Official Rangers off season thread

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

How does being 1 game from being world champs not serve to motivate differently? In the very same way that being embarrassed by the eventual world champs also motivates. (And I believe we are seeing the fruits of that embarrassment) Remember, thig, you don't have to agree with something for it to be rational. Losing in a seven game series is not the same thing as being embarrassed.

The Rangers were embarrassed and that can only have made the decision of going back to the Phillies that much easier. That is what I am saying. Contending that it wouldn't make any kind of difference seems disconnected with human emotion.

I think you're way off base in saying they were embarrassed.

If they'd been swept in four completely uncompetitive games I could maybe see your argument to a certain extent.

But overall your argument really doesn't make much sense. He's leaving a team that made the World Series for another that didn't, and you're claiming that part of his reasoning is because of how poorly (you think) the Rangers showed themselves in the series. That doesn't track with me at all. The only way that makes sense is if the Rangers lost to the team that he left for.

And I'm fully aware of the distinction of "don't agree" and "doesn't make sense". And obviously I don't throw the latter around lightly, especially with someone like you. But I really, really find this stance to be confusing. The Rangers got further than the Phillies last year. How does that result somehow work to their disadvantage?

[sike]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The team aspect obviously had something to do with it... unless there are some great hookers in Philly or something.

I'm sure both could be true.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I said that he is a guy who to me looks like he doesn't put team first. That was based on observing his behavior when he played for the Rangers. He seemed a lot more concerned with Cliff-Lee-the-One-Man-Corporation than with anything else.

Maybe his heart was always in Philadelphia and it's a Disney story come to light. But more likely, his heart was never anywhere, and he just decided where the One-Man-Corporation should lease its home office.

But where is his heart supposed to be?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm saying that if he doesn't care about the team, why would he take substantially less money so he could hand pick the team he wanted. He could have easily taken the 161 million from the Rangers and been a One-Man-Hella-Paid-Corporation.

The team aspect obviously had something to do with it... unless there are some great hookers in Philly or something.

But...was it the team? As in, when it came down to it he wanted more than anything else to help the Phillies win? Or was it about the greenest pastures where The Corporation wanted to lease its offices?

I think he's selfish and irresponsible. If the reason for that is that he had so much great butt-sex with his Phillies teammates that he just can't put a price on not getting more, then more power to him. Doesn't change things much, though.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

But...was it the team? As in, when it came down to it he wanted more than anything else to help the Phillies win? Or was it about the greenest pastures where The Corporation wanted to lease its offices?

I think he's selfish and irresponsible. If the reason for that is that he had so much great butt-sex with his Phillies teammates that he just can't put a price on not getting more, then more power to him. Doesn't change things much, though.

What could he have done in this off-season to make you think he wasn't selfish?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But where is his heart supposed to be?

Well, the Rangers traded for him. The Rangers won with him. The Rangers offered him insane money to stay. One place for his heart could be...I don't know...here?

He basically gave every Rangers fan a fat middle finger with these contract shenanigans. Not to mention his Arlington teammates.

[LonghornDub]

I'm not really sure what I think of Cliff's decision from a moral standpoint, but I know this: Philly's got an okay pitching rotation now. You could even call it "aight."

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not really sure what I think of Cliff's decision from a moral standpoint, but I know this: Philly's got an okay pitching rotation now. You could even call it "aight."

Our spanish friends might even call it "más o menos".

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

What could he have done in this off-season to make you think he wasn't selfish?

Well, that's an easy one. When a team sold out to get you, offering up the best package and giving in the process a stud 1B prospect that they could sorely use, that says something. When same said team makes a bunch of other moves to make sure that you and your teammates have every chance to win, that says something else. When same said team opens up the vault and offers you more money than anyone else (or at least close to it), that says something too.

You know, you could kinda play along with the general selflessness theme. If you are that kind of guy, that is.

Or...you could say: "HA, HA! F you!"

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, the Rangers traded for him. The Rangers won with him. The Rangers offered him insane money to stay. One place for his heart could be...I don't know...here?

You can replace "Rangers" with "Phillies" at every point in this quote and it remains true.

And yes you will come back with "they traded him". But they also offered him a contract extension before trading him that he turned down because he wanted free agency.

He chose one set of former teammates over another. This is nothing but bitterness from you. And I get that. But don't make it out to be about him, because it's not. He didn't owe the Rangers anything.

Really, no athlete owes his team anything. It's a business. But Cliff Lee REALLY doesn't owe any team anything. He's been moved around like a hired gun and this was his one shot to sign a big contract and choose where he wanted to play. Degrading him for that is ridiculous.

