dirk, fin, and nash's numbers..playoffs compared to regular season - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 10:25 PM

this was requested by a member in a different thread..so, i went and got the numbers. sure, it's hard to completely interpret all the numbers because nash played several seasons as a part time player because of injuries or because he hadn't hit his stride yet...dirk played a season like that as well..fin pretty much hit the ground running with his career.

These are career numbers, playoff numbers, and last years numbers
but, here's what I've come up with

Finley

MPG
Reg Season 39.6
Playoffs 42.9
Last year 38.3

FG%
RS 45.2
PO 41.9
LY 42.5

3pt%
RS 35.7
PO 39.4
LY 37.0

FT%
RS 80.2
PO 86.3
LY 86.1

Reb
RS 5.3
PO 5.7
LY 5.8

Assists per game
RS 4.0
PO 3.2
LY 3.0

Steals
RS 1.2
PO 1.32
LY 1.1

turnovers
RS 2.07
PO 1.84
LY 1.65

PPG
RS 19.4
PO 20.0
LY 19.3

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 10:27 PM

Nash

Minutes per game
Regular Season 27.8
Playoffs 32.3
Last year 33.1

FG%
RS 46.5
PO 43.3
LY 46.5

3pt%
RS 41.8
PO 44.4
LY 40.9

FT%
RS 88.8
PO 88.6
LY 90.9

REB
RS 2.5
PO 3.2
LY 2.9

Assists
RS 5.6
PO 6.2
LY 7.3

Steals
RS .78
PO .65
LY 1.04

TO's
RS 1.9
PO 2.1
LY 2.34

PPG
RS 12.1
PO 13.9
LY 17.7

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 10:31 PM

Dirk

MPG
Regular Season 35.5
Playoffs 42.2
Last year 39.0

FG%
RS 46.5
PO 45.6
LY 46.3

3pt%
RS 37.8
PO 41.5
LY 37.9

FT%
RS 84.8
PO 89.3
LY 88.1

REB
RS 8.2
PO 10.9
LY 9.9

Assists
RS 2.3
PO 2.0
LY 3.0

Steals
RS .99
PO 1.37
LY 1.39

Blocks
RS .97
PO .86
LY 1.03

TO's
RS 1.82
PO 2.17
LY 1.9

PPG
RS 20.1
PO 25.5
LY 25.1

LRB · 10-12-2003, 10:38 PM

Murphy the Regular Season numbers, were they vs. playoff opponents only or overall? Because some of the number don't match up to overall. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 10:41 PM

overall career numbers, playoff numbers and last year numbers are listed..

LRB · 10-12-2003, 11:04 PM

Thanks.

