The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread - Page 105 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

The Nets are not using cap space. Everything they did was over the cap, and then they used their Bird rights to re-sign Deron.

We had to have cap space to re-sign Deron. We could have signed Deron FIRST, and then traded for JJ, although we couldn't have come close to matching salary with only expiring contracts. But your scenario was getting JJ to convince Deron to come here.

Thanks for explaining.

A way might've been found (since we would be offering some actual talent vs just cap relief) but I acknowledge it is a stretch.

Deron/JJ/Dirk would have been smooth.

Bayliss · 07-04-2012, 09:53 AM

Kurt Helin says Nets were clearly under orders to abandon their championship contender dreams, if necessary, in favor of mustering up a team that would be fun to watch and reasonably competitive in the East.

Maybe that's all Deron Williams wanted -- a team that wins a reasonable number of games, so he doesn't have to always lose. Or, maybe he wanted to lock in his five-year max contract, and figures he can force a trade in a year or two, if the team isn't as good as he hoped and has no chance of getting better. The end of that story hasn't been written.

The Brooklyn Nets are a much better team right now than they were 72 hours ago.

They will walk onto the court at the Barclays Center with an entertaining lineup, a team with offensive firepower, something you couldn’t really say about the squad last seen in New Jersey. They should be a team on the second tier in the East along with Indy, Boston and the Knicks. They won the battle to keep the face of the franchise in point guard Deron Williams. They should be popping champagne at the Nets headquarters tonight.

But they are not title contenders, not unless guys who have never been good at it suddenly learn to defend and board. And the way this team is built — with massive contracts for some players seeming past their prime — the moves of the last 72 hours will come back to haunt them in a couple years.

And Dwight Howard is not going to be bailing them out — all these bold moves make it nearly impossible for the Nets to trade for Howard (and there is no way they can sign him as a free agent next summer now).Howard still wants to land in Brooklyn, but it is going to take a Houdini-like escape from the confines of the CBA to find a way to free up salary to pull it off.

Nets GM Billy King was clearly under orders from owner Mikhail Prokhorov to get a team together that could open a new building, one that could compete in the nation’s largest market with the much more established Knicks. Something the Nets could sell.

He did.

Deron Williams is an Olympian and arguably the second best point guard walking the face of the earth. He’s also taken to living in New York City and will be a great ambassador for the team.

They added Joe Johnson and while we can all agree his contract is ridiculously large — $89 million over four more years — the guy is an All-Star and he can play. Johnson averaged 18.5 points per game last year, shot 38 percent from three and had a PER of 18.5.

The Nets also have Gerald Wallace, a guy who averaged 15.2 points a game, is an efficient shooter and can defend. Somehow the Nets held on to MarShon Brooks, the impressive rookie that a lot of teams coveted. They added Mirza Teletović, a quality stretch four from Europe. Reggie Evans will be a fan favorite but drive coach Avery Johnson crazy.

There are some pieces to like. This Nets roster should put up points. If Avery Johnson can get them to defend as a unit they could be better than just good.

But they are still looking up at Miami (as is everyone) and a healthy Chicago. And getting more quality pieces to change that will be nearly impossible. As you read this, the Nets have $54 million committed to six players (via Zach Lowe at Sports Illustrated who did the math). The salary cap is $58 million, and what is more by using the full $5 million mid-level exception on Teletović the Nets have locked themselves in with essentially a hard cap of $74 million they cannot exceed.

Bottom line is the Nets have $20 million to round out the roster and we haven’t talked about re-signing Brook Lopez or Kris Humphries yet. And they want to keep Lopez for sure, ideally both. Very quickly the Nets are going to be looking and inexpensive veteran minimum deals because they will be running out of space below the $74 million apron (as it is called in the CBA).

Which comes back to the dream of trading for Howard. First off, the Magic have consistently rejected an offer of Lopez, Brooks and picks for Howard and that is not suddenly going to change. The Magic have all summer or longer to make a move, they are not the ones that take the PR hit for how they handled the situation. They are more than happy to let Howard twist in the wind. And they sure as heck don’t care where he wants to go, they want the best deal for themselves.