If the Yankees had offered him the most money and he'd taken it you probably would have dinged him for that too.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, that's an easy one. When a team sold out to get you, offering up the best package and giving in the process a stud 1B prospect that they could sorely use, that says something. When same said team makes a bunch of other moves to make sure that you and your teammates have every chance to win, that says something else. When same said team opens up the vault and offers you more money than anyone else (or at least close to it), that says something too.

You know, you could kinda play along with the general selflessness theme. If you are that kind of guy, that is.

Or...you could say: "HA, HA! Fuck you!"

Again, Philly traded for him, Philly offered him a contract extension, and Philly offered him damn nice contract themselves.

Thinking Lee owes any loyalty to the Rangers is absurd.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Our spanish friends might even call it "más o menos".

Excellent cultural literacy.

Consider this your rep, since I still can't give you any.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think you're way off base in saying they were embarrassed.

If they'd been swept in four completely uncompetitive games I could maybe see your argument to a certain extent.

But overall your argument really doesn't make much sense. He's leaving a team that made the World Series for another that didn't, and you're claiming that part of his reasoning is because of how poorly (you think) the Rangers showed themselves in the series. That doesn't track with me at all. The only way that makes sense is if the Rangers lost to the team that he left for.

No. All I have been claiming is that IF the Rangers had made it a hard fought tooth and nail series swapping wins but coming up shot, that I imagine it would have weighed differently on him than the turnout we did witness in reality where the ranger bats whimpered into the night game after game. Which you are claiming is again and again is a senseless notion. Which I honestly find insulting. How would almost winning not weigh on your mind differently than getting there and completely whiffing.

He is leaving a team that didn't get enough Wins in the world series for a team that he rightly sees as an undeniable favorite with his addition.

I'm basing my opinion on the supposition that I have a certain degree of understanding of the highly competitive mind. Maybe that does not compute with you for some reason, but that does not make a nonsensical notion.

[sike]

Originally Posted by sike

I can only imagine that this would have gone down differently if the rangers make it close in the world series.

Again. Disagree with it. But don't say its stupid or senseless to suggest as a possibility.

[mavspwnage]

I just wish we knew the mystery 3rd team the entire time. Instead, all it was for the last several days was Rangers or Yankees? Yankees or Rangers? But the whole time, there was this secret third team that nobody was paying attention to. If I knew it was the Phillies the entire time, then I wouldn't be pissed at all.

The Rangers have a three game series in Philly from May 20-22. This is freakin awesome, because I am going to New Jersey for a wedding on May 28. Earlier in that week, I will be in Boston visiting my sister. So why not just add Philly to the plan and go to one of those games??

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

No. All I have been claiming is that IF the Rangers had made it a hard fought tooth and nail series swapping wins but coming up shot, that I imagine it would have weighed differently on him than the turnout we did witness in reality where the ranger bats whimpered into the night game after game. Which you are claiming is again and again is a senseless notion. Which I honestly find insulting. How would almost winning not weigh on your mind differently than getting there and completely whiffing.

He is leaving a team that didn't get enough Wins in the world series for a team that he rightly sees as an undeniable favorite with his addition.

I'm basing my opinion on the supposition that I have a certain degree of understand of the highly competitive mind. Maybe that does not compute with you for some reason, but that does not make a nonsensical notion.

Because you're making it sound like the Rangers got swept in the first round of the playoffs. There is a tiny, tiny sliver of production between winning one game in the world series and winning three.

Simply making it to the world series meant the Rangers were *this* close. They very much did almost win. You keep using words like choke and whiff and embarrassed, and I just really think you're not looking at it correctly. That's basically where our difference of opinion comes.

If they had been swept by the Rays I would absolutely agree with your assessment. That would have been embarrassing. That's a whiff. That's a choke.

Losing four games out of five in the world series, in a relatively competitive manner, is not an embarrassment, is not a choke, is not a whiff, and I absolutely believe had zero negative impact on Lee's feelings on staying here.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Again, Philly traded for him, Philly offered him a contract extension, and Philly offered him damn nice contract themselves.

Thinking Lee owes any loyalty to the Rangers is absurd.

I didn't know that about Philly. But that just reinforces my feelings. The guy has done this now not once but twice? What a primadonna. As sike said, you got the vibe the whole time he was here that all that mattered to him was those eight or nine innings five days apart.

The more I think about it, I'm glad that he didn't sign back here. Sounds like a clubhouse cancer to me. The minute a team starts going bad, the only question will be where Lee's next stop is.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I didn't know that about Philly. But that just reinforces my feelings. The guy has done this now not once but twice? What a primadonna. As sike said, you got the vibe the whole time he was here that all that mattered to him was those eight or nine innings five days apart.

