Dirk, a classic debate - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LAM0015 · 03-12-2001, 12:36 PM

I think it's obvious and that we should recognize the fact that Dirk has taken over as the Mavs #1 offensive scoring threat.

djb · 03-12-2001, 12:50 PM

I think it's obvious that on any given night, any one of our Big Four can take over as the Mavs #1 offensive scoring threat [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

LonestarROB · 03-12-2001, 01:26 PM

I agree with you DJ but there's no doubt in my mind that Dirk will be our main offensive threat for years to come. Just wait until he developes a better low post game. He's be unstopable(if he isn't already).

LAMOO15, welcome to the board. Be sure to go Here to tell them who told you about this place.

That would be me incase you've forgotten already [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] .

LAM0015 · 03-12-2001, 02:16 PM

I know that any of the following; nash, dirk, finley, howard, and even eisley can lead the Mavs any night in scoring. But, on a night in night out basis, Dirk is the man. He's 21 or 22, he'll only get better, alot better. Finley is getting close to his peak, but Dirk still has alot of time and room to grow as a player. As he continues to develop his low post game, he will become one of the most dominating offensive threats in the game. He could realistically get to the point to where he averages 28 points a game. One thing that could keep him from reaching such gaudy numbers is that the Mavs are becoming more and more talented, which leads to less shots for all

Evilmav2 · 03-12-2001, 02:46 PM

As soon as Dirk can consistently post up smaller defenders in the post and score with his back to the basket, he is going to be relatively unstoppable... He is already pretty unstoppable from the perimeter when he is hitting his jumpers- that's when we get to see him driving and dunking because opposing players get really afraid of the three pointer after he hits one or two...

Mavs#1Fan · 03-12-2001, 03:19 PM

It's hard to believe how fast Dirk's gotten comfortable in the NBA. Just two years ago he was considered a draft bust. Now he is one of the most promising players in the league.

The think that amazes me the most about Nowitzki is that he has the ability to be an All-Star at three positions. The list of players who could do that is very short.

And he probably won't mature into his full game until he's 27 or 28.

Evilmav2 · 03-12-2001, 04:28 PM

For the last year and a half, you could just see his improvement week by week... The way he just picked up the knack of rebounding this season really shows how much better he can get... I see a very frightening turn-around jumper in the lane in his near future... That was one of Kiki's moves, and Croshere (Kiki's old student) tries to force that shot all the time...

mavsfan-972 · 03-13-2001, 12:11 AM

#1 scoring threat - #1 defensive problems

LAM0015 · 03-13-2001, 08:20 AM

Did you know that last year, the mavs opponents 2-guard actually scored more points when playing the Mavs than what Michael finley scored?
I'm sure you didn't know that, did you?
Yes, the Mavs have problems on defense but most of them come from penetration by other teams guards.

03-13-2001, 02:53 PM

You know what's amazing is how great of a scorer everyone say Dirk is, however the question I have is would he be as great a scorer if you take Finley off the court? I would be willing to bet he wouldn't. I think he's a Scottie Pippen but better than Pippen ever was as a scoring threat.

djb · 03-13-2001, 03:05 PM

That may be true, but keep in mind that Dirk is only 21 and has really only been playing for about two years. Unlike guys like Pippen, Dirk's never played college ball, so just imagine how good he'll be by the time he's 25! He's just starting to blossom..give him time [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Finley's still the man, but I really believe Dirk will surpass him (in terms of pure skill) sometime in the next couple years.

03-13-2001, 03:39 PM

I'm not sure about that one, I could never see myself choosing Dirk as an option before Mike. HOWEVER, don't get me wrong because I think Dirk is GREAT. I think he should have been on the All-Star team, I think he's one of the top power forwards in the league. However just like Pippen, once you take another Michael out of the picture, statistic wise he's going to improve however leading a team entails more than just scoring and rebounding etc. etc. Don't you think? In my opinion all of the intangibles define the great ones from the good ones.

djb · 03-13-2001, 03:51 PM

I agree with what you're saying, but don't you think it's possible that Dirk will shed his Pippen-like role and develop into a superstar-caliber player sometime in the next 3-5 years? Finley's already reached his max potential imo (which isn't a bad thing!), but Dirk's ceiling has yet to be determined. The one thing that Finley has over Dirk right now is maturity and team leadership. But again, Dirk's only 21 and these things will undoubtedly come in time. Finley will be the team's leader for as long as he dons the Mavs jersey, but I believe the day will come when Dirk becomes the team's top player and number one option. The fact that we're already comparing him to Scottie Pippen this early in his career is quite telling.

