Dirks heir - espn discussion - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Tokey41 · 09-23-2006, 11:33 PM

You know I would say that considering the Suns had three (maybe four if you count JJ... I dont) and two superstars respectively in the Nash MVP years they had the talent advantage over us, but the first year they were weak depth wise and the second they werent that much better losing one star and not gaining much extra depth (while maintaining elite status, impressive). They would have been even more awful depth wise had it not been for the Diaw surprise. The question is did he make them better? Well they all had career years last year so theres a very good argument the answer is yes considering he is the sole conductor of the offense.

Im not saying I would have voted for him though, for me it was between Bron and Dirk last year. But whats done is done and Nash has had a very successful individual career in contrast to his international counterparts. It's really undeniable.

dude1394 · 09-23-2006, 11:37 PM

Nash is the second best point guard in the history of the game. Only Magic Johnson is better. SCOREBOARD dudes, get over it.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-23-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Nash is the second best point guard in the history of the game. Only Magic Johnson is better. SCOREBOARD dudes, get over it.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I consider him only behind Magic and Stockton.

Five-ofan · 09-23-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I consider him only behind Magic and Stockton.

Isiah was without question a better player. So was the big O. For that matter so was Kevin Johnson. He is a borderline top 10 pg, not top 3.

dude1394 · 09-23-2006, 11:51 PM

Two MVPs says differently. He's a shoe-in hof'er.

I mean I wouldn't have voted him in for the second one, but the rest of the basketball world did. How am I to quibble.

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-23-2006, 11:52 PM

I'd definetly say he's top 5. I agree that Magic, Stockton, Isiah and Big O were better.

fluid.forty.one · 09-24-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Nash is the second best point guard in the history of the game. Only Magic Johnson is better. SCOREBOARD dudes, get over it.

Scoreboard probably isnt the word you're looking for considering "game" wise he hasn't won diddly

Nash13 · 09-24-2006, 12:28 AM

Have we all forgotten about Jason Kidd. That guy average 10apg with the least skilled bunch of players to get to the finals. He got max contracts for KMart, RJefferson, Marion, he even got Clifford Robinson a pretty big contract.

You can't base greatness on 2 years. Nash is certainly NOT the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or maybe even 5th best pg of all time.

Five-ofan · 09-24-2006, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I'd definetly say he's top 5. I agree that Magic, Stockton, Isiah and Big O were better.

Throw in Gp and you have 5 guys who were clearly better. Then throw in KJ, then throw in walt frazier. Then throw in... and yes GP was CLEARLY better than nash. You could make an argument that he was better offensively(though i wouldnt agree with it) and he was so much better defensively its not even funny.

Dont get me wrong. I love little stevie but he has become so vastly overrated its not even funny. He is the best pg in the nba now. I wouldnt argue that but its to the point that many think he is a top 5 player(so obviously wrong) or a top 5 pg of all time(again so obviously wrong).

nashtymavsfan13 · 09-24-2006, 12:59 AM

I think by the end of his career he will definetly be considered a top 5 PG of all time. So I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but I definetly think he will be by the end of his career.

Tokey41 · 09-24-2006, 01:50 AM

So am I to understand MVP awards mean nothing to a reputation of a player? I guess Karl Malone isint a top 10 forward since he didn't win a title because those MVP's are pointless. Hell Stockton didn't win a championship or even get an MVP.. he DEFINITELY not a top pg... yep thats for sure.

Nash13 · 09-24-2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

So am I to understand MVP awards mean nothing to a reputation of a player? I guess Karl Malone isint a top 10 forward since he didn't win a title because those MVP's are pointless. Hell Stockton didn't win a championship or even get an MVP.. he DEFINITELY not a top pg... yep thats for sure.

Karl Malone is considered a great b/c, not solely the reason, the Forward spot isn't as deep when talking about great players like other positions.

MVP's don't count as much when talking about greats b/c, 1)Players don't have titles to go along with them and, 2) In Nash' case, he didn't deserve one (imo both). I mean Garnett, who's only gotten out of the first round once, and Iverson, a man with a rep for a bad ego who now can't manage to get his team in the playoffs have an MVP. Both are superstars, but the sole fact they have MVPs shouldn't put them in a discussion of top 5 greatest guards or forwards

And the reason Stockton is an all time great could be the fact he's the NBA's all time leader in both steals and assists. Players like him and Malone are considered the best at their positions b/c they have been to the finals a bunch of times, been to the all star game a bunch of times, dream team, milestones, etc.

mqywaaah · 09-24-2006, 10:35 AM

F Yao Ming!

Five-ofan · 09-24-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I think by the end of his career he will definetly be considered a top 5 PG of all time. So I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but I definetly think he will be by the end of his career.

I will be absolutely shocked if he passes any of the big 4 for pgs or GP or Frazier....

Tokey41 · 09-24-2006, 06:37 PM

Im just saying that winning a championship definitely helps your reputation but it doesnt make you great instantly, does it? Theres other achievements to consider. Im not saying Nash is a top 5 pg, maybe top 10 but the whole point of this thread (which is way off topic now) was to discuss Dirks heir as the best international player. I made the claim Nash is international and has accomplished more (unless you consider making the finals more than two MVP awards) than Dirk has in his career.