Day1MavsFan · 10-12-2003, 11:40 PM

So, basically what we see here is that the big 3's numbers didn't improve in the playoffs really, just like Nick's. In fact, Finley's and Nash's fg% dropped quite a bit, whereas Nick's didn't. Dirk lost a perctage point in FGs, but did get better in the rebounding department, as well as overall point production. The real kicker here is that Dirk's and Steve's regular season numbers include the early part of their careers when they struggled more, whereas the playoff numbers don't because they didn't play in the playoffs until they were in their prime. Nick, on the other hand, played a lot of his playoff games early in his career. I'm not sure how many playoff games Finley played in while in Phoenix, but I'd venture to say he has played a vast majority of them here. For example, Dirk shot .463 last year, .477 the year before, and .474 the year before that in the regular season. Those were the 3 playoff years. Yet, his playoff % for those 3 years is .456. Likewise, Nash shot .487, .483, and .465 the last 3 years, but only .433 in the playoffs. His total points are down from 17.7, 17.9, and 15.6 to only 13.9 (although that does include Suns playoff games I assume, which could skew the numbers slightly). Nash's assists are down also: 7.3, 7.7, & 7.3, but only 6.2 in the playoffs. So, really, the big 3 have not played as well in the playoffs as compared to their regular season play, and Nick played about the same, as far as numbers go. His assists are the only thing that was down, and that of course is because he didn't play the point most of the time in Dallas. Certainly, if you look at last year, he definitely stepped it up in the playoffs. Frankly, I don't remember how Nick played against Minnesota and Sacramento the year before. I only recall how the big 3 played.
Now, lower numbers in the playoffs might be normal for NBA players across the board, for all I know. So, I am not being critical of the big 3, mind you. However, the bottom line is that if you think Nick was not a "step-it-up-in-the-playoffs" guy, only about the same, then that means you have to say the big 3 are "take-it-a-step-down" guys in the playoffs. Which only brings us to one conclusion, that Nick is more of a big-game player than any of the big 3. So, saying that there were better options as a go-to-guy than Nick is simply not true. Most of us realized this anyway, without looking at the numbers, which is why Nick is given so much credit for the playoff run. That is the point of the whole discussion, ie., was Nick given too much credit in the playoffs, and is he a big-game player. The answers are 'no' and 'yes'.
I hope Dirk is ready to be the go-to-guy, but he hasn't really shown that yet. If there were 10 seconds left on the clock in a game 7, who would you rather have with the ball, Nick, Fin, Nash, or Dirk? At this point in their careers, you'd be crazy not to say Nick. Let's pray the answer changes down the road.

ReDIRKulous · 10-12-2003, 11:47 PM

Quote:

That is the point of the whole discussion, ie., was Nick given too much credit in the playoffs, and is he a big-game player. The answers are 'no' and 'yes'.
I hope Dirk is ready to be the go-to-guy, but he hasn't really shown that yet. If there were 10 seconds left on the clock in a game 7, who would you rather have with the ball, Nick, Fin, Nash, or Dirk? At this point in their careers, you'd be crazy not to say Nick. Let's pray the answer changes down the road.

I think this is wrong. Someone posted some stats on another site that showed that Van Exel's FG% went down in fourth quarters and Dirk's went up. Not sure about this. Some stat guy wanna check this out?

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 11:49 PM

i see what you're saying, but it's difficult to take out 1 stat and say that dirk didn't improve in the post season.

Look how much his 3pt% and FT% went up?

I'm willing to bet that his adjusted field goal percentage in the playoffs is actually BETTER than his combined numbers over the last 3 years.
His rebounds are significantly up and his scoring is also significantly up.

So, it's easy to look at his numbers and say that, for his career, he has definitely stepped it up in the playoffs (without a doubt). His overall numbers are definitely better in the playoffs.

And yes, some of fin's and steve's numbers were lower...most notably, their 2pt%. However, their other shooting percentages are either virtually the same or are up.

Sure, you can argue that NVE's numbers didn't drop as much as Fin's...but when it comes to field goal percentage, surely NVE's couldn't get much lower.

As for dirk taking the last shot..i have absolutely no problem with him taking it in Game 7's
He's one of the best players in the history of the NBA in elimination games.

Bayliss · 10-12-2003, 11:53 PM

Quote:

So, basically what we see here is that the big 3's numbers didn't improve in the playoffs really, just like Nick's.

Actually the numbers are better. No matter if you use last years for Dirk or his career. His ppg and rpg are up.

Quote:

In fact, Finley's and Nash's fg% dropped quite a bit, whereas Nick's didn't.

Hmmm... it's hard to decrease from 40%.. no?

Quote:

Dirk lost a perctage point in FGs, but did get better in the rebounding department, as well as overall point production. The real kicker here is that Dirk's and Steve's regular season numbers include the early part of their careers when they struggled more, whereas the playoff numbers don't because they didn't play in the playoffs until they were in their prime.

That's a fallacy too. When Steve and Dirk made the playoofs. Neither one was in their prime. In fact Dirk still isn't in his prime. Moot point.