03-13-2001, 04:19 PM

Well while I'm actually a Pippen fan so I see what you're saying about it being a great thing that we're comparing Dirk to Pippen so early in his career. Do I think the sky is the limit for Dirk yes, but I disagree with you in the sense that Finley has reached his potential. I think he still has much more growing as well. Someday Dirk will be that option, however what I need to see is how he handles the pressure of being the number one option. A team comes into to each game and put their toughest defender on Finley while Dirk doesn't get that matchup. NOW a lot of that has to do with the mismatch that he presents, which is also what makes him so great. He'll never get a great defender on him mostly because how many 6'11" versatile forwards are in the NBA? So he can exploit that.

I guess to answer your question as long as Finley is there, I think he'll always be second fiddle. If Finley leaves and Dirk proves he can carry the team, he'll be the man in eyes.

djb · 03-13-2001, 04:31 PM

Finley is 28 and has been playing competitive organized ball for ten years. He's in the prime of his career and imo has just about started to plateau (skill-wise). Nevertheless, the beauty of the whole Fin-Dirk relationship is that Dirk is the complete opposite of Kobe Bryant [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] He recognizes the fact that this is Finley's team and is content with that.

In the end, however, I think Dirk has a shot at superstardom, something Finley probably won't achieve. I love Fin, but guys like Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett are clearly on a totally different level.

djb · 03-13-2001, 04:34 PM

BTW, why don't you sign up here rather then post anonymously? I like chatting with fans who know their stuff and stick to their beliefs [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

03-13-2001, 04:39 PM

I don't know how to sign up, I would like to.

djb · 03-13-2001, 04:44 PM

Just click the "join" tab along the top of the screen. It takes just a few seconds to sign up [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

TheKid · 03-13-2001, 04:48 PM

Sweet, I'm in now, I have an identity.

djb · 03-13-2001, 04:48 PM

Welcome to the board!

Big Boy Laroux · 03-13-2001, 05:44 PM

Ok, the thruth of the matter is, these two need each other. Dirk blossoms when fin draws double-teams. fin thrives if they double dirk. Why does someone HAVE TO BE THE MAN!? look what's happened to LA and all their bickering. It starts with the fans, then it gets into the players' egos. We should just be happy that these two great players are both playing for our beloved mavs, and that together, they can bring us to the promised land...

they're both studs, and the complement each other extremely well. It's just like all those people who argued that kobe would be the best player in the world if he didn't have to play with shaq, yet fail to realize that most of kobe's opportunities come because of shaq's presence.

djb · 03-13-2001, 05:47 PM

TRUE DAT!

Fin + Dirk + Nash = S-U-C-C-E-S-S

TheKid · 03-13-2001, 06:04 PM

I don't fail to realize that Kobe would NOT be great without Shaq. I'm not one of those people. Also, I do believe they're both studs, I'm just saying before I'm willing to say Dirk can come night in and night out on a consistent basis (longer than a year and a half) then I'll be willing to say he's an option before Finley is. However you're right about one thing, they both compliment each other well and I am glad there's no bickering like the Lakers squad.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-13-2001, 06:11 PM

yeah, and i think we may be arguing the same thing here. I think Dirk is awesome, but i don't think he's taken over this team, nor will he for some time. i just think these arguments are pointless. personally, i think labeling dirk as the savior of our franchise may be too much pressure for the young german.

djb · 03-13-2001, 06:13 PM

Of course we'd all rather have Fin play consistently night-in and night-out at this point! He's been in the league FAR longer then Dirk, and like I said, has played 10+ yrs of organized competitive ball. Compare this with Dirk's two years of pro ball and ZERO years of college ball. With time, Dirk WILL become the better player, but for the time being, no one is disputing Finley's role as team leader and go-to guy status.

djb · 03-13-2001, 06:14 PM

I agree BBL. We should all just be happy we have guys of this caliber on the team, willing to play together and unselfishly.

scooterj5 · 03-14-2001, 12:53 AM

I say Dirk should get into the rap business. Sure he would suck but who wouldn't buy a CD of a German guy trying to rap. I would find it very funny.

