of the most hostile arenas in the league, against a team with a chip on its shoulder.

We didnt lose because our roster was thin (although having a couple of players healthy would have helped). We didn't lose because JJB is a turd. We didn't lose because we need 15 guys capable of contributing. We lost because we just didnt put in the effort and had way more mental errors than any team could have had in a win.

This was one of those incredibly challenging games that we had an opportunity to win but didnt because of mental errors. There's not much to take away from that for the future other than the fact that we need to work on chemistry, defense and need to work on our discipline when tired.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

We didnt lose because our roster was thin (although having a couple of players healthy would have helped). We didn't lose because JJB is a turd. We didn't lose because we need 15 guys capable of contributing. We lost because we just didnt put in the effort and had way more mental errors than any team could have had in a win. ...

I would think that starters (2 of whom are out) generally give more effort and make fewer mental errors than those who are not starters. Having 2 more players at the top of a 10 man rotation also helps the contributers put in more effort and make fewer errors at the end of 4 games in 4 cities in 5 nights.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by CadBane

There are certain posters on this board who have not ONE time admitted JJB has had a horrible, let alone "bad" game.

Maybe one poster...I seldom see ANY player not get criticized here. The JJB ranting is just redundant and tiring. It's become some sort of silly crusade, as if anyone on the mavs bench is listening to this.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by CadBane

It's a two-way street. There are certain posters on this board who have not ONE time admitted JJB has had a horrible, let alone "bad" game. It's funny how you sugar-coat things Jthig.

"The team was simply out-manned and got beat. It happens. Gooden was awful, Thomas was awful, Roddy was meh, Humphries was meh, Barea was helpful offensively but couldn't be hidden defensively."

So those guys were awful...but JJB was helpful on offensive and couldn't be hidden on defense? That's interesting writing. So you couldn't say JJB was bad, or JJB was solid on offense, but awful on defense? You go out of your way to make an excuse or pre-cursor for JJB. He "couldn't be hidden defensively". Yes, that tends to be true when you play a lousy defender.

wtf. It's clearly not a two way street because the complaint is that every single conversation is being reframed into what Barea did or did not do. There's one poster on this entire board that constantly reframes the dialogue into that, and it's you. I don't know what gives with your obsession, or your bizarre claim to have read every one of these "certain poster's" thousands on thousands of posts. But you are a serious hinderance to any hopes of intelligent dialogue on this board when you consistently keep shuffling intelligent conversation into "lets enumerate all the things Barea did wrong today regardless of what actually happened in the game" mode.

[nowhereman]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Maybe one poster...I seldom see ANY player not get criticized here. The JJB ranting is just redundant and tiring. It's become some sort of silly crusade, as if anyone on the mavs bench is listening to this.

+1

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The JJB ranting is just redundant and tiring..

entirely. Both pro- and con-. Defending a bench player against every single criticism is just as bad as blaming that player for every loss.

[badfish22]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's becoming pointless to even read the post game threads anymore. Honest-to-God people, do you all have one track minds? Is there anything you can do to move past the Barea obsession? If you just have to pick a skapegoat from last night to make yourself feel better, take a look at Mr. Gooden. He's obviously going to struggle defensively against a player like Shaq, but he's supposed to make him pay offensively. And he certainly didn't come close to doing that.

Barea provided a nice offensive spark in the first half when we were really struggling. He obviously got abused defensively, as the Cavs are setup better than most to make a team pay for not having length at the wings. The Mavs were forced to go to a zone whenever Lebron was on the floor while Marion wasn't. The problem with that is the Cavs have some absolutely dead-eye three point shooters. It's a recipe for disaster.

The team was simply out-manned and got beat. It happens. Gooden was awful, Thomas was awful, Roddy was meh, Humphries was meh, Barea was helpful offensively but couldn't be hidden defensively.

Did anyone honestly expect to win this game? We've been getting by without our full roster for a while now, but you are just not going to beat the Cavs with no center and with only one guy even remotely physically capable of guarding Lebron.

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

JJB is a backup. If you have a problem with him, you have a problem with Carlisle or a problem with the roster, or maybe you are just negative and jumping on the anti-JJB bandwagon without any logical reason at all.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Instead of that dreck, why don't you try saying something insightful?