I even suggested the reason as to why he won the second MVP award (even if I dont agree with it) and thats how people started jumping on the fact that Nash is way overhyped. I dont think hes overhyped on this board (in general, hell yeah he is), and I dont recall saying he was a top 5 player in this league. Doesnt make him any less valuable to the structure of the PHX team.

Nash13 · 09-24-2006, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Im just saying that winning a championship definitely helps your reputation but it doesnt make you great instantly, does it? Theres other achievements to consider. Im not saying Nash is a top 5 pg, maybe top 10 but the whole point of this thread (which is way off topic now) was to discuss Dirks heir as the best international player. I made the claim Nash is international and has accomplished more (unless you consider making the finals more than two MVP awards) than Dirk has in his career.

I even suggested the reason as to why he won the second MVP award (even if I dont agree with it) and thats how people started jumping on the fact that Nash is way overhyped. I dont think hes overhyped on this board (in general, hell yeah he is), and I dont recall saying he was a top 5 player in this league. Doesnt make him any less valuable to the structure of the PHX team.

Everybody else's point is when a player is better than you, a player is better than you. Chauncey Billups has a championship and a finals MVP award, you telling me you want him instead of a Dominic Wilkins? Jason Kidd? Patrick Ewing?

The fact is if the Atlanta Hawks have a choice of restarting their franchise and to pick their superstar, i would put my guinea pig's life on the fact they'd choose Dirk. You can't be an heir to someone that a GM would pick over. You can win all the regular season awards you want, but it won't change the fact that a player is better than you.

dude1394 · 09-24-2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Karl Malone is considered a great b/c, not solely the reason, the Forward spot isn't as deep when talking about great players like other positions.

MVP's don't count as much when talking about greats b/c, 1)Players don't have titles to go along with them and, 2) In Nash' case, he didn't deserve one (imo both). I mean Garnett, who's only gotten out of the first round once, and Iverson, a man with a rep for a bad ego who now can't manage to get his team in the playoffs have an MVP. Both are superstars, but the sole fact they have MVPs shouldn't put them in a discussion of top 5 greatest guards or forwards

And the reason Stockton is an all time great could be the fact he's the NBA's all time leader in both steals and assists. Players like him and Malone are considered the best at their positions b/c they have been to the finals a bunch of times, been to the all star game a bunch of times, dream team, milestones, etc.

I didn't realize any of them had mvp(s). One not the greatest, but two when only one other point guard in the history of the game has them is something that cannot be discounted. I again wouldn't have voted for him but he got 'em and that's that. it seems that karl/john went to the finals twice.

Nash13 · 09-25-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I didn't realize any of them had mvp(s). One not the greatest, but two when only one other point guard in the history of the game has them is something that cannot be discounted. I again wouldn't have voted for him but he got 'em and that's that. it seems that karl/john went to the finals twice.

The fact you don't agree with your own arguement helps prove the fact it shouldn't matter. One MVPs are won through the media, two the competition for the awards the past 2 years have been weak because they're aren't as many elite teams as their once was.

And yeah there's only one point guard to win MVP before? so what? How many times did Stockton, Kidd, Thomas, Magic's team(s) not make the finals because their star point guard ran out of gas?

dude1394 · 09-25-2006, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

The fact you don't agree with your own arguement helps prove the fact it shouldn't matter. One MVPs are won through the media, two the competition for the awards the past 2 years have been weak because they're aren't as many elite teams as their once was.

And yeah there's only one point guard to win MVP before? so what? How many times did Stockton, Kidd, Thomas, Magic's team(s) not make the finals because their star point guard ran out of gas?

Hmm...I don't think I wasn't agreeing with my own argument. My argument was that iverson, garnett do NOT have mvp(s). Malone does and I'd put him up there with the greatest in the game.

Nash did more with the suns this year than stockton every could imo. Stockton was proabably really good, but Malone was the super-duper star, hands down. That's why he did win two MVPs.

dude1394 · 09-25-2006, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Everybody else's point is when a player is better than you, a player is better than you. Chauncey Billups has a championship and a finals MVP award, you telling me you want him instead of a Dominic Wilkins? Jason Kidd? Patrick Ewing?

The fact is if the Atlanta Hawks have a choice of restarting their franchise and to pick their superstar, i would put my guinea pig's life on the fact they'd choose Dirk. You can't be an heir to someone that a GM would pick over. You can win all the regular season awards you want, but it won't change the fact that a player is better than you.

Finals MVPs are not in the same category as season MVPs imo. Choose dirk over steve? Others I'm not sure.

Nash13 · 09-25-2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Hmm...I don't think I wasn't agreeing with my own argument. My argument was that iverson, garnett do NOT have mvp(s). Malone does and I'd put him up there with the greatest in the game.

Nash did more with the suns this year than stockton every could imo. Stockton was proabably really good, but Malone was the super-duper star, hands down. That's why he did win two MVPs.

I'd say the all time leader in assists and steals is really good. Without Stockton, no way Malone wins anybody's MVP. With that being said, what you said does further go along with my arguement. Sure Stockton helped, but Malone is the better talent. A good point guard can only be as good as the talent around him, while more talented and athletic players don't need great players to play next to them to be great. But if i'm following what you just said correctly, in the 04-05 season, Amare was probably really good, but Nash was the super-duper star? That's why he won the MVP?

And when i watch the suns play, i don't see anything Nash does that any pg mentioned in this thread (besides maybe thomas) couldn't do just as good or better.