LAM0015 · 03-14-2001, 08:11 AM

Dirk is 21. He's a better scoring threat than Finley is right now. Finley is arguably at the height of his career based on age. Dirk is a much better shooter (2 point percentage, 3 point percentage, and free throw percentage). Dirk's inside game is getting better by the week. He's also driving to the basket more than Finley does
Honestly, I don't think it's Finley's presence that enhances dirks performance. It probably has more to do with Steve Nash than Finley. Obviously, the big four all feed off each other. There is one reason why Finley would not come back and sign a long term contract for the Mavs. That would be because he realizes that by next year he WON'T be the top dog on the team. But, since Finley is a team guy, I do believe he will sign a long term deal with the Mavs. He wants to win and he loves it here.

Zille · 03-14-2001, 08:16 AM

i´m new to the board and my first post doesn't even have something to do with basketball.
but we have some really good rappers here in germany. they've been featured by krs-one, the gza, mos def and many more.
to the topic. i think a main reason for dirk's rise is that his style of play will not cause as much injury problems as the game of the high flying guard of these days. mcgrady, kobe or iverson get beat up night in and night out plus their game is already ankle breaking, not just of the opponents also their own ones. dirk's game is very efficient and should help him stay healthy.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-14-2001, 08:42 AM

The main difference here is that Dirk is primarily a shooter right now, although he is picking up the other aspects of the offense (driving to the hole, posting up, etc.) quite well. Finley is a pure scorer. He may not be the best shooter, but he can find ways to score. well, at least he could, before he started taking all those crazy fadeaways. Drive, Mike, Drive! (that's been a sticking point all season).

TheKid · 03-14-2001, 09:04 AM

Out of the last few posts the only thing I will say is, Dirk is driving to the basket more than Finley, I agree. That's my biggest arguement with Fin, but as far as saying his all around game isn't as good as Dirk's, has anyone realized the last two years Mike has lead his team in triple doubles. He only has one this year, but that's not something just anyone could get. The reason Mike can get assists is he draws a lot of attention to himself. I'm going to say this, Dirk is going to be great but I have to disagree with everyone in saying that he's going to be better or ahead of Mike someday. Actually Mike could be leading the team in scoring right now easily except he prefers to win over being selfish. If anyone doesn't think Mike couldn't average 25 points a game easily, they're crazy. He defers to Dirk ALOT. Now that he's surrounded by more scores, (Dirk, Nash, Howard, Eisley) he'll sacrafice his own personal statistics for the sake of the team. That says more about him as a player than anything else he's done if you ask me.

LAM0015 · 03-14-2001, 09:39 AM

How can you say that? Look at which player is getting to the foul line more? If you know anything about basketball, you know that people that drive to the basket get to the foul line more often than people that primarily shoot jumpshots. Dirk has attempted almost twice as many free throw attempts this year than Finley has. What does that mean? Combine that with the fact that he's shooting 48% from the floor it means that he's at least as effective driving to the basket as Finley is. Take in a game... If you want to argue, have some statistics to back up what you're arguing occassionally

LAM0015 · 03-14-2001, 09:45 AM

good point on Finley needing to drive.
Dirk is a pure scorer. He's a pure shooter, he's 7'0 tall and athletic. He can put the ball on the floor, he can drive and this season he has become more comfortable about doing that. Dirk has a very good shot at being able to average 28 a game by the time he's 25. How many people have done that in the history of the NBA? Ladies and gentlemen, you have a chance to see a guy develop into one of the premier scorers in the NBA history. No, I'm not saying that he'll be a top 10-20 scorer...but, i'm saying he has a realistic shot to score 28,000-30,000 plus for his career. No offense to Mica Finley, but that is completely out of his reach. How often does a 7'0 guy come along that can put the ball on the floor and shoot so well from the outside? How quickly is his game developing? Yes, we all agree that he's not at the peak of his game right now, but he's one of the top players in the Western Conference already. Take a look, appreciate what you're seeing. Dirk has a combination of gifts and abilities that 95% of the players in the NBA only dream of having.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-14-2001, 09:57 AM

man, i feel like i'm on some board where people are arguing kobe vs. vince. do you guys realize these guys play on the same team that we all love and follow?! no need to get all angry and stuff...

why don't we just make a list of everything we hate about our own players? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

TheKid · 03-14-2001, 10:20 AM

I don't consider this arguing, I consider this voicing opinions. Neither one of us are saying one is a bad player or that either one of them are not great players, we're talking about where they're going.