Quote:

Nick, on the other hand, played a lot of his playoff games early in his career. I'm not sure how many playoff games Finley played in while in Phoenix, but I'd venture to say he has played a vast majority of them here. For example, Dirk shot .463 last year, .477 the year before, and .474 the year before that in the regular season. Those were the 3 playoff years. Yet, his playoff % for those 3 years is .456. Likewise, Nash shot .487, .483, and .465 the last 3 years, but only .433 in the playoffs. His total points are down from 17.7, 17.9, and 15.6 to only 13.9 (although that does include Suns playoff games I assume, which could skew the numbers slightly). Nash's assists are down also: 7.3, 7.7, & 7.3, but only 6.2 in the playoffs.

You do realize all great players shoot a lower % in the playoffs right? Kobe, Garnett, etc etc. The reason is simple: defense is tigher and the refs swallow their whistles.

Quote:

So, really, the big 3 have not played as well in the playoffs as compared to their regular season play, and Nick played about the same, as far as numbers go. His assists are the only thing that was down, and that of course is because he didn't play the point most of the time in Dallas. Certainly, if you look at last year, he definitely stepped it up in the playoffs. Frankly, I don't remember how Nick played against Minnesota and Sacramento the year before. I only recall how the big 3 played.

Nice revisionist history there. Dirk's numbers are up in PPG and RPG yet you say he hasn't played well. You do realize he is averaging a double double in the playoffs, right? Is that "not playing well?" **rolls eyes**

Quote:

Now, lower numbers in the playoffs might be normal for NBA players across the board, for all I know. So, I am not being critical of the big 3, mind you. However, the bottom line is that if you think Nick was not a "step-it-up-in-the-playoffs" guy, only about the same, then that means you have to say the big 3 are "take-it-a-step-down" guys in the playoffs. Which only brings us to one conclusion, that Nick is more of a big-game player than any of the big 3. So, saying that there were better options as a go-to-guy than Nick is simply not true. Most of us realized this anyway, without looking at the numbers, which is why Nick is given so much credit for the playoff run. That is the point of the whole discussion, ie., was Nick given too much credit in the playoffs, and is he a big-game player. The answers are 'no' and 'yes'.I hope Dirk is ready to be the go-to-guy, but he hasn't really shown that yet. If there were 10 seconds left on the clock in a game 7, who would you rather have with the ball, Nick, Fin, Nash, or Dirk? At this point in their careers, you'd be crazy not to say Nick. Let's pray the answer changes down the road.

I'd much rather give it to Dirk or Fin or Nash than Nick. Take percentages. All of them shoot around 45% or higher. That is 5% better than Nick. So if they shot 100 times at the end of the game... the Big 3 would make 5+ more baskets than Nick.

Murphy3 · 10-12-2003, 11:57 PM

bayliss...good job

but also..look how much dirk's 3pt% and ft% go up in the playoffs..
definitley, his adjusted shooting percentage is higher in the playoffs than during the rest of his career..even higher than his last three years.

and you're right, when you shoot 40.7% for your career like NVE..it's difficult to actually shoot worse in the playoffs. But, for his career in the playoffs, he's found a way.

Rod1975 · 10-13-2003, 01:25 AM

I'd definitely like to see Dirk's assists avg. go up during the playoffs, I think that would help the team tremendously.
Not that 2 a game is'nt repectable for a #1 scoring option, but MJs assists are what really put his team over the hump in the early 90s.
I think Dirk can have the same impact with this team if his assists increase to about 4 or 5 a contest during the postseason.

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 01:27 AM

i'd like to see that too rod
but, for that to happen, the mavs will have to run ALOT more of the offense through him. and at this point, that's in nellie's hands