Originally Posted by dude1394

Maybe one poster...I seldom see ANY player not get criticized here. The JJB ranting is just redundant and tiring. It's become some sort of silly crusade, as if anyone on the mavs bench is listening to this.

The ranting about the JJB ranting is also getting tiresome.

[DavidDaMonkey]

The ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting is getting tiresome.

[chumdawg]

I assume I am the certain other poster, since Cadbane clearly has a hard-on for me. Hey, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not someone who enjoys rooting for the underdog story, particularly when it comes to the Mavericks. I've been on a quite a few bandwagons, including those of Benga, Pops, and Barea. And yes, I do very much relish positive contributions from guys like that when they do come to pass.

The difference is, though, that I don't think I have ever watched a poor, or even ordinary, contribution from the likes of those players--and yes, they do happen, all the time--and come out cheerleading regardless.

On the flip side, you have a contingent that routinely this year watches positive, or even ordinary, contributions by Barea--and yes, those also happen from time to time--and comes out calling for his head anyway.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by DavidDaMonkey

The ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting is getting tiresome.

The posting about the ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting is getting tiresome too.

[badfish22]

Originally Posted by DavidDaMonkey

The ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting is getting tiresome.

So is the ranting about the ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting.


Btw the Alternate Blues have been defeated.
So do we burn them and never speak of them again?

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

wtf. It's clearly not a two way street because the complaint is that every single conversation is being reframed into what Barea did or did not do. There's one poster on this entire board that constantly reframes the dialogue into that, and it's you. I don't know what gives with your obsession, or your bizarre claim to have read every one of these "certain poster's" thousands on thousands of posts. But you are a serious hinderance to any hopes of intelligent dialogue on this board when you consistently keep shuffling intelligent conversation into "lets enumerate all the things Barea did wrong today regardless of what actually happened in the game" mode.

I don't think you understand the term "two way street". I don't think you understand a lot of simple things though. I mentioned how our bench had ONE single rebound. No one really wanted to talk about that I guess.

[CadBane]

"Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
If Dirk would have moved his feet on defense, we might have had a chance tonight."

From the gamethread. So I'm an idiot with a bias agenda for ever thinking JJB's defense has cost us a game. Coming from someone who says this. Interesting. Very interesting. Hi pot. Hi kettle.

[bigcat]

Originally Posted by CadBane;

"Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
If Dirk would have moved his feet on defense, we might have had a chance tonight."

From the gamethread. So I'm an idiot with a bias agenda for ever thinking JJB's defense has cost us a game. Coming from someone who says this. Interesting. Very interesting. Hi pot. Hi kettle.

the difference is though, dirk is more than capable of moving his feet on defense, and not letting freaking varejao looks dominant. ok, it's 4th game on 5th night, but i had no problem with "dirk sucked on defense last night". same with "gooden was awfaul last night"

[nowhereman]

Give it up man. You've shown your true colors. You keep calling out JJ and when people, which is usually a good portion of this board, defend him you explode about how everyone keeps bringing up JJ. Just give it up. I'm so done with you.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Give it up man. You've shown your true colors. You keep calling out JJ and when people, which is usually a good portion of this board, defend him you explode about how everyone keeps bringing up JJ. Just give it up. I'm so done with you.

Actually a good portion of this board has been slamming JJB and it's not even close. You're a delusional hypocrite. Why do you fly off the handle when someone has the "audacity" to assert JJB cost us a game (based on obvious poor play and stats), yet you turn around and claim Dirk cost us a game with bad defense? Well, I guess because, like I said, you're in fact a delusional hypocrite.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I would think that starters (2 of whom are out) generally give more effort and make fewer mental errors than those who are not starters. Having 2 more players at the top of a 10 man rotation also helps the contributers put in more effort and make fewer errors at the end of 4 games in 4 cities in 5 nights.

Hopefully you're not talking about Howard when mentioning effort and fewer mental errors.. He's not really that consistent with either.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Actually a good portion of this board has been slamming JJB and it's not even close. You're a delusional hypocrite. Why do you fly off the handle when someone has the "audacity" to assert JJB cost us a game (based on obvious poor play and stats), yet you turn around and claim Dirk cost us a game with bad defense? Well, I guess because, like I said, you're in fact a delusional hypocrite.