The more I think about it, I'm glad that he didn't sign back here. Sounds like a clubhouse cancer to me. The minute a team starts going bad, the only question will be where Lee's next stop is.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I was just going by what you said.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I was just going by what you said.

First of all, you can't find a single ex-teammate of Lee that will say one bad thing about him. Not one. Anywhere.

He turned down the contract extension from Philly because he wanted to be a free agent. He career bloomed very late and so he had one single shot to sign a big contract and he wanted to maximize it more than the extension that was offered. I don't see how anyone could blame him for that. He made it perfectly clear at the time that he really enjoyed Philly and was disappointed to be traded.

He then pitched his ass off in Seattle and here and he was, by every account, a fantastic teammate. He has spent time with at least one Ranger teammate this off season and been contact with others.

He called JD personally tonight to thank him for how he and his family were treated while he was here, and to tell him how much he enjoyed playing for this organization. He simply had decided to go in a different direction.

There is zero reason to mad at Cliff Lee right now. None.

[fluid.forty.one]

*continues eating popcorn*

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Losing four games out of five in the world series, in a relatively competitive manner, is not an embarrassment, is not a choke, is not a whiff, and I absolutely believe had zero negative impact on Lee's feelings on staying here.

Then I would suggest its you who don't understand Cliff Lee.

He doesn't care about your Ranger fan's enthusiasm to win a couple rounds in the playoffs. Guess what he won games in the world series with the team he is going back to. That is what he cares about.

He only wants to win the world series. And I think he would have gone to whichever team he felt gave him the best chance to do that. And my only contention in this has been that if the Rangers had made it a really competitive series, (which they honestly didn't) that would (could) have weighed differently on his perspective on them as the favorites next year. Sheesh...I don't even think it is a controversial statement that winning more makes one think better of your chances in the future.

And I think chum is right that he didn't and doesn't give a dump about the Rangers franchise and that he is all about himself.

And I think you are right that he doesn't owe the Rangers anything at all.

He wants to win the world series.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

There is zero reason to mad at Cliff Lee right now. None.

agreed. But then again he hasn't ever said I was lacking sense.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Then I would suggest its you who don't understand Cliff Lee.

He doesn't care about your Ranger fan's enthusiasm to win a couple rounds in the playoffs. Guess what he won games in the world series with the team he is going back to. That is what he cares about.

He only wants to win the world series. And I think he would have gone to whichever team he felt gave him the best chance to do that. And my only contention in this has been that if the Rangers had made it a really competitive series, (which they honestly didn't) that would (could) have weighed differently on his perspective on them as the favorites next year. Sheesh...I don't even think it is a controversial statement that winning more makes one think better of your chances in the future.

And I think chum is right that he didn't and doesn't give a dump about the Rangers franchise and that he is all about himself.

And I think you are right that he doesn't owe the Rangers anything at all.

He wants to win the world series.

I just don't see how two games can make any kind of different in a decision like that. I just don't. It's too arbitrary. Too fluky. The Rangers could replay that WS ten times and they'd probably win it at least five of them. And I would imagine Lee knows that.

I agree that he wants to win the world series. And I think he's smart to think the Phillies have a better chance. I just disagree (strongly) that winning two more games last post season changes his feelings on the subject.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

First of all, you can't find a single ex-teammate of Lee that will say one bad thing about him. Not one. Anywhere.

He turned down the contract extension from Philly because he wanted to be a free agent. He career bloomed very late and so he had one single shot to sign a big contract and he wanted to maximize it more than the extension that was offered. I don't see how anyone could blame him for that. He made it perfectly clear at the time that he really enjoyed Philly and was disappointed to be traded.

He then pitched his ass off in Seattle and here and he was, by every account, a fantastic teammate. He has spent time with at least one Ranger teammate this off season and been contact with others.

He called JD personally tonight to thank him for how he and his family were treated while he was here, and to tell him how much he enjoyed playing for this organization. He simply had decided to go in a different direction.

There is zero reason to mad at Cliff Lee right now. None.

Okay, I see it your way. But at the same time, if he wanted free agency for the big payday instead of extending with the Phils, why did he leave tens of millions on the table to go back to the Phils?

Still seems to me like he had a swim through Arlington and decided it wasn't worth it, even for tens of millions. Call him loyal to the Phils for that, but it's still giving the Rangers and their fans a big middle finger.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay, I see it your way. But at the same time, if he wanted free agency for the big payday instead of extending with the Phils, why did he leave tens of millions on the table to go back to the Phils?

Still seems to me like he had a swim through Arlington and decided it wasn't worth it, even for tens of millions. Call him loyal to the Phils for that, but it's still giving the Rangers and their fans a big middle finger.