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Day1MavsFan
So, basically what we see here is that the big 3's numbers didn't improve in the playoffs really, just like Nick's. In fact, Finley's and Nash's fg% dropped quite a bit, whereas Nick's didn't. Dirk lost a perctage point in FGs, but did get better in the rebounding department, as well as overall point production. The real kicker here is that Dirk's and Steve's regular season numbers include the early part of their careers when they struggled more, whereas the playoff numbers don't because they didn't play in the playoffs until they were in their prime. Nick, on the other hand, played a lot of his playoff games early in his career. I'm not sure how many playoff games Finley played in while in Phoenix, but I'd venture to say he has played a vast majority of them here. For example, Dirk shot .463 last year, .477 the year before, and .474 the year before that in the regular season. Those were the 3 playoff years. Yet, his playoff % for those 3 years is .456. Likewise, Nash shot .487, .483, and .465 the last 3 years, but only .433 in the playoffs. His total points are down from 17.7, 17.9, and 15.6 to only 13.9 (although that does include Suns playoff games I assume, which could skew the numbers slightly). Nash's assists are down also: 7.3, 7.7, & 7.3, but only 6.2 in the playoffs. So, really, the big 3 have not played as well in the playoffs as compared to their regular season play, and Nick played about the same, as far as numbers go. His assists are the only thing that was down, and that of course is because he didn't play the point most of the time in Dallas. Certainly, if you look at last year, he definitely stepped it up in the playoffs. Frankly, I don't remember how Nick played against Minnesota and Sacramento the year before. I only recall how the big 3 played.
Now, lower numbers in the playoffs might be normal for NBA players across the board, for all I know. So, I am not being critical of the big 3, mind you. However, the bottom line is that if you think Nick was not a "step-it-up-in-the-playoffs" guy, only about the same, then that means you have to say the big 3 are "take-it-a-step-down" guys in the playoffs. Which only brings us to one conclusion, that Nick is more of a big-game player than any of the big 3. So, saying that there were better options as a go-to-guy than Nick is simply not true. Most of us realized this anyway, without looking at the numbers, which is why Nick is given so much credit for the playoff run. That is the point of the whole discussion, ie., was Nick given too much credit in the playoffs, and is he a big-game player. The answers are 'no' and 'yes'.
I hope Dirk is ready to be the go-to-guy, but he hasn't really shown that yet. If there were 10 seconds left on the clock in a game 7, who would you rather have with the ball, Nick, Fin, Nash, or Dirk? At this point in their careers, you'd be crazy not to say Nick. Let's pray the answer changes down the road.

Nice catch! And yes you would be crazy to not give the ball to nick in a game 7 not only out of dirk, fin, and nash, but the whole league. Nick is as clutch as they come. Its been said before so I know im not alone on this one.

Rod1975 · 10-13-2003, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
i'd like to see that too rod
but, for that to happen, the mavs will have to run ALOT more of the offense through him. and at this point, that's in nellie's hands

Hey Murph, I got this from Eddie Sefko's article:

Quote:

"Oh yeah, sure," Nelson said. "I'm going to put the ball in his hands a lot this season. I don't want him to go through his career as just a catch-and-shoot guy. To truly be great, he's got to identify the passing aspects and he will. He's been good in this training camp at making those decisions."

I like hearing this, now lets see Nellie (hopefully) put it into practice.

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 01:48 AM

so do i rod..
but, let's see if nellie will practice what he's preaching...
there's no reason why dirk shouldn't average 4+ assists this year

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Nice catch! And yes you would be crazy to not give the ball to nick in a game 7 not only out of dirk, fin, and nash, but the whole league. Nick is as clutch as they come. Its been said before so I know im not alone on this one.

i'm not sure it was a nice catch. All he said was that the big three's shooting numbers decreased. yes, it's true with fin and nash but not necessarily true with dirk at all.

and even with fin and nash struggling, i'd still rather have them shooting late in the game with the clock running out.
they're as clutch as NVE and they've proved it repeatedly throughout their career.

and dirk, well, we don't even need to discuss that.

NVE is what he is.. he's a good player, but VERY inconsistent. I dont' want an inconsistent player taking the last shot when fin, nash and dirk are on the court

grndmstr_c · 10-13-2003, 03:13 AM

Thought these might help. These are Dirk, Steve, Mike, and Nick's playoff averages (ppg, fg%, rpg, apg) the last two years combined. It's not as complete as would be ideal (mpg, true shooting %, blocks, steals, TO's, etc.) but this is all I had the conviction and commitment to figure up. IMO the stats paint a picture of all of them playing well with Dirk as the clear star of the bunch (duh) and Steve a better choice as point guard for the team than Nick.