I think part of your problem is that you are reading things that aren't there. Nowhereman made an observation that a different sort of defense from Dirk might have given us a chance to change the outcome, which is one thing (and a legitimate analysis, at that). You transformed that into "Dirk cost us a game with bad defense," which is an entirely different thing altogether (and very poor analysis, at that).

That should be enough for you to chew on. But if you need more, characterizing Barea's contributions as "obviously poor play" brings your own subjective judgments into play. What is "obvious" to you may be the complete opposite of what someone else sees. This is often true, by the way, for all of us. As such, the constant pushing of your--and really anyone's--subjective judgments is naturally grating.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Hopefully you're not talking about Howard when mentioning effort and fewer mental errors.. He's not really that consistent with either.

unfortunately for us all, I have not been gm the last couple of years.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by badfish22

So is the ranting about the ranting about the ranting about the JJB ranting.


Btw the Alternate Blues have been defeated.
So do we burn them and never speak of them again?

I say we use them like an actual alternate jersey and wear them every once in a while instead of every road game like we have lately. The league allows alternates to be worn 15 times a year, and i think they've been worn 14 already jeez.

[xavier]

just when I think we start getting it together and look really good for the end of the season, we just have a mulitple personality and drop the ball. If we want to play aginst the best in the playoffs, well hell we got to beat them in the regular season.
FYI: Every game i've missed we loose and every game I watch we win.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I think part of your problem is that you are reading things that aren't there. Nowhereman made an observation that a different sort of defense from Dirk might have given us a chance to change the outcome, which is one thing (and a legitimate analysis, at that). You transformed that into "Dirk cost us a game with bad defense," which is an entirely different thing altogether (and very poor analysis, at that).

That should be enough for you to chew on. But if you need more, characterizing Barea's contributions as "obviously poor play" brings your own subjective judgments into play. What is "obvious" to you may be the complete opposite of what someone else sees. This is often true, by the way, for all of us. As such, the constant pushing of your--and really anyone's--subjective judgments is naturally grating.

Sometimes it is what is is.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DAL1.HTM

He's shooting under 40%, his eFG% in the clutch is 16%, and we're giving up TWELVE more points per 100 possessions on defense with JJB.

I've never said he's been bad every game, in fact I acknowledged his good games a few times this year. But fact is, he's been BAD for the most part this year. He has, for the most part, played poorly and been overplayed (and yes, even with the injuries, he has been overplayed, and yes, that is on RC, but no, it does not excuse JJB's poor play).

It's not as though I'm just hating on him for no reason, or my expression of displeasure is through no discernment on the games or take on the facts. He's simply not played well. I don't know why it's so difficult to comprehend that people on this board have been upset with JJB, because he is in fact culpable of being upset with.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Sometimes it is what is is.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09DAL1.HTM

He's shooting under 40%, his eFG% in the clutch is 16%, and we're giving up TWELVE more points per 100 possessions on defense with JJB.

I've never said he's been bad every game, in fact I acknowledged his good games a few times this year. But fact is, he's been BAD for the most part this year. He has, for the most part, played poorly and been overplayed (and yes, even with the injuries, he has been overplayed, and yes, that is on RC, but no, it does not excuse JJB's poor play).

It's not as though I'm just hating on him for no reason, or my expression of displeasure is through no discernment on the games or take on the facts. He's simply not played well. I don't know why it's so difficult to comprehend that people on this board have been upset with JJB, because he is in fact culpable of being upset with.

The problem is that you are relying on these stats as an end-all-be-all, when the stats need to be interpreted to have any meaning. The stats you offer as evidence actually do say that Barea is more effective on defense than he is on offense. That runs counter to your argument.

Barea is going to have net negatives in all of these stats just because of when he plays. When you appreciate that, we willl have gone a long way toward figuring out this disagreement.

EDIT: My apologies, I misread the stats you cited. I took his defensive efficiency to be positive relative to his offensive efficiency, when in fact it is negative.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Barea is going to have net negatives in all of these stats just because of when he plays. When you appreciate that, we willl have gone a long way toward figuring out this disagreement.

Barea's +12 on defense is the worst on the team. The floor time stats say he's on the court 48% of the time.

[I just don't get the Barea hoopla. Are you trying to argue that Barea is not a weak spot on defense (if not, why not agree with him and be done on with it.) ]