More than that, Howard (set to make $19.5 million next year) along with Johnson, Williams, Wallace and the other couple guys already under contract but not shipped out would be owed nearly $70 million. So that leaves $4 million to get seven more guys. You’re not getting quality for that.

There are scenarios you can create where the Nets get some third party to help them out, taking on salary and opening the door for them to get Howard. But not realistic ones. And you can bet no GM in the East is going to help the Nets create another Super Team in their conference.

No, what you see with the Nets is pretty much what you get. They will be good. They will be fun. They will compete with the Knicks and the fans in Brooklyn will love them. Jay-Z will love them.

But in a few years the real cost of opening the Barclays Center the right way will come home to roost

dude1394 · 07-04-2012, 10:07 AM

Sounds like a Dallas writer.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Sounds like a Dallas writer.

Kurt Helin isn't a Dallas writer.

deamon · 07-04-2012, 11:43 AM

Sorry for player like a Dirk, looks like year ago it was his first and last ring.
Get DH or die.

Underdog · 07-04-2012, 12:25 PM

Deadspin: Congratulations, You Are Chris Broussard’s Source

sike · 07-04-2012, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Deadspin: Congratulations, You Are Chris Broussard’s Source

woah! That is comically awesome!

Bayliss · 07-04-2012, 04:40 PM

Well, Teletubby is not taking the MLE. He is taking the mini MLE. So the Nets are still in play to get Dwight Howard.

Underdog · 07-04-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Well, Teletubby is not taking the MLE. He is taking the mini MLE. So the Nets are still in play to get Dwight Howard.

Deron Williams -- and Dwight Howard -- aren't coming to the Mavs, so this is a story/thread that I don't need to concern myself with anymore.

Hell, this news should probably go in the 'Around the NBA' section at this point...

xrobx · 07-04-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Deron Williams -- and Dwight Howard -- aren't coming to the Mavs, so this is a story/thread that I don't need to concern myself with anymore.

Hell, this news should probably go in the 'Around the NBA' section at this point...

This entire thread could, for that matter.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 05:15 PM

Kidd's reads on things, if true, are disappointing. It means DWill was probably leaning Dallas, maybe slightly, maybe by a decent amount, maybe 51/49, but the flurry of Nets' moves (which has jeopardized their chances of acquiring Dwight) swung him to the dark side.

If true, I wonder if the JET-Boston announcement, which broke a couple hours before Deron's tweet, might've been a final straw.

sike · 07-04-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Kidd's read on things, if true, are disappointing. It means DWill was probably leaning Dallas, maybe slightly, maybe by a decent amount, maybe 51/49, but the flurry of Nets' moves (which has jeopardized their chances of acquiring Dwight) swung him to the dark side.

Yup. DWill just saw names he recognized and assumed that will certainly = wins.

Kidd's point about DWill fearing Dirk going down and being stuck on a loser was also very telling.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Kidd's point about DWill fearing Dirk going down and being stuck on a loser was also very telling.

That certainly wouldn't have changed with Chandler. Chandler is great at what he does, but he's neither a scorer nor a go-to guy.

I guess the Mavs needed to get some overpaid, above-average scorer like Joe Johnson to sway Deron. Neat.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2012, 05:24 PM

I hope this kind of puts an end to the argument that Dallas never really had a chance. They were there, but the flurry at the end by Brooklyn sealed it.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I hope this kind of puts an end to the argument that Dallas never really had a chance. They were there, but the flurry at the end by Brooklyn sealed it.

Maybe I'm not being fair but that makes me even more disappointed than if we didn't have a chance. It's like we blew our chance then. This reaction may be more of a human nature thing than rational thing.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Maybe I'm not being fair but that makes me even more disappointed than if we didn't have a chance. It's like we blew our chance then. This reaction may be more of a human nature thing than rational thing.

But how did we blow it? It's not like Dallas could've blocked Brooklyn from re-signing Wallace and trading for JJ.

Underdog · 07-04-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

But how did we blow it? It's not like Dallas could've blocked Brooklyn from re-signing Wallace and trading for JJ.