Dirk: 26.3 (47%), 12, 2.2
Mike: 20.1 (45%), 5.9, 2.8
Steve: 17.1 (44%), 3.6, 7.7
Nick: 17.1 (44%), 3.3, 4

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

Nice catch! And yes you would be crazy to not give the ball to nick in a game 7 not only out of dirk, fin, and nash, but the whole league. Nick is as clutch as they come. Its been said before so I know im not alone on this one.

i'm not sure it was a nice catch. All he said was that the big three's shooting numbers decreased. yes, it's true with fin and nash but not necessarily true with dirk at all.

and even with fin and nash struggling, i'd still rather have them shooting late in the game with the clock running out.
they're as clutch as NVE and they've proved it repeatedly throughout their career.

and dirk, well, we don't even need to discuss that.

NVE is what he is.. he's a good player, but VERY inconsistent. I dont' want an inconsistent player taking the last shot when fin, nash and dirk are on the court

ok..
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Thought these might help. These are Dirk, Steve, Mike, and Nick's playoff averages (ppg, fg%, rpg, apg) the last two years combined. It's not as complete as would be ideal (mpg, true shooting %, blocks, steals, TO's, etc.) but this is all I had the conviction and commitment to figure up. IMO the stats paint a picture of all of them playing well with Dirk as the clear star of the bunch (duh) and Steve a better choice as point guard for the team than Nick.

Dirk: 26.3 (47%), 12, 2.2
Mike: 20.1 (45%), 5.9, 2.8
Steve: 17.1 (44%), 3.6, 7.7
Nick: 17.1 (44%), 3.3, 4

i see. however, you must put into consideration that if you are combining the last two years for playoff averages, van exel's 1st year into the playoffs with dallas he was fatigued. mike, dirk, and steve had been in the playoffs the year before while van exel was in denver. and yes, this does make a big difference to your body. van exel adjusted to that the following year in 2003 and did great.

grndmstr_c · 10-13-2003, 12:45 PM

Of course, I could turn that around and argue that Dirk Mike and Steve were all fatigued because they played much heavier minutes than Nick, which they did. I don't buy the fatigue bit excuse. It was an extra eight games, and frankly, he starteted stinking that first year pretty much as soon as we hit Sac, which was only an extra 3 games into the postseason. Bottom line is that if you look at the whole thing Nick played well for us while he was here. I don't think anybody is disputing that. But he wasn't the shining star of the show or the irreplacable piece that so many seem to be making him out to be.

As for combining two years, that's more data points, and that is how you get a more accurate picture of what a person brought and would be likely to continue to bring.

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Of course, I could turn that around and argue that Dirk Mike and Steve were all fatigued because they played much heavier minutes than Nick, which they did. I don't buy the fatigue bit excuse. It was an extra eight games, and frankly, he starteted stinking that first year pretty much as soon as we hit Sac, which was only an extra 3 games into the postseason. Bottom line is that if you look at the whole thing Nick played well for us while he was here. I don't think anybody is disputing that. But he wasn't the shining star of the show or the irreplacable piece that so many seem to be making him out to be.

As for combining two years, that's more data points, and that is how you get a more accurate picture of what a person brought and would be likely to continue to bring.

Yes, and steve continues to struggle with fatigue... I just hope mike gets over the injuries. And yes extra games after the season makes a world of difference. Van exel played great for us. Playing "well" would be a player like najera.. he played well. Not great. If van exel didnt play great than neither did anyone else in the playoffs besides tim duncan...

grndmstr_c · 10-13-2003, 02:27 PM

I don't want to quibble over adjectives. I've posted stats that paint a picture of Nick as overall playing about as well as Steve and Mike, and overall not as well as Dirk in the playoffs during Nick's tenure as a Mav. I've also argued that the stats are consistent with Steve being a better choice than Nick as the PG for our team. If you disagree with these contentions, then please index for me what you find objectionable in them. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to see, as I've already said that Nick stepped up big time for us at some key moments last year.