Well he still got a lot more than what the Phils offered him in an extension.

[jthig32]

Sike's been replying to this thread for a long time now. He either stepped away, types very slowly, or he can't see through his new found hatred of me.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I agree that he wants to win the world series. And I think he's smart to think the Phillies have a better chance. I just disagree (strongly) that winning two more games last post season changes his feelings on the subject.

There you go. I understand this is how you think. This is your opinion.

And I'm telling you, that I think to world class athletes (not statisticians) that game 7 is VERY different than game 5. Not "kinda different", or a "tad different".

I also think your Rangers glasses made you see a series that was much closer than the one I saw. And we both know Lee didn't have any Rangers glasses. He just saw terrible at bat after terrible at bat. And a line up that had to grind to scratch out runs against his old team that scored them in droves against the Rangers.

Disagree with me...and use words like "fluky" to describes the difference between losing in game 7 and being 1 game from being swept, but don't say it is lacking in sense.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Sike's been replying to this thread for a long time now. He either stepped away, types very slowly, or he can't see through his new found hatred of me.

Once again, all can be true at the same time and place.

[Underdog]

There's a lot of suppressed man-love in this thread...


*continues eating popcorn*

[LonghornDub]

I wish you guys would argue like this about the Mavs. Dammit thiggy.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

There you go. I understand this is how you think. This is your opinion.

And I'm telling you, that I think to world class athletes (not statisticians) that game 7 is VERY different than game 5. Not "kinda different", or a "tad different".

I also think your Rangers glasses made you see a series that was much closer than the one I saw. And we both know Lee didn't have any Rangers glasses. He just saw terrible at bat after terrible at bat. And a line up that had to grind to scratch out runs against his old team that scored them in droves against the Rangers.

Disagree with me...and use words like "fluky" to describes the difference between losing in game 7 and being 1 game from being swept, but don't say it is lacking in sense.

The Philly offense got shut down even worse by the same Giant staff. So that doesn't fly with me as a reason either.

Losing in five games and losing in seven...I just can't believe that anyone thinks that's enough of a difference to change where he wants to play for the next six seasons. That would be the ultimate knee jerk.

For the record, when I say "doesn't make sense" that means it doesn't make sense to me. It does not necessarily mean that the poster is lacking in sense. I'll try to make it a point to type the full thing out from now on.

[jthig32]

Ok, last post and I'm going to bed. To Chum's question of why he took less money on the open market after turning down the Philly extension:

SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman
ok promise, last lee tweet: #phillies offer to him last winter was $54 mil, 3 yrs. so he gained $66 mil by waiting

[chumdawg]

Well, let me be the first one to say it, I guess. I hope he blows out all the tendons in his left elbow and is never the same. Don't think I am hating on the man...he'll still get paid.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I wish you guys would argue like this about the Mavs. Dammit thiggy.

I only have time to truly obsess about one non-work/family related thing at a time. My Mavs focus will ramp up quickly once the hot stove stuff dies down.

Besides, aren't people tired of me banging the "play Marion more" drum at this point? What else is there to argue about right now?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ok, last post and I'm going to bed. To Chum's question of why he took less money on the open market after turning down the Philly extension:

They were offering 18 per, and he ended up taking 20 per. Lot of moving parts here. Can't ever tell the future, but the bottom-line dollars could go either way. He may have earned more money by the time it's said and done if he took the extension.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I only have time to truly obsess about one non-work/family related thing at a time. My Mavs focus will ramp up quickly once the hot stove stuff dies down.

Besides, aren't people tired of me banging the "play Marion more" drum at this point? What else is there to argue about right now?

Fair enough. At least the Cowboys won't distract you much from here on out.

And from my vantage point, I don't care if you're saying the same substantive thing over and over. It's better when you're in the mix. Sike's around a fair amount, but 80% of his posts seem to just be him coming onto me or UD anyway.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

They were offering 18 per, and he ended up taking 20 per. Lot of moving parts here. Can't ever tell the future, but the bottom-line dollars could go either way. He may have earned more money by the time it's said and done if he took the extension.

That's highly unlikely given his age.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Fair enough. At least the Cowboys won't distract you much from here on out.

And from my vantage point, I don't care if you're saying the same substantive thing over and over. It's better when you're in the mix. Sike's around a fair amount, but 80% of his posts seem to just be him coming onto me or UD anyway.

Oh, thank god you noticed - I thought I was the only one who was turned-on...

[jthig32]

Sike I really want to wait and read your response, but I have an interview with a potential new client tomorrow and simply must go to bed.

Agree to disagree. You are sensible. Not stupid (never said that anyway). And I love you.