That's because we traded Tyson Chandler - he would've blocked the sh!t out of that trade . . . then raced up the court and threw it down with a monster 360 jam, f*ck yeah!

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

But how did we blow it? It's not like Dallas could've blocked Brooklyn from re-signing Wallace and trading for JJ.

I think Deron was impressed by the activity of Brooklyn - not necessarily the specific moves. By contrast, Dallas was a snail during that time. I know the cap situations were different and maybe Deron knew that, maybe he didn't, but the contrast in post-meeting activity is what must've popped out as he was considering his very hard decision after two presumably good meetings.

One team is resigning its 2nd best player, adding an All-Star, adding role players while the other just let its crunch time killer go. I bet someone in Brooklyn planted the "what if Dirk gets hurt" seed at that point. Just my thought.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2012, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I think Deron was impressed by the activity of Brooklyn - not necessarily the specific moves. By contrast, Dallas was a snail during that time. I know the cap situations were different and maybe Deron knew that, maybe he didn't, but the contrast in post-meeting activity is what must've popped out as he was considering his very hard decision after two presumably good meetings.

Just my thought.

The reports were that he did like the specific move of JJ (from which we can conclude that he clearly could've cared less about JJ's contract). And Dallas didn't have the luxury of having bird rights on Deron. Any aggressive moves by Dallas would have taken them out of the picture entirely. The simple fact of the matter is that Brooklyn was better positioned than Dallas in the Deron sweepstakes, and, acting on conversations they'd legally been allowed to have with Deron for months but which Dallas had been prohibited from having until only a few days ago, they very aggressively pushed their advantage to nudge the deal across the finish line. That's totally different from Dallas blowing it.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 05:27 PM

Y'all need to stop ragging on Joe Johnson. Guy is a legit All-Star, top 5 SG. Overpaid, fine.

I expect him to do major damage as the 2nd banana with DWill this year.

Give credit to the Nets for have a bunching expiring assets and having the financial fortitude (it was the classic old Cuban move, I'll take on your overpaid but very talented player because I'm rich) while we're saddled with Haywood and running from the tax.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2012, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Y'all need to stop ragging on Joe Johnson. Guy is a legit All-Star, top 5 SG. Overpaid, fine.

I expect him to do major damage as the 2nd banana with DWill this year.

Give credit to the Nets for have a bunching expiring assets and having the financial fortitude (it was the classic old Cuban move, I'll take on your overpaid but very talented player because I'm rich) while we're saddled with Haywood and running from the tax.

I'll agree with everything except for the first point. I think a lot of it is by default with the All-Star nods. I find it hard to believe he is sniffing the team if he's in the Western Conference.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Y'all need to stop ragging on Joe Johnson. Guy is a legit All-Star, top 5 SG. Overpaid, fine.

I expect him to do major damage as the 2nd banana with DWill this year.

Give credit to the Nets for have a bunching expiring assets and having the financial fortitude (it was the classic old Cuban move, I'll take on your overpaid but very talented player because I'm rich) while we're saddled with Haywood and running from the tax.

I'm not a huge JJ fan, but I wasn't even really trying to rag on him.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 06:33 PM

"The simple fact of the matter is that Brooklyn was better positioned than Dallas in the Deron sweepstakes."

If that is true, then the odds weren't 50/50. If the odds were 50/50, then that is not true.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 06:55 PM

You're right - I don't know what probability the Mavericks assigned to this beforehand so perhaps they calculated the Nets making a flurry of moves and their prospective impacts to Deron's decision accurately. Or at the least, and more likely, the MBT calculated the Nets could only impact Deron's decision by a not game ending amount with a few days in free agency through non-Deron personnel moves.

However, judging from JKidd's comments, the odds shifted quite a bit with the Nets' moves, thus, I am assuming things changed more than they anticipated. You're right I could be wrong but I think everybody was surprised by what the Nets did. Did anybody foresee the Nets' forgoing their Dwight chance to get JJ without giving up a real asset (MarShon or Lopez) to get Deron? It was a twist - people thought the Nets' would play their chance to get Dwight card as a selling point (while assuming that move would devoid the Nets of all their remaining assets). Dwight demanding to go to Brooklyn was actually a potential trump card but when Deron didn't commit with that, that's when the JJ stuff popped up and the Nets did a pretty decent pivot job by keeping all their primary assets while capturing JJ with just expirings.