Male30Dan · 10-13-2003, 03:53 PM

Nash was one heck of a 3pt shooter last year... Anyone notice that? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Hint, Hint Murph!!!

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I don't want to quibble over adjectives. I've posted stats that paint a picture of Nick as overall playing about as well as Steve and Mike, and overall not as well as Dirk in the playoffs during Nick's tenure as a Mav. I've also argued that the stats are consistent with Steve being a better choice than Nick as the PG for our team. If you disagree with these contentions, then please index for me what you find objectionable in them. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to see, as I've already said that Nick stepped up big time for us at some key moments last year.

i agree that steve is a great pg for this team, however you can't say nick wouldnt be able to run the team as well as or if not better than steve. van exel was never the pg for this maverick team which is why i had replied to your post. The stats you say that make steve a better choice than nick as pg for our team have doesnt make sense because nick was never the full time pg for the team. thats what i am trying to get you to see. say if nash got injured for the year and van exel ran the team and he didnt do as well as nash then i would agree with what you are saying. it just seems that people are labeling nick as a ballhog or shoot-first player or that he is not really a pg, just an sg in a pg's body. which is not true. he was told by nellie to shoot, if nellie told van exel to create, he wouldve done that. IMO, he not only scored when needed, but also created opportunities for other players as dirk does since players have to help on van exel. i just feel that you cant really say nash is better for the team over van exel when van exel was never given that opportunity to be the teams pg. i love nash and his game, but i think overlooking nick like most are is wrong. i still feel that this team is gonna be damn good with the addition of fortson and jamison, however that remains to be seen. i just hope that nash will have energy once the playoffs come around again. oh and btw what stats do you see that make nash the better pg? thnx.

one long blue sock · 10-13-2003, 04:36 PM

Van Exel was entirely overrated... He had a few good games, it still didn't get the Mavs any where. Do they have a ring?
Van Exel was just in another one of his streaks, you can bet that if he was on the Mavs he would have had a playoff run like his first as a Mav.
AND Best is not a bad player, he can defiantly score 13 points a night, I don't see why from time to time he would not be able to.
Jamison fits into the team alot better then Van Exel anyway.

You can quote me that Van Exel won't be missed.

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: one long blue sock
Van Exel was entirely overrated... He had a few good games, it still didn't get the Mavs any where. Do they have a ring?
Van Exel was just in another one of his streaks, you can bet that if he was on the Mavs he would have had a playoff run like his first as a Mav.
AND Best is not a bad player, he can defiantly score 13 points a night, I don't see why from time to time he would not be able to.
Jamison fits into the team alot better then Van Exel anyway.

You can quote me that Van Exel won't be missed.

QUOTED... but i hope you are right..

and btw.. a few good games??? he had more than a few good games buddy... another one of his streaks?? well he must have them alot because he seems to do them during the playoffs thoughout his career.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 04:53 PM

actually, his career playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers almost across the board. Remember, we discussed that already...but, it's against playoff competition, it's to be somewhat expected

however, to say he's been a guy that steps up in big games is very misleading. sure, he does at times but in the end, he is who he is... a 40% shooter from the field.. a 34-35% shooter from behind the arc.. a guy that can win you a game when his shot is on or can shoot you out of a game when his shot is off. unfortunately, his shot is off more often than it's on...and to top it off, he might have been the worst defender on the mavs team last year. that's definitely saying alot

grndmstr_c · 10-13-2003, 04:58 PM

I can and do say that Steve is a better point guard for this team. You're wrong in saying that Nick didn't play point for this team. Steve only played about 32-33 minutes a game during the regular season. Nick was the PG the remaining 15 or so minutes. Furthermore, much of the time that both were in and Nick was nominally the SG, Steve still deferred to him and let him bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense. Very point guard type things for Nick to be doing if you ask me, and I think for that reason you can read something into their different assist totals.