Now to get to that point, I just want to add. The thing about Dirk that I don't think you're realizing is you're focusing on his age as opposed to numbers of years in the league. Personally I think Mike would have progressed just as much as Dirk has if he came in the league on a sorry team. Dirk came into the Mavericks when they were winning 30 games a year. Mike was a rookie on a team that had Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Robert Horry. Then when he came to Dallas he came with Sam (I haven't met a shot I don't like) Cassell. My point is saying that, Dirk progression has a lot more to do with who he's playing with and what surrounding him. That is what I'm saying is the beauty of Mike. I hate to disappoint you but if Mike wanted to could be among the top five in the league in scoring. Granted he would probably be shooting 30% from the field but he could do it. Actually if he drove to the basket more like he should he could be averaging 25 now. That would be easily another 6 additional trips to the free throw line.

Dirk is something amazing definately. A freak of nature actually, however I just want you to remember what they said about another 6'11 versatile player when he was 21 averaging what Dirk's averaging. He goes by the name of Kevin Garnett. They thought by his sixth year in the league he would be leading the NBA in scoring. Well he's not. Now granted Kevin is PHENOMENAL and probably could average more than he does, but he probably won't improve much more from a point standard than he is all ready. That's my point about Dirk. His game is going to get much better and he'll add different aspects to his game, but to think he'll go from 21 to 28 is being very lofty don't you think?

Big Boy Laroux · 03-14-2001, 10:55 AM

I'm just saying that both of you have valid points, but we could go on like this for days. Personally, I agree with The Kid. Give them both their props. There is no need to say "dirk is the man now, move over Finley!" both are more than likely sacrificing part of their own games for each other and the rest of the team. Finley could easily average 25. so could dirk, if he decided to just jack up 3s all day. Point is, they're learning to play well together. Let's hope we can keep them both for years to come.

oh, and if bradley keeps playing the way he is, looks like we may have a Big 5, one of the toughest starting Lineups in the League.

TheKid · 03-14-2001, 11:17 AM

Big Boy ok, let's not get crazy now, I don't know about the best starting five. I will say this though, Bradley is playing GREAT!!!!! If he keeps that up, or when the Chinese dude gets here, they mine as well start fitting the Mavs for their rings.

LAM0015 · 03-14-2001, 01:00 PM

My point isn't that finley sucks. That's not it at all. My point is, is that Finley is at the top of his game. Dirk isn't. Dirk will mature and become more consistent. Dirk will develop a more consistent inside game. Dirk will hit 50% + of his field goal attempts. Dirk will be a tremendous outside threat from 3 point range. Finley won't do any of the above. Finley is at his peak. Finley will never consistently hit 40% of his three point attempts. Dirk has a tremendous upside, yes, i know that finley makes dirk a better player....at the same time, dirk makes finley a better player. Dirk is as good or better of an offensive threat as finley is, BUT DIRK WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE MAJOR STRIDES. AND IF YOU THINK THAT BECAUSE DIRK HAS BEEN IN THE LEAGUE FOR 3 YEARS THAT HE WON'T. JUST LEAVE IT AT, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG.

Big Boy Laroux · 03-14-2001, 01:10 PM

riiiiiiiight... honestly, though, with as many threes as dirk takes, he'll probably stay consistently around 50%. there is no doubt that dirk will continue to improve. he's young. but it's almost as if you're writing finley off as "the old veteran." he's got a whole lot of seasons left. who's to say he won't improve? players are always discovering new facets of their games.

Fact : Finley is a great player.
Fact : Dirk has a tremendous Upside.

personally, i like dirk better than finley. dirk's one of my favorite players. but i recognize that finley is a tremendous player and the leader on this team. i don't think dirk has the ability to carry a team consistently.

LAM0015 · 03-14-2001, 01:13 PM

maybe not 28, maybe 27.5
is that better?
No, i don't think it's too lofty for dirk to average 28 for a year. no, i don't think it's unrealistic for dirk to average 25 or better several times. the rate he's going right now, (which is 22 points a game), he might be up to 23 by the end of the season. that would be a huge jump from his second season to his third season. use your head, come on now, get with the program.