I don't think (I could be wrong) the Mavs assumed the Nets would land a "big fish" (JJ qualifies) before Deron was going to make his decision. I think the Mavs thought the Nets were all in on Dwight and all the risks that were involved with that (might not happen, Dwight is kinda coocoo, it would cost them Lopez/Brooks/1sts).

For all we know, Deron wants to be the man. Dwight might've impeded on that and JJ doesn't.

I'm getting myself mixed up with all this game/trade theory.

Murphy3 · 07-04-2012, 06:56 PM

JJ qualifies? You sure about that?

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 07:01 PM

Yes. He is definitely big enough to be part of any big three and as 2nd bananas go, he's a top five 2nd banana.

JJ would probably be the best player All-Star Dirk ever played with. A couple seasons from Nash/Finley's best Dallas years would be similar.

grndmstr_c · 07-04-2012, 07:09 PM

I think you're overrating JJ.

Murphy3 · 07-04-2012, 07:11 PM

Yeah, I think so too.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 07:18 PM

That would suck.

NoTnERb · 07-04-2012, 07:51 PM

The Mavs FO standing pat, not doing anything, smh. This is disappointing. And here I was all excited with the idea that this is the first off season in the Cuban era that we had some flexibility.

xrobx · 07-04-2012, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoTnERb

The Mavs FO standing pat, not doing anything, smh. This is disappointing. And here I was all excited with the idea that this is the first off season in the Cuban era that we had some flexibility.

don't worry, we should still be flexible for many offseasons to come

NoTnERb · 07-04-2012, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

don't worry, we should still be flexible for many offseasons to come

I honestly don't care about flexibility anymore, I care about the guy in the middle of your sig and giving him the biggest chance of winning another ring. Even if he doesn't win a ring anymore, I'll be happy knowing that we gave him the best support that we could offer year in and year out until he retires. We owe him that much. Hell, we owe him even more. A few years of sucking would be fine with me after Dirk retires.

dude1394 · 07-04-2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoTnERb

I honestly don't care about flexibility anymore, I care about the guy in the middle of your sig and giving him the biggest chance of winning another ring. Even if he doesn't win a ring anymore, I'll be happy knowing that we gave him the best support that we could offer year in and year out until he retires. We owe him that much. Hell, we owe him even more. A few years of sucking would be fine with me after Dirk retires.

Man that is over. The mbt value financial flexibility above all else right now.

NoTnERb · 07-04-2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Man that is over. The mbt value financial flexibility above all else right now.

Hence me saying that was my take. I know MBT has to take into account the organization as a whole and not just dirk.

b_o_r · 07-04-2012, 08:17 PM

Financial Flexibility is worthless if you are only going to offer players 1 or 2 yr deals.

Windmill360 · 07-04-2012, 09:14 PM

@ESPN_Caplan: One more comforting fact is Lakers turned Mavs trade exemption from Mavs in Odom deal into Nash.

Damn weve been burned so many times since that deal now.

Murphy3 · 07-04-2012, 10:11 PM

So, they blew up the championship team so that they could stand pat and waste at least two years of Dirk in his prime.

Wow, excellent.

nowhereman · 07-04-2012, 10:35 PM

IDK if this has been posted, but

Quote:

"Honestly, it came down to the roster," Kidd said. "Brooklyn made moves that improved the roster dramatically, and he saw things were going that way. That would be my opinion from looking on the outside. He felt that if Dirk goes down he's sitting with himself."

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/...llas-mavericks

Windmill360 · 07-04-2012, 10:35 PM

Man if they are really sticking to their guns with this fanancial flex why not just attempt to move Dirk? Seriously hes 20 million and not getting any younger.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

Man if they are really sticking to their guns with this fanancial flex why not just attempt to move Dirk? Seriously hes 20 million and not getting any younger.

Because he's a superstar. The whole point of financial flexibility is to find ANOTHER superstar.