The linchpin for my opinion, though, and this is probably going to be an agree to disagree thing between us, is that I've watched the games. The difference when Steve walks out on the floor is something that you can feel, and it's the right thing for the team. Nick is a great talent. I've said as much and I'm now saying it again for the last time. I don't think he's a sg in a pg body like Iverson. He's a combo guard. I personally think he's better as a pg because he's a guy who needs the ball (Iverson does a lot without the ball, for example), but I've never felt from watching him that his instincts fit on a team that has the offensive firepower that we have AS WELL AS Steve, who's selflessness, energy, and relentlessness make him about as perfect a match as you could hope for.

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
actually, his career playoff numbers are worse than his regular season numbers almost across the board. Remember, we discussed that already...but, it's against playoff competition, it's to be somewhat expected

however, to say he's been a guy that steps up in big games is very misleading. sure, he does at times but in the end, he is who he is... a 40% shooter from the field.. a 34-35% shooter from behind the arc.. a guy that can win you a game when his shot is on or can shoot you out of a game when his shot is off. unfortunately, his shot is off more often than it's on...and to top it off, he might have been the worst defender on the mavs team last year. that's definitely saying alot

what you are saying and what the stats show is very misleading... yes he is a 40% shooter from the field and 35% from the 3.. however when big games come the percentage sky rockets... and yes more often then not he can win you the game... and as we had seen in the playoffs his shot was on more often than it was off. no he was not the worst defender on the mavs last year. he's not a good defender he is an average defender like most of the players on the mavs team. they all hustled in the playoffs and all played good defense IMO.. saying he is a bad defender is misleading because our frontline cant do anything under there. perimeter defenders get burned more than you think since athletes these days are soo talented, and usually teams have big men who actually play d to help their guards out..

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
I can and do say that Steve is a better point guard for this team. You're wrong in saying that Nick didn't play point for this team. Steve only played about 32-33 minutes a game during the regular season. Nick was the PG the remaining 15 or so minutes. Furthermore, much of the time that both were in and Nick was nominally the SG, Steve still deferred to him and let him bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense. Very point guard type things for Nick to be doing if you ask me, and I think for that reason you can read something into their different assist totals.

The linchpin for my opinion, though, and this is probably going to be an agree to disagree thing between us, is that I've watched the games. The difference when Steve walks out on the floor is something that you can feel, and it's the right thing for the team. Nick is a great talent. I've said as much and I'm now saying it again for the last time. I don't think he's a sg in a pg body like Iverson. He's a combo guard. I personally think he's better as a pg because he's a guy who needs the ball (Iverson does a lot without the ball, for example), but I've never felt from watching him that his instincts fit on a team that has the offensive firepower that we have AS WELL AS Steve, who's selflessness, energy, and relentlessness make him about as perfect a match as you could hope for.

yes he did play some pg, but very little of it. because nash came in soon after and van exel switched to sg. and "The difference when Steve walks out on the floor is something that you can feel, and it's the right thing for the team"??? something you can feel? Oh well, great discussion, we just differ in opinion which is why we got these boards to discuss. right?
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 05:06 PM

all playoff games are big games..
so why isn't he a 47-50% shooter during his career in the playoffs? Why isn't he a 40% 3pt shooter in the playoffs? Is he just selective for which big games he steps up in?

LRB · 10-13-2003, 05:06 PM

Quote:

when big games come the percentage sky rockets

Actually this isn't the case. While Nick has had quite a few very good shooting performances in big games, he's had even more where he didn't shoot well at all. I still like him as a player, but he does have his faults and shot selection is one of them.

one long blue sock · 10-13-2003, 05:06 PM

Well you said that he had alot more good games in the playoffs then bad ones. I dont really think that is true at all, it is probably dead even. And what about in the playoffs of the first year he came?
Nick was good, but Jamison will be better

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
all playoff games are big games..
so why isn't he a 47-50% shooter during his career in the playoffs? Why isn't he a 40% 3pt shooter in the playoffs? Is he just selective for which big games he steps up in?

stop being unrealistic.. 47-50? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] if you dont see how he stepped up in big games of the playoffs you never will.. you never did [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: one long blue sock
Well you said that he had alot more good games in the playoffs then bad ones. I dont really think that is true at all, it is probably dead even. And what about in the playoffs of the first year he came?
Nick was good, but Jamison will be better

ok soo if nicks good games and bad games were dead even.. how well did you think nash played or fin and dirk?.... the first year he came into the playoffs he did not do well... how do you know jamison will do well? he never reached the playoffs before? i hope you are right though...

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 05:13 PM

what part of this is difficult to understand? NVE being a big game player is more myth than reality. NVE is what NVE is. he's a good player in the regular season and a good player in the playoffs. He's very inconsistent. Sometimes he looks like a star. Other times, he plays like sh*t. What do you end up with? You end up with NVE

for someone that steps up their game SO MUCH in the big games, i find it interesting that his playoff numbers are actually not as good as his regular season numbers. Sure, it's understandable that your numbers would go down slightly against better teams.

but, can we address the issue of NVE stepping up big in big games? He's the same player that he is in the playoffs as he is during the regular season. Yes, he had a wonderful run in the playoffs last year, but in the end, things will even out with him. They've proven that over his 60+ games playoff career, NVE is what he is. What is he? He's a good PG. He's a bulk shooter that is inconsistent. But, he is a good player.

Let's look at his playoff numbers compared to his regular season numbers...

MPG Reg.Season 34.7
Playoffs 37.3

FG% Regular season 40.7%
Playoffs 40.0%

3pt% Reg. Season 35.7%
Playoffs 32.5%

FT% Reg. Season 80%
Playoffs 74.3%

Rebounds Reg. Season 3.0
Playoffs 3.3

Assists Reg. Season 7.2
Playoffs 5.1

TO's Reg. Season 2.24
Playoffs 1.74

PPG Reg. Season 15.5
Playoffs 15.7

His numbers didn't exactly get better. Actually, with all of his shooting percentages going down and with his assists going down, you might say that his numbers actually went down slightly when compared to the regular season.

Like I've said, that's understandable. He's playing against better teams. However, this more than shows that NVE isn't a guy that consistently steps up during the big games. It helps to show that NVE is who he is in both the playoffs and the regular season

DrtyFlthyNasty · 10-13-2003, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB

Quote:

when big games come the percentage sky rockets

Actually this isn't the case. While Nick has had quite a few very good shooting performances in big games, he's had even more where he didn't shoot well at all. I still like him as a player, but he does have his faults and shot selection is one of them.

agreed... id say the same about other players on this team as well. players take shots because they know they can make them. while other players hide from the ball. luckily this mavs team has players to take them.

Murphy3 · 10-13-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

ok soo if nicks good games and bad games were dead even.. how well did you think nash played or fin and dirk?.... the first year he came into the playoffs he did not do well... how do you know jamison will do well? he never reached the playoffs before? i hope you are right though...

this makes little sense at best.
yes, fin and nash have struggled at times in the playoffs. But, at the least, they've performed better than NVE. There's no reason to even discuss Dirk

LRB · 10-13-2003, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

ok soo if nicks good games and bad games were dead even.. how well did you think nash played or fin and dirk?.... the first year he came into the playoffs he did not do well... how do you know jamison will do well? he never reached the playoffs before? i hope you are right though...

this makes little sense at best.
yes, fin and nash have struggled at times in the playoffs. But, at the least, they've performed better than NVE. There's no reason to even discuss Dirk

sure there is a reason to discuss Dirk. Dirk is a prime example of a superstar WHO DOES step it up in the